Small comparision

[Heaven/TQA]

and raster fx for depth impression is the same like Yoomp is doing... sorry... I have to say that...

[TMR]

It is an ego view game, doing 360° tile zooming to show depth movement. But it isn't simply using some Raster FX to show some depth impression.

 

Thing is, it really isn't doing any tile zooming (360 degrees or otherwise) because all of the perspective is pre-calculated and there's literally no Z calculation taking place anywhere whilst the game is running. Essentially it's shifting the two dimensional array used for texture and then mapping that to screen through the movelist, which is another two dimensional array of pointers that specifies where in the texture array each pixel gets it's information.

 

A Trailblazer engine has something akin to a movelist as well, it's texture array is only a couple of bytes wide and probably about eight high depending on the engine but the principle is similar.

 

Following your definition, the PC also uses only a movelist.

 

That's not a logical progression, just because heaven says that Yoomp! uses a movelist you can't infer that he's saying all games producing a similar effect are employing one as well; some 8-bit wireframe games rely on pre-calculation but that doesn't necessarily imply that Mercenary does. That said, some PC games do indeed rely on a movelist and i'm relatively sure that some AGA Amiga games like Virtual Karting are using an extended variation on that theme.

[Heaven/TQA]

yes... it is definition...

 

Elite is a 3d-game, Stunt Car Racer is a 3d Game, Mercenary is a 3d-Game... Maybe even Alternate Reality is a 3D game... maybe Star Raiders... Rescue on Fractalus/Koronis Rift/Eidolon... imho little bit Ballblazer.

 

inmho Yoomp is not a 3d game at all... the Player moves in 1 Axis only... X-axis... the tube is a 2d plane in memory... so Yoomp could be ported to 2600 with top-view and the game mechanics would be the same.

 

aehm... I ment no "z-axis" movement... not "only x-axis"... that would be valid for Trailblazer.

[oky2000]

"Crappy games" - well, no sprites, much lesser ability to do scrolling or set the screen base.

 

It's more the problem how it was used, and as it seems, it has been locked by the programming ROM (OS).

Because several stuff is possible, just like full overscan, hardware scrolling , and interlace.

The chip is also way faster connected than the MSX.

 

Just a reminder:

 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQfZsoN4wrU[media]

 

Fullscreen (incl. overscan) hardwarescrolling , and no tearing in sight .

 

This game only runs if you replace CPC roms with FutureOS roms hence overscan. Screen is clearly soft scrolled ST style too. Double buffered due to >64kb and FutureOS rom memory management.Impressive but not really a stock CPC game.

[oky2000]

We all may know this one:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b1z981CroQ

 

 

Check this one from CPC , it's the closest comparable demo.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTBjuX4EYIY

 

8 Bit 3D .

Pure CPU power (4MHz) vs. 1.79MHz CPU with Coprocessor.

 

 

What do you think?

 

They are rendering completely different things, it's like comparing how fast Starglider 2 renders surface of planet on Amiga vs tunnel sections on ST and saying which is the faster version of the game!

[sack-c0s]

I suppose if you are willing to drop a few requirements and cut the odd corner*, and have an expanded memory source then this is possible on the C64

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwq-l4HeeNk&feature=player_detailpage#t=15s

 

 

 

 

*Interactivity being one of them...

Edited December 2, 2011 by sack-c0s

[Heaven/TQA]

http://www.retrogamer.net/show_image.php?imageID=4290

[emkay]

It is an ego view game, doing 360° tile zooming to show depth movement. But it isn't simply using some Raster FX to show some depth impression.

 

Thing is, it really isn't doing any tile zooming (360 degrees or otherwise) because all of the perspective is pre-calculated and there's literally no Z calculation taking place anywhere whilst the game is running. Essentially it's shifting the two dimensional array used for texture and then mapping that to screen through the movelist, which is another two dimensional array of pointers that specifies where in the texture array each pixel gets it's information.

 

 

 

It isn't calculating the tile zooming. That's right. But it does graphically the "Tile zooming" , which is the only important part to the player of the game. And every tile has it's "mark" , what the ball has to do, and what not, which means, there is a basic depth calculation.

Edited December 2, 2011 by emkay

[emkay]

This game only runs if you replace CPC roms with FutureOS roms hence overscan. Screen is clearly soft scrolled ST style too. Double buffered due to >64kb and FutureOS rom memory management.Impressive but not really a stock CPC game.

 

The Future OS ROM doesn't change anything of the Hardware.

[emkay]

I suppose if you are willing to drop a few requirements and cut the odd corner*, and have an expanded memory source then this is possible on the C64

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwq-l4HeeNk&feature=player_detailpage#t=15s

 

 

*Interactivity being one of them...

 

Controlling such movies with the REU as "streaming device" , it could be possible to make it playable up to some "Rebel Assault" interaction.

[Heaven/TQA]

I suppose if you are willing to drop a few requirements and cut the odd corner*, and have an expanded memory source then this is possible on the C64

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwq-l4HeeNk&feature=player_detailpage#t=15s

 

 

*Interactivity being one of them...

 

Controlling such movies with the REU as "streaming device" , it could be possible to make it playable up to some "Rebel Assault" interaction.

 

Yeah... or Mega CD games with crappy colors... psst... Karolj... psst... don't tell something regarding c64 colors for "real pics"

[potatohead]

Star Raiders is a 3D engine.

 

The sprites are used to display objects, so there is that shortcut, but the explosions are 3D, and the nice slow down from the unoptimized math makes the game experience great. A good example of unintended game play feature!

 

Re: YOOMP! 2600

 

Well, orient the tube horizontally, so vertical "sodding rainbows" could be used to convey a shaded section view! *BAM* 2600 3D!

 

I actually think such a port, no matter how it's projected would be kind of fun.

[potatohead]

It isn't calculating the tile zooming. That's right. But it does graphically the "Tile zooming" , which is the only important part to the player of the game. And every tile has it's "mark" , what the ball has to do, and what not, which means, there is a basic depth calculation.

 

But that's only 2D. The "3" in 3D means having three dimensions, not two, thus the characterization of "2D" being appropriate for YOOMP! Fine game, but not a 3D game. It looks 3D, which is part of the art of it. Nicely done too!

 

What the dimensions actually are isn't relevant. Having X and Z is 2D, just as having X and Y, or Y and Z is.

Edited December 2, 2011 by potatohead

[TMR]

It isn't calculating the tile zooming. That's right. But it does graphically the "Tile zooming" , which is the only important part to the player of the game.

 

 

But we're not talking about players, you wanted "8 bit computers being able of showing real 3D" and Yoomp! was introduced as an example of a game that is mistakenly believed to be real 3D; if any game that fooled players into believing it was in 3D counted, we'd need to discuss Trailblazer or Elektraglide because they've both managed that in the past.

 

And every tile has it's "mark" , what the ball has to do, and what not, which means, there is a basic depth calculation.

 

That'd be a painfully long-winded way to handle collisions when the level is stored as a two dimensional map internally and the collisions can be checked with more speed and accuracy just by reading the line or column representing the tiles under the ball.

Edited December 2, 2011 by TMR

[TMR]

http://www.retrogame...hp?imageID=4290

 

Yeah, i get blamed for everything i do... =-)

[oky2000]

This game only runs if you replace CPC roms with FutureOS roms hence overscan. Screen is clearly soft scrolled ST style too. Double buffered due to >64kb and FutureOS rom memory management.Impressive but not really a stock CPC game.

 

The Future OS ROM doesn't change anything of the Hardware.

 

It allows overscan to remove border for a start.

[emkay]

This game only runs if you replace CPC roms with FutureOS roms hence overscan. Screen is clearly soft scrolled ST style too. Double buffered due to >64kb and FutureOS rom memory management.Impressive but not really a stock CPC game.

 

The Future OS ROM doesn't change anything of the Hardware.

 

It allows overscan to remove border for a start.

 

The only question there, since overscan is a function of the chip, why have they blocked it? I guess there is some limitation, just as the SIO on the Atari has been limited, and you have to rewrite parts of the rom to allow changes.

And , btw: The chip HAS hardwarescrolling features with the character set.

Edited December 4, 2011 by emkay

[emkay]

It isn't calculating the tile zooming. That's right. But it does graphically the "Tile zooming" , which is the only important part to the player of the game.

 

 

But we're not talking about players, you wanted "8 bit computers being able of showing real 3D" and Yoomp! was introduced as an example of a game that is mistakenly believed to be real 3D; if any game that fooled players into believing it was in 3D counted, we'd need to discuss Trailblazer or Elektraglide because they've both managed that in the past.

 

A 2D game with a jumping object is 3D? Interesting. In Trailblazer the Y movement is irrelevant, same with Elektraglide. 2D is 2D, alike from which point of view. Both are ego view 2D, just looking 3D.

 

The Ball in Yoomp is turning 360° freely and every tile acts in it's degree and depth.... circle exact (Depending on the monitoring device ) So X, Y, and Z coordinates were relevant. Even if the 3D is thin as a paper, it is acting 3D.

Edited December 4, 2011 by emkay

[emkay]

Ego view 3D is quite different. Just like in Encounter, when shots can come from "all" directions, and get reflected on the pillars.

 

Many people even claim Wolfenstein 3D isn't really 3D, or Duke Nukem 3D, because of the projection type.

Well, a point to argue ...

[emkay]

Games like Zaxxon earned to be named "Iso" 3D, because of the relevant x,y,z position

[TMR]

In Trailblazer the Y movement is irrelevant, same with Elektraglide. 2D is 2D, alike from which point of view. Both are ego view 2D, just looking 3D.

 

And that's what Yoomp! is doing too; the ball has an X and Y value which are translated to angle and radius for the display (which may well be done with pre-calculated sine tables) and the Y value is relevant for both Yoomp! and Trailblazer because it governs when a collision check is needed; in both cases the ball's X and the current map position are used to see what the ball is sitting, it'd be something of a stretch to say that's a Z co-ordinate, but if it were asserted it can't be only for one of the two games or indeed the bouncing balls in Elektraglide.

 

Games like Zaxxon earned to be named "Iso" 3D, because of the relevant x,y,z position

 

Yoomp! isn't dealing with X, Y and "Z" at the same time whilst isometric 3D games like Zaxxon or Head Over Heels are.

Edited December 4, 2011 by TMR

[potatohead]

Imagine a simple paper tube, like what you see on toilet paper, or for kitchen foil. If you were to put points at various places on the tube, those points have coordinates in 3D space, right? All of X, Y and Z are represented in those point coordinates, but it's a projection.

 

To understand the projection, make a cut in the tube, unroll it, and now you have those same points in 2D. That's what YOOMP! does.

 

You can actually do this with a real tube. It's instructive.

 

There is an elevation, or state indicating whether or not the ball is in contact with the tube too. One could consider that a "Z" coordinate, or just a state too. There isn't any real positioning there, just state info, ball in contact, ball in bounce state.

 

Maybe 2.5D, which is a common machine tool designation where there is elevation, but not any real control. 3D or 3 axis means having motion in all three dimensions, not just a state, such as cutting tool engaged, cutting tool disengaged, or ball in bounce, vs ball in contact as YOOMP! does.

 

Now, take your cut tube and a ruler. Place the ruler over the cut tube. That's your axis of player motion. The tube would slide under the ruler, and a simple comparison between the player ball, when it's in the touch state, not bounce state, determines whether or not the player is in the right place to advance. If so, motion continues, if not, game over.

 

The player really only gets one dimension of movement. The game manages the other one.

 

So, it's not really 3D.

 

As for Wolfenstein, the player doesn't have motion in all three axis, nor is there targeting in all three. I wouldn't call Wolf3D a real 3D game. The whole contest happens in two dimensions, projected into three because it looks cool! But, you could take WOLF3D, and project it onto a top view map, and have the player moving in X and Y, enemies also X and Y, and it all works just fine. Nothing is missing, just projected differently.

 

DOOM is a hybrid. The player does have motion in three axis, but only at specific times. Enemy action is still a 2D affair, as there is no real freedom to target things, with differences in elevation managed by the game engine.

 

QUAKE is 3D, as all dimensions are significant.

 

That's my take on it.

 

BTW: The trackmania movie on C64 looks fab!

Edited December 4, 2011 by potatohead

[TMR]

To understand the projection, make a cut in the tube, unroll it, and now you have those same points in 2D. That's what YOOMP! does.

 

You can actually do this with a real tube. It's instructive.

 

i like your description better... i'm off to cut up cardboard tubes! =-)

[potatohead]

LOL!!

 

Yeah, it works! I happen to deal with projections of various kinds all the time. (engineering mechanical cad drawings are typically filled with them, and machine tool codes are often the product of them)

[potatohead]

BTW: "ISO" is a very specific mode of projection.

 

http://en.wikipedia....tric_projection All dimensions are significant, however some information is lost reducing it to 2 dimensions... The YOOMP! and WOLF3D projections actually work the other way, adding context and information that isn't really a factor in the contest, but does add illusion and appeal.

 

In the lower right corner of that page, they discuss the information loss; namely, it's possible to see the shape in two or more ways. This is because multiple 3D scenarios all reduce to the SAME 2D projection. In manufacturing, it's a common error to form the mirror image of the desired part, due to this.

 

One other thing about 2D projections. Motion, or changing the camera view dynamically often helps people to better visualize the 3D information. CAD systems offered this capability early on, as more complex shapes are often difficult to visualize from an ISO. In older games, such as Elite, the motion helped the player to visualize the scene. As hardware advanced, we got lights and textures and surfaces (polygons in games, real NURBS in CAD) that help to clarify what is projected, and things like inside and outside.

 

Heh... somebody should do a 2D wolf, played on a map, with the 3D projection in a little window off to the side. The player could be running the 2D contest, while onlookers could just view the action in 3D...

Edited December 4, 2011 by potatohead