Snider-man Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Andrew's 10-cart-only thread got me to wondering about something and I want the opinions of the folks on the board. Suppose someone designed a 2600 game that was fully fleshed out, tested, debugged and running. Doesn't matter what game - let's call it "BoogerQuest." Now then, the game is burned on cart and is available here and there for $20. Never any shortages and anyone can get one who wants one. In fact, there was never a "number edition" or "boxed edition." All carts are the same and plentiful. That said, let's assume the programmer does NOT want the ROM to be released. Ever. The game is available only on cart and that's it. And, to head off this arguement, let's say that the code is available to other programmers so they can pick up whatever tricks they can from the code. However the game image is not to be released in any other way, shape or form. This begs the question - Who would be pissed by this? Who would be fine with this? Who could care less? And why? I curious as to opinions that vary from the old "I want to try before I buy" argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeybastard Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I would be fine with it. It's the programmers work and he/she should decide how it's used and distributed. They don't "owe" anything to community. I do prefer to see the stuff in general release but it's not my call to make. I'm too dumb to program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cybergoth Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Hi there! One word: Ebivision Greetings, Manuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess Ragan Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I'd personally prefer that the game was available in ROM format. I can't fairly hold a grudge against anyone who won't make their games available for emulators, as long as they make them accessible in some way. A lot of 2600 game programmers do this, including Paul Slocum and the founders of Ebivision, and they do have that right. However, I really appreciate it when the designer is generous enough to let everyone have a taste of their work. Even if they only released a demo of their game in ROM format, it would be something. JR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NE146 Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Now then, the game is burned on cart and is available here and there for $20. Never any shortages and anyone can get one who wants one. All carts are the same and plentiful...And, to head off this arguement, let's say that the code is available to other programmers You realize that in that scenario, it doesn't matter what the programmer wants, because by the nature of the net a rom WILL be released either by some anonomous cart owner, or someone who simply compiles the code. This begs the question - Who would be pissed by this? Who would be fine with this? Who could care less? And why? Well as a person who jumps on any rom as soon as it's out, I'd probably best answer by saying.. I've never understood people who get "upset" or "pissed" when a roms not available. Who cares?! If it is then it is. If it isn't, then you never had it in the first place so what's the big deal. Personally I really don't give a hoot.. but having said that, believe you me if a rom was released, I'd be the first to click on it, and file that sucker away in some obscure directory You just takes what yous can gets.. and aside from that, why worry. It's all good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 Hi there! One word: Ebivision Greetings, Manuel I have some of the ROM dumps for Ebivision games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeybastard Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I have some of the ROM dumps for Ebivision games. From what I've seen on these boards cpuwiz' date=' you seem to have [i']everything[/i] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 LOL, I wish. I do happen to own some of Ebivision carts so I naturally have the images. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Slocum Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I haven't released the Marble Craze ROM, although I will release it at some point. Here's why I haven't in decreasing order of importance: 1) It doesn't emulate well at all. It won't even run on any emulators except Z26, and even if it did, the others don't support the control scheme. You can play it on Z26 with the mouse but it's pretty much impossible. Also the shading flicker is designed to take advantage of characteristics of TVs and looks particularly bad under emulation. 2) IMO, it's more exciting to play a homebrew that isn't so easily acquired. There's a bit of mystery about it which makes it seem more official or something. Playing under emulation of even on the Cuttle Cart de-mystifies it a bit I think. 3) I do think games sell a little better if the ROM is not available, and I worked my ass off on that game and dealt with a lot of hassles in putting it out. -Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Atari Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 I think NE1 summed it up pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oesii Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 It's totally up to the author to release the rom or not, if I liked the previous games from the designer or if the screenshots and reviews of the game were positive I would buy the cart. Seems like it should be two different issues, one is the game is physically available on cart which is great for retrogamers with real hardware. And secondly, if the game rom was available then it becomes more of a freeware/shareware situation where people can play it for free on emus and possibly decide if they want to buy the cart for their Atari. Two different situations that can be mutually exclusive I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsoper Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 If you made carts with some weird new undocumented bankswitching method, people would never be able to anything even if they had the ROM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oesii Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 If you made carts with some weird new undocumented bankswitching method, people would never be able to anything even if they had the ROM. Yeah all those copy protection schemes worked for the Atari and C64 computers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyXB Posted January 3, 2003 Share Posted January 3, 2003 If you can always buy the cart, then its no problem. You can then alway buy the game here on AtariAge, when you want it. You need no ROM for it. But if this is a Limited Edition, where only a few release (like the new Fighting Game from Andrew, only 10), then I would like to see a ROM, for all, who can't get one from the 10. Or make an extra run with unlimited cartridges. I think Limited Edition are good for collectors, but 10 is not enough for all Hardcore Collectors. 50-100 are good. And then maybe release the ROM, or make an unlimited Version. Then you can always buy it here on AtariAge. This is good for all collectors I think. The biggest Fans always get a Limited Edition, and all other who like the games, can get the unlimited version. But only 10 and then never again something from that it very very bad. And I think most will mad about this. This is no good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 I came to the homebrew scene after Edtris had already come and gone, and I didn't have too much trouble obtaining a copy. What would be funny is if some homebrew programmer who put the "no distribution" stipulation on his game got all indignant when his 4,096 bytes started making the rounds, and maybe even Quit the Scene® in a Petulant Frenzy. The way that you people who'd pay someone actual money for Chase the Chuckwagon feel about having as many carts as possible.... I feel the same way, but only about the bits. I'm sure I've chewed someone out for bragging that they had something and wouldn't release it at some point in the past, but more because of the bragging part. However, as I posted on stella-list when a topic like this came up some time ago, there's a non-trivial but effective way to render this whole debate moot: put value-added hardware on your cart. If you're really serious about wanting people to buy the real thing, put your time, money and effort where your mouth is. It took years for the emulators to be able to play Pitfall II, for example, and I seriously doubt the emulator authors or homebrew RAM/flash cart makers will ever want to piss you off enough to, say, emulate your game's speech synthesizer or 16MB of bankswitched ROM containing machine-generated kernels for 4,096 different screen configurations Whether he intends it or not, Paul's game ideas almost fall into this category just by virtue of the various emulators' comparatively poor handling of anything but the joystick. More power to him, I say, and I could see myself doing something similar in the future for similar gameplay-related reasons, but it won't stop his game from floating around the net. I just ordered a pair of paddles off of ebay just so I could buy Marble Craze and actually play it, but I'll certainly grab the inevitable dump of the final version when it appears as surely as I'd grab Ebivision Pac-Man, or the Starpath games back when the Stella disc couldn't be had at any price. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaManFan Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 It's the programmer's code, it's the programmer's choice. Nuff said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJr Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 It really makes no difference to me. I sometimes try before I buy, but most of the time I just ask around and see what the buzz is before I invest in a game (but at 20 a pop, they aren't THAT expensive even if you did get a clunker). There is an instance in which I would REALLY REALLY appreciate ROM releases, but I can't talk about it until the middle of the month (just trust me on this one) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moycon Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 I'm in the "don't care" as long as the cart is available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Slocum Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 I do try to make homebrews that don't emulate well. I like to make homebrews that take advantage of the magic of the console --something you can't easily experience on modern hardware. This is also true of the Synthcart. Z26 audio emulation is really good, but it's still not quite the same. And nothing compares to the nice audio compression you get when you crank up the Synthcart on an old TV. Good two player games and paddle/driving controller games are generally not going to be nearly as good (or even playable) under emulation. Keyboards are emulated pretty well unless you need overlays like Basic Programming. Then there's also stuff that's you simply have to run on the console like Video Time Machine. That would be pretty silly on an emulator! -Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubersaurus Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 Man I wish we could see ebivision pac-man released. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Stilphen Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 Only releasing the ROM to a select few (programmers, reviewers) is not only unfair, it will create yet another dividing factor in the community (it's already happened with prototype games) - you're basically saying some people are "worthy" of having it while others are not. Homebrew authors certainly have full say in whether or not they want to release the ROM to their games. However, saying that releasing the ROM will hurt sales has been proven to be very minimal, if at all. Those who buy the cart version do so b/c they want it on cart, and would buy it anyway regardless if the ROM is available or not, and you don't see them selling their carts if the ROM becomes available afterwards. And the excuse that the game is not the same on a real system via a Cuttlecart (or similar device) is absurd (and a bit insulting to Chad) - sorry, but there's no difference there. If you wanted to satisfy the "try before buy" crowd, you could release a demo or limited version ROM, much like shareware. As for prototype games (which are always an undercurrent in these types of discussions ), my stance is - these games were designed for the public to enjoy, not just one person, or a select few. Unfortunately, there are a few ROMS out there now that already fall into the later category. The game should be made available, whether or not the current owner decides to pursue having carts made; nobody can demand that, but morally it's the right decision. And owners who hide behind the excuse of "I don't have the legal right to release..." are the biggest hypocrites going - as if they have the legal right to own the game in the first place! Makes me wonder how a programmer would feel knowing that a game they spent a good deal of time creating - and to which even they don't have a copy of - learn that only 1 copy exists, and the person that has it refuses to release it (in any format). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 Of course it's the programmer's choice. Which doesn't change the fact that if I ever get a copy of Ebivision Pac-Man it's going on alt.binaries.emulators.*. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Slocum Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 Only releasing the ROM to a select few (programmers, reviewers) is not only unfair, it will create yet another dividing factor in the community (it's already happened with prototype games) - you're basically saying some people are "worthy" of having it while others are not. I've never refused any of my ROMs to anyone who's ever asked for any of them. However, saying that releasing the ROM will hurt sales has been proven to be very minimal, if at all. That's why its at the bottom of my list. But my opinion is that it does affect sales to some extent. And the excuse that the game is not the same on a real system via a Cuttlecart (or similar device) is absurd (and a bit insulting to Chad) - sorry, but there's no difference there. For me it's not. It's not the same as getting a new cartridge in the mail with a nice label and glossy instructions, maybe even a box, and holding it in your hand. And I really don't think Chad's going to be too insulted since I've raved about the Cuttle Cart and he knows I do all my development on it. -Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubersaurus Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 No kidding..I got both thrust and vault assault even though I have the cuttle cart too, just because I like the games so much. It's really just a very fun advertising device to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanJr Posted January 4, 2003 Share Posted January 4, 2003 Speaking of the Cuttle Cart, its kind of sad that there are not more to go around, although personally I have no use for one. Why did he stop producing again? Was it too involved to be produced efficiently? I forget. Oh and I agree with Paul (no insult to Chad intended) that there is still some mystique to having the cart itself and playing it. I think it has something to do with the idea that you are playing totally on obsolete technology. There is no link to the modern era of video games. Like going back to the 1950's and asking for a Pepsi Free, but then actually getting it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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