Mine Comparison

[José Pereira]

Why I still think that A8 can do nice beautiful 2D taking advantadge of it's Palette and PRIORs?

 

Take a look at this awful C64 version of the game Switchblade:

Now a questions to some of the expert(s) here :

"Why that it is like that, so anwful and why there isn't better sprites/Colour Map/...?"

Yes, why?

I want to know... Indeed I want to see how some knowledge guy(s) here can look at a video, see the reasons why and post them here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS1RW8aPHsY

 

Now, about A8:

I know that we can have this:

Just taking advantage of A8 PRIORs I can get the Masks better than C64 is doing.

And I can explain why, but first I also would like that some interested may post why I am saying this or, at least, what I am doing here...

And why the guys can go behind those Bins (and other gfxs on other screens of this game...)?

Why here I can Mask the guys, PFs only and no need to Mask the guy PM?

 

 

Answers please

Thanks.

Edited December 3, 2011 by José Pereira

[Rybags]

The priority thing might be the reason for lack of colour. Or it might just be that the game's a port from another system.

 

It's most likely doing masking of the sprite data to accomplish the front/behind various objects which costs memory.

 

Or it might use sprites but there's the memory thing again.

 

And if anything in the game is softsprite, then you have the issue of colour clash but if everything has constant colour then that's not a problem.

 

 

Regardless of all that, in character multicolour mode on C64, it's 3 fixed + 1 independant colour per cell, and you're limited to only 8 colours among the independants... or in this case 7 since Black is used as background.

 

Does this game use character mode - no idea, too busy to run it and check.

 

 

ed - there's > 4 colours anyway. Maybe they packed the data and only use 2 bits to hold their colour info.

Or maybe they just didn't really care.

 

Not every commercial game is a labour of love, or an attempt to push the hardware to what the books say it can do.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Rybags

[José Pereira]

The reason why C64 it's so anwfull it's that...

Rybags I have to wait to someone wake up

But it's something that it's the first time I saw in C64...

Knowing the C64 ColourMap stuff (including that first 8colours only to use on ColourMap) and lots of screen gfxs that Mask the guys it is the reason they choose to go this way.

The thing of only possible first 8colours on the C64 Palette did all the awfull looking...

[Rybags]

Why do you have to wait for "someone to wake up" - all he'd say is how it'd look so much better in Gr. 7, then by the next page would be saying how it should be done using a 3D engine and that no other 8-bit could match it.

[José Pereira]

There are more people sleeping, why him?

And why do you think it's him?

Aren't you giving him so much importance?

[Rybags]

I wasn't bestowing any importance - it's just the norm in these threads of yours that he jumps in and throws those ideas around.

[José Pereira]

I wasn't bestowing any importance - it's just the norm in these threads of yours that he jumps in and throws those ideas around.

 

Please read the PM I sent you.

[Rybags]

You could have just posted that.

 

I've not played it so can't comment on what's being done, only speculate based on the video.

 

If I get time later, I'll post up some WinVice monitor command stuff that can be used to quickly work out what mode/sprites etc are in use.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Rybags

[José Pereira]

I want to see what others see in other versions, if they see the reality or are just going for fanboyism...

 

And when some answer(s) about C64 version comes then it would be time for me to discuss how I think I get the solution for a possible A8 version.

[andym00]

Lol, 64 in crap game shocker! Seriously though, a lot of games were just banged out because people wanted to make money, and pushing the envelope from a technological point of view makes development more complicated and riskier..

Only now when games are labours of love by people who don't have any financial interest can you explore every avenue..

As an example, in the time since the Silkworm demo surfaced and now, I have in that time frame started, completed, debugged and shipped whole games.. Because that's how long I had and my bosses would have been none too chuffed if I'd taken a month longer just to add some colour that doesn't actually make the game any better

 

[José Pereira]

Lol, 64 in crap game shocker! Seriously though, a lot of games were just banged out because people wanted to make money, and pushing the envelope from a technological point of view makes development more complicated and riskier..

Only now when games are labours of love by people who don't have any financial interest can you explore every avenue..

As an example, in the time since the Silkworm demo surfaced and now, I have in that time frame started, completed, debugged and shipped whole games.. Because that's how long I had and my bosses would have been none too chuffed if I'd taken a month longer just to add some colour that doesn't actually make the game any better

 

 

I know all that... But the thing here it's the way C64 version it's done...

It's not the crap it looks but the way, what they used instead of something common in all C64 games ...

Indeed, it's the only one I know in C64 builded this way.

 

It's this that I would like see if someone discovers.

If the coder could have it better or used other way it's another thing.

 

No one guess?

Edited December 3, 2011 by José Pereira

[Mclaneinc]

Switchblade I think was initially an Amiga game, as with most Amiga games at the time a C64 version was dutifully rushed out for launch. Ports of any kind in those days seemed rushed, when the first Atari ST games were pumped out you got a pretty dire port to the Amiga, Peter 'king of dodgy ports' Johnson could not even be bothered to use the built in fine scroll abilities of the Amiga so on his stuff you got screen flipping..

 

Towards the end of the C64's normal life I felt that most games were just an after thought, almost SEUCK made titles.

 

Still its nice to see that both the C64 and A8 camps stayed loyal and started to pump out some lovely titles later in life, the stuff I see on both machines these days is wonderful, the 11 C64 titles from a comp running at the moment are great and the titles from the recent A8 comp are also brilliant.

 

Well done to all involved and those in here that produce for us, Space Harrier on the A8...Never in a million years

Edited December 3, 2011 by Mclaneinc

[andym00]

Lol, 64 in crap game shocker! Seriously though, a lot of games were just banged out because people wanted to make money, and pushing the envelope from a technological point of view makes development more complicated and riskier..

Only now when games are labours of love by people who don't have any financial interest can you explore every avenue..

As an example, in the time since the Silkworm demo surfaced and now, I have in that time frame started, completed, debugged and shipped whole games.. Because that's how long I had and my bosses would have been none too chuffed if I'd taken a month longer just to add some colour that doesn't actually make the game any better

 

 

I know all that... But the thing here it's the way C64 version it's done...

It's not the crap it looks but the way, what they used instead of something common in all C64 games ...

Indeed, it's the only one I know in C64 builded this way.

 

It's this that I would like see if someone discovers.

If the coder could have it better or used other way it's another thing.

 

No one guess?

 

Looks like bitmap mode to me from the way it redraws, which if correct ,means they were free to do what they wanted with the colours within the usual limits.. Looking at the ST version, it has that same feel graphically, like maybe this was what the artist actually wanted to do ? The Amstrad version looks gross and green, and the Speccy version look, erm, spectrumy..

 

I also think you might find this looks rather different on a real TV.. I don't want to try and second guess what the programmer/artist were thinking when they did this, but Gremlin weren't the masters of tat, so I'd imagine it was a no accident it looked like that though.. Could be wrong though and it could all be rubbish because of a colour-blind artist or something, but given it looks good to me actually, and does the job nicely..

 

I am so looking forward to the day-glo A8 version

[José Pereira]

Why do you have to wait for "someone to wake up" - all he'd say is how it'd look so much better in Gr. 7, then by the next page would be saying how it should be done using a 3D engine and that no other 8-bit could match it.

 

The person we are expecting wake up, at least, 2 Hours ago, but he seems more interested in a A8 VS C64 War in atariOnline ...

Because of this and it seems that no one guess what's different in the way the C64 seems to have been be builded here it's the explanation (at least the way I see it):

 

The C64 is using soft sprites in all the guys.

It's the only C64 game I know that all the moving guys are soft sprites.

 

The game has 3common colours: Black and the two Grays.

The ColourMap on the guys it's Red.

 

All the gfxs that Mask the guys but have transparent where you can see the guys behind (vertical Pillars) you have there the same Red ColourMap colour.

The gfxs. that are solid ones and are totally in char boundaries they can be:

-> Only gfxs colours and can have a different ColourMap (like the Blue)

-> But also, some of them are Hardware sprites and there you can have 2Browns, for example.

 

And there's another anwfull thing:

The Metalic '/////' Floor uses a ColourMap and when the guy goes behind, on the transparent part you see that the guy no longer has it's Red skin colour but, of course, the new one...

Totally bad choosed as I cannot even see where are all the 8sprites used...

 

 

Now a question:

 

 

"Wouldn't be possible to get the guys as Hardware sprites and Mask them?"

Beeing a static screens game it could even get in the same way as MrSid did on Prince of Persia and using C64 Multicolour Bitmap it would look amazing.

Weren't games already doing some gfxs. Masking over Hardware Sprites (like in the recent C64 version of PoP?)

 

Last Ninja does this but only two guys moving around and here you can have, sometimes 4 guys on screen.

But like MrSid on PoP doing that for 1,2,3 or more guys it's the same routine, I think...

Edited December 3, 2011 by José Pereira

[andym00]

VIC can do the drawing and the masking for you in sprites.. No need for software drawing and/or software masking.. Although you'd be limited to 4 sprites per line, or some other method to split the masking sprites down the screen without a 1:1 sprite to mask-sprite relationship..

Unfortunately, very few games have ever used this approach.. Why ? I don't know.. There's no gotchas with it, just it's a weird use of the priority system and background:foreground priority relationship between sprites and the screen..

 

Edit: And to show this, I've just attached a simple example of this effect.. Along with the raster time required to do it

sprite_mask_poc.zip

[José Pereira]

O.k., there was a Bug in one of the colours... Something that in A8 PRIOR Mode I am using wouldn't work...

There is something that I will need to do like the C64 is doing...

 

Now for anyone interested in seeing the way I am thinking and show his disagreement, or ask how I think it can work, here you have:

G2F:switchblade_04_2.zip

XEX:switchblade_04_2.xex

 

Try to move (in your mind) all the guys around the screen, compare with the video, try to guess how Mask it's done in the gfxs that Mask guys...

Edited December 3, 2011 by José Pereira

[José Pereira]

_{Some small fixing because of a Colour clash...}

_{switchblade_04_2.zip}

_{switchblade_04_2.xex}

 

_{And I am just geting off some unecessary different chars and reduce the nº of total Chars that I am now confident that the Playing Area would fit in just 1Charset (including all the guys and shiftings) and 1 more Charset for the Status top and bottom areas.}

[TMR]

The C64 is using soft sprites in all the guys.

It's the only C64 game I know that all the moving guys are soft sprites.

 

The "norm" for the C64 is to work with hardware sprites just because it's the quickest option if you're working to a deadline, but programmers have been known to mix and match over the years; Spectrum conversions/ports usually work either in software sprites or using a hybrid, Head Over Heels and Karnov are all software sprites (the latter working to characters rather than bitmap) whilst Manic Miner uses hardware sprites but retains the pre-shifting on the animations so the sprites themselves only move in 8 pixel steps horizontally.

 

"Wouldn't be possible to get the guys as Hardware sprites and Mask them?"

Beeing a static screens game it could even get in the same way as MrSid did on Prince of Persia and using C64 Multicolour Bitmap it would look amazing.

 

It could've been done that way perhaps (and as andy says, there's a few other options using the hardware priorities that could've been considered too) but Mr SID had two years (and quite a bit more memory) to get [p]Prince of Persia[/b] looking that good whilst the poor sod converting Switchblade probably wasn't contracted for as many months.

[José Pereira]

What's the proof we can take from here?

 

-> C64 0.98Mhz can get the soft sprites then A8 same 6502/same instructions/sames cycles can handle the guys: POSSIBLE

-> C64 using Char-Mode then all the shifting stuff/... need then exactly same on A8 ANTIC4/cycles and Bitmap masking (LDA/AND/OR/STA): POSSIBLE

-> C64 it is gfxs and soft sprites masking only, A8 my way it exactly the same routine: POSSIBLE

-> A8 some more cycles lost because of some DLIs more the PMs, but C64 also have some static overlay Hardware sprites.

Even more A8 the 0.98->1.98 POSSIBLE

-> C64 have 256 chars on each charset but some of them are in Hi-Resolution Status top and bottom Areas.

A8 would need one more Charset, just for the Status Areas that would be 2KBs, but it's exactly the same as 256chars of 1 C64 Charset.

There are fixed chars/Tiles like the Walls/Rocks/Pillars on all screens, then some Objects/gfxs that are only on some screens and can be picked-up on the fly, same as the different Enemys.

On this screen that I am now fixing chars I am now with less then 110chars and I already have the shifting included, so, once again POSSIBLE

 

 

[emkay]

What's the proof we can take from here?

 

-> C64 0.98Mhz can get the soft sprites then A8 same 6502/same instructions/sames cycles can handle the guys: POSSIBLE

 

Right. As long as you don't try to move the players for overlay. And there is no scrolling, no parallax, not much moving objects at all.

 

-> C64 using Char-Mode then all the shifting stuff/... need then exactly same on A8 ANTIC4/cycles and Bitmap masking (LDA/AND/OR/STA): POSSIBLE

 

Limited "faces" of the moving objects helps.

 

-> C64 it is gfxs and soft sprites masking only, A8 my way it exactly the same routine: POSSIBLE

LOL "my way" ....

 

-> A8 some more cycles lost because of some DLIs more the PMs, but C64 also have some static overlay Hardware sprites.

Even more A8 the 0.98->1.98 POSSIBLE

A8 has around 1,2MHz available in that mode. Should fit for some additional PM positioning.

-> C64 have 256 chars on each charset but some of them are in Hi-Resolution Status top and bottom Areas.

A8 would need one more Charset, just for the Status Areas that would be 2KBs, but it's exactly the same as 256chars of 1 C64 Charset.

There are fixed chars/Tiles like the Walls/Rocks/Pillars on all screens, then some Objects/gfxs that are only on some screens and can be picked-up on the fly, same as the different Enemys.

On this screen that I am now fixing chars I am now with less then 110chars and I already have the shifting included, so, once again POSSIBLE

 

In this game, yes.

[José Pereira]

Emkay, I was expecting some problem that you see that it wouldn't work...

But how it wouldn't work if that's exactly the same thing C64 is doing with less cycles...

It would be strange if you see things where they don't exist, right ?

 

Now there's the usual problem: NO CODER!...

Edited December 3, 2011 by José Pereira

[TMR]

-> C64 using Char-Mode then all the shifting stuff/... need then exactly same on A8 ANTIC4/cycles and Bitmap masking (LDA/AND/OR/STA): POSSIBLE

 

The C64 is using bitmap mode right across the board, there looks to be a single buffer up at $e000 and everything is "blitted" into that space including the title logo and status bar.

 

-> A8 some more cycles lost because of some DLIs more the PMs, but C64 also have some static overlay Hardware sprites.

 

Unless you're playing to a point further than i am right now where things change (i don't like the game so i'm only rattling around the first ten or perhaps fifteen screens) there's no hardware sprites in use during play and my simulated AR6 reckons that sprite hardware is disabled during play.

 

-> C64 have 256 chars on each charset but some of them are in Hi-Resolution Status top and bottom Areas.

 

Again, "blitted" to bitmap so can be done from a 256 character set on the A8 if wanted - or go to characters and save about 1.2K of screen RAM and quite a few draw cycles when refreshing.

[José Pereira]

As long as you don't try to move the players for overlay

I can't understand this part...

What? Have 1Bin P0 on left and then a guy move to right and I place the P0 in the Bin on the right?

If this is what you are saying, no problem, I can Mask the Bins (and other things...) in all of the game screens.

If I was moving the P0&P1 then I wouldn'tget those PRIOR0 3colours beautifull Wood colouring.

[Rybags]

Seriously, Jose - you should at least PLAY these games before getting all excited and dragging everyone into it.

 

I just tried it in the emulator, and it's utter shite.

[José Pereira]

Quoting TMR:

Unless you're playing to a point further than i am right now where things change (i don't like the game so i'm only rattling around the first ten or perhaps fifteen screens) there's no hardware sprites in use during play and my simulated AR6 reckons that sprite hardware is disabled during play.

 

Now I see, why there are Bins with some strange different colours that couldn't be used if ColourMap permission of the first Palette 8 colours.

I was thinking that it might be Hardware sprites because the nº of Bins on screen in front of the guys aren't never 8...

And strange was that I first used Sprites/Char Ripper from StudioX64 and I didn't find any sprites...

Hmmm, I should had remember to see the Chars...

 

 

By the way, TMR, in Char Ripper I can get the gfxs of a game if it is in Bitmap Mode?