A Question of Homebrews

[atarilovesyou]

I think it's amazing that back in the day, one person could write an entire Atari game, from the ground up. And of course, back then it was feasible and actually made money. We all know the problems surrounding game development, but I think it's great that you can make some really great games for a system that's as old as the 2600.

 

But there's a reason why certain homebrews are better than others. I've purchased a few off the AA store and I'm really happy with them (Skeleton +, Medievel Mayhem, Ladybug) and at around 30 bux a pop, I'm more than willing to buy. But not all the homebrews have that kinda quality. There's all kinds of factors involved.

 

The problem is, and always has been, money. Who's gonna take that time when they've got a mortgage, kids to feed? And unfortunately, I think the only people with that kinda time on their hands are teenagers...or perhaps the uber-dedicated Atari homebrewers.

 

After being on this site for a while, I've been really excited about some of the new homebrews. While I realize they are a labour of love and not an actual money-making endeavour, I often wonder why a group of dedicated, intelligent programmers haven't formed to cater to our group of Atarifolks. Is the membership of AA really that small?

 

I ask because I'm a fan of the Angry Video Game Nerd, and he's developing a movie. Recently, he asked for his membership to donate what they could toward the production costs...and much to his surprise, he raised over $100,000!

 

My question is: is it the lack of funding? The lack of programming expertise? The lack of time to devote to such products? What is the reason that a bunch of folks haven't put together an Atari retro publishing house? My opinion, it's simply comes down to money: it's not worth the effort because it doesn't pay to do so. Is it that simple?

[+Propane13]

Well, homebrewing is an art-- the more time you put into it, the better you get.

And, while the "Nintendo generation" is kind of taking off, the Atari generation is really starting to die out.

 

For me personally, I've written/released a handful of tech demos and 2 games for the 2600.

I've got a few 7800 projects brewing as well, and hope to release one of them as a game this year.

You can check out my history-- I wrote "Pressure Gauge" in college, and 2-3 years ago released "Mean Santa" for the 2600.

 

Pressure Gauge is infantile and blocky. It has good gameplay, but it was my "first experiment", and I am proud of it.

With "Mean Santa", I was able to use new tricks I had learned over years of discussion with other programmers to make something better than my first attempts.

And, I'm happy with that one too, and realize that I can push myself even more.

To get to where I am now (which is nowhere near some of the greats on here) has taken me 12 years.

 

You are right about the dedication level necessary. Yes; I have a life, and am not a teenager. When I got married and moved across the country a few years ago, I took (over) a year off of programming. I've had spurts of motivation, and times where I just can't do it. But sometimes, I get motivated to wake up very early and put in 30 minutes to an hour of work a day into something that could be fun. It means that I get less sleep, but I sometimes crave the satisfaction of putting something new out there. Imagine doing that almost every day for a few months, and you'll see the dedication level required to get something out that's better than a newbie's first attempt. Don't get me wrong on that-- we're all happy here for the new blood we're getting as well. Some have managed to improve over time and become much more skilled in their releases, and that's awesome.

 

It is true that you don't program for a classic system for money. "Mean Santa" took a year on and off, and the money made comes back significantly less than minimum wage.

So, the only people who would program for this system would be the curious, and those who love the system.

 

So, in comparing to AVGN-- AVGN provides a lot of entertainment that crosses many platforms of games.

Even if you don't have a Fairchild Channel F emulator, you can see what he's talking about and laugh along with his rants.

All you need is a web-browser, or a friend with a web-browser.

 

In this community, it's different-- if we take the 2600 itself, it is a specific platform that requires one of 3 (or 4) emulators to use and play.

We can queue up a game in JStella and make it playable in a browser too, but at the end of the day, does the entertainment value match?

 

Well-- I think it's apples-to-oranges. Go ahead and download my game Pressure Gauge.

http://www.atariage.com/software_page.html?SoftwareLabelID=870

 

I spent a heck of a lot of time learning very hard assembly instructions, and getting myself a little game. It took a long time.

I experienced timing nightmares, graphics glitches, a frustrating assembly environment, and limited emulation support.

I had to climb over these to get a release, and the community was grateful when I could get something playable out there.

 

However, if you weren't there during its development, it probably looks like a crappy game of blocks, with a one-button interface that you lose almost instantly.

That's not something that the general public would appreciate, but at the time, the small band of Atari folks thought it wasn't a bad first attempt.

I'm guessing a random AVGN watcher might think my game is total crap, and even submit it to AVGN to get made fun of.

 

So, I think it has to do with appeal across the board. AVGN can be funny/amusing to many people across the globe.

Solving a complicated Atari challenge doesn't frankly mean to much to people outside of this little group, and 6502 programming is not a skill that's portable to Android or IOS devices, so growing your skills for the 2600 doesn't really translate to more money in the long run.

 

I've seen AVGN since the beginning, and he is growing his skills to make a movie, and then maybe someday, can use his skills to make his own independent films as a career choice.

And, I think people want to get on board with that to see what he can do.

 

For the 2600 programmer, our path is different. We can start by making a crappy game for the 2600, then make a better game for the 2600, and then um... well, there's nowhere to go. Maybe we can do some low-level chip validation code for Intel as a career-altering move, but this stuff isn't applicable to most software fields anymore. Is that globally cool? Not really. So, I guess that's why it's mostly the people that love this stuff and don't want it to die that are here.

 

-John

[atarilovesyou]

Great reply, thanks. That's the kind of information that I'm looking for. Good points about AVGN as well.

[Keatah]

The thing with minimum-wage jobs is that they benefit thousands of people daily in some tiny aspect, like a clean floor, or a burger with extra onions, or something like that. Homebrew software is different. Minimum wage or not, it benefits significantly less folks in a slightly more substantial way. The economies of scale are all reversed here.

 

As far as putting together a group of programmers, I doubt it would work. You'd need to pay them a lot more than minimum wage to work together. And then, if Atari found out about it they'd put a stop to it.

 

Atari made money back in the day from programming tiny 2k roms because there was nothing else like it. Today we have iPads and that 3D shit, not to mention kids that have attention spans measuring fractions of a second - there's no patience or time to master the fine art of, say, selecting the right base in Missile Command.

 

I'm sorry to say that in another 10-15 years, the folks that are keeping the Atari 2600 banner flying are going to start doing other things, their interests will turn to geriatrics and domestics and other more important issues. By then the 16 bitters will be in full swing and we'll see a renaissance there. The young folks of today will have zero interest in such an antiquated platform. There is no historical value in any aspect of 2600 gaming. And if they do - it may be 1 out of 25,000 folks.

 

The one place we won't see any sort of resurrection is in the PC gaming field. Either that, or it has yet to happen. The thing with PC's is that every modern PC is capable of running games of the 80's and 90's just fine. It's always been that way. Doom works fine on a 1992 80486 processor just as it does on an i7. There's no need for any nostalgia/revival cult. It never went away in the first place.

 

With the 2600 (and other classic games) we needed a whole new scene of emulators and roms, because, the original hardware did indeed go away. And we were luck to get it back! It's like winning the lottery!

[+5-11under]

There's been programmers who have tried to be "properly" paid for their work, but I don't think the stories ended well.

 

It's also tough to get more than one person at a time involved in projects like this.

[Keatah]

After being on this site for a while, I've been really excited about some of the new homebrews. While I realize they are a labour of love and not an actual money-making endeavour, I often wonder why a group of dedicated, intelligent programmers haven't formed to cater to our group of Atarifolks. Is the membership of AA really that small?

 

My question is: is it the lack of funding? The lack of programming expertise? The lack of time to devote to such products? What is the reason that a bunch of folks haven't put together an Atari retro publishing house? My opinion, it's simply comes down to money: it's not worth the effort because it doesn't pay to do so. Is it that simple?

 

To answer the 1st question directly, Yes, AA membership is pretty small.

 

The second question is a bit more complicated. But it's worth noting that programming a modern-game console is an affair spanning hundreds or thousands of people in various disciplines. Programming a 2600 game is a 1-man project. In some cases 2 people may work on a project.

 

The 2600 is too complex and limiting for mainstream programmers to get involved with, especially on a grand scale like a corporation. The returns (today) are almost non-existent because you are competing against the likes of facebook and internet porn and iphones and stuff like that. Sorry guys, our beloved 2600 isn't gonna compete well against those big institutions, like it or not.

 

Back then, programming the VCS and other home consoles might have been looked at as mainstream or something close. Pioneering. But today it is an obscure art.

 

But ultimately, the simple answer is the market just isn't there. It never will be either.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Keatah

[GroovyBee]

It's also tough to get more than one person at a time involved in projects like this.

 

There are teams working on 2600, 7800 and Jaguar titles.

[Keatah]

There's been programmers who have tried to be "properly" paid for their work, but I don't think the stories ended well.

 

That's right! Look at starcastle. All this subject is doing is generating hate and resentment. The author will need to sell 600 copies at $54.62, that isn't going to happen.

[atarilovesyou]

 

 

The one place we won't see any sort of resurrection is in the PC gaming field. Either that, or it has yet to happen. The thing with PC's is that every modern PC is capable of running games of the 80's and 90's just fine. It's always been that way. Doom works fine on a 1992 80486 processor just as it does on an i7. There's no need for any nostalgia/revival cult. It never went away in the first place.

 

 

 

Great points, I agree with much...but a small nitpick with the PC gaming. I wish that I could play my older games on my modern PC, but unless you know about computers, you can't just plug in a Doom CDrom from back in the day and have it work properly...I've tried, lol! In fact, I noticed that it wouldn't work that way when I tried playing Falcon 3.0 (flight sim) on a then-new Pentium computer...the machine was way too fast, the speed was all messed up. And I've been trying for years (admittedly not all that hard) to get my beloved Panzer General CDrom to work on my XP and Windows 7 machines...it just crashes. I'd love to play those old PC games, but for the most part, you need some knowhow or emulation to get the clock speed right.

 

I'm open for advice, though!

[Pioneer4x4]

To play OLD dos games, install "dosbox"!

It works great.

[atarilovesyou]

To play OLD dos games, install "dosbox"!

It works great.

 

Installed it, tried to play my Panzer General on CDrom, but it's telling me it requires Windows to run. Gah.

[eshu]

have you tried running it in compatability mode? - http://support.microsoft.com/kb/292533 for XP

[BladeJunker]

Well here's my 2 cents.

 

Other than an eccentric billionaire who funds 2600 homebrew projects are dependent on enthusiasts which has been mentioned is a minority usually older, employed, and quite frankly too tired at the end of day. From that standpoint our classic gamers need to take better care of themselves so they have more energy and can schedule at least an hour to dedicate to 2600 homebrew every day or at least every week. As a crusty old dude in the making myself this doesn't seem likely.

 

The next best scenario is to create new enthusiasts but that is dependent on bringing people in besides programmers, by that I mean pixel artists, musicians, and game designers. While the idea of a one man author is romantic and intrinsic to the 2600 hardware it shrinks the overall talent pool down significantly to just programmers with an interest in the 2600 which is again a minority.

This is what separates a 2600 game developer from all other platforms in that you can barely contribute unless you can actually write a kernel which isn't the case on other platforms. For example John Carmack when he coded the Quake engine gave the artists tools and a set of asset properties to conform to when building the models and textures, he didn't have them build paint programs, modeling programs, or define the 3D model vertices manually from the ground up.

 

I'm not a programmer, musician, or much of a game designer so all I can really talk about is pixel graphics but I'd say the tools are lacking to bring new people into the fold. Please don't think I dismiss all the work people have already put into tools for Playfield editors or Player sprite editors but I'm just saying they could be much better. Artists still draw 3 color Nes or C64 sprite designs and mockups on pixel art forums but most of them don't even want to try 2600 pixel work. I have some specific tools and rendering standards in mind but this isn't the post for that and I think I made my point.

 

If any code savy enthusiasts want to collaborate on some tools message me.

[Keatah]

This is exactly what we don't need. 2600 games need to remain a one-man show. Perhaps two from time to time on some really special projects. And anyways, with all the pixel artists and musicians and concept & layout designers, you still need someone to code the stuff. And the coders are in short supply. Because anyone can map out a ship with a few pixels or put together some bleeps and bloops.

 

All the tools we'll ever need are right here, we have them, and we have had them for years now. And these tools are lightyears ahead of what the original programmers had in the 70's. If someone needs special tools to work with the VCS then they are not of the "right stuff" for making a good VCS game in the first place! It would seem that if a snag in programming is hit, then messages are posted here, and folks work through it via discussion.

 

VCS programming is of a certain nature that does not lend itself teamwork other than the occasional collaboration and msg board discussion. It will probably stay that way, and I certainly hope it does.

 

As far as bringing new folks into the fold. It really depends on interest of the individual and if they are up to the task. It is commonly known that the VCS is the most difficult system to program for. And it is that same difficulty that keeps mediocrity at bay. If brute force is used (teamwork and special tools) then the results are pretty lame and quite visibly so.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Keatah

[Keatah]

Regarding Carmack and Quake and Doom.. Those games are major productions. The system on which those are played (mainly the PC) can and does benefit significantly from art and music. The PC is a high-enough-fidelity system that can display and transmit the subtleties of each artist and musician. The VCS cannot, and should not. The VCS showcases the skill of the coder. There is not enough "resolution" in VCS works to transmit artistic personalities in the same way the PC does.

 

Part of the appeal of the VCS is that it is more or less a "generator".. The programmer creates code that synthesizes the game on-the-fly. Whereas in the PC and modern consoles, the programmer is like a director and sequencer - the PC merely plays back data from bitmaps and wave files. Not much is computer generated, to use the phrase.

 

Strip away all the fancy graphics and sound effects and you're left with a few hundred Kilobytes of gameplay logic. More in the strategy and MMO genres. And when you play 2600 games, you are interacting directly with the game program logic and the very heart of the machine.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Keatah

[GroovyBee]

This is exactly what we don't need. 2600 games need to remain a one-man show. Perhaps two from time to time on some really special projects. And anyways, with all the pixel artists and musicians and concept & layout designers, you still need someone to code the stuff. And the coders are in short supply. Because anyone can map out a ship with a few pixels or put together some bleeps and bloops.

 

I say let the developers do what they want to do. If they want to do the whole game as a "lone wolf" including code, sound and graphics let them. If they want to work as a team and let other people take care of graphics and sound then that is good too. If the developers want their game to fit into a 4K ROM or add additional hardware into the cart (from bank switching to batari's Melody) then that is all good too. Its called having fun and it should be what the hobby is all about.

 

All the tools we'll ever need are right here, we have them, and we have had them for years now. And these tools are lightyears ahead of what the original programmers had in the 70's. If someone needs special tools to work with the VCS then they are not of the "right stuff" for making a good VCS game in the first place! It would seem that if a snag in programming is hit, then messages are posted here, and folks work through it via discussion.

 

I disagree. Many programmers write their own tools to solve specific problems like generating data for look up tables used in their game. Since those tools are specific to a single game (very likely) there is no need to make them public.

 

VCS programming is of a certain nature that does not lend itself teamwork other than the occasional collaboration and msg board discussion. It will probably stay that way, and I certainly hope it does.

 

There is room in the hobby for every style of developer.

 

As far as bringing new folks into the fold. It really depends on interest of the individual and if they are up to the task. It is commonly known that the VCS is the most difficult system to program for. And it is that same difficulty that keeps mediocrity at bay. If brute force is used (teamwork and special tools) then the results are pretty lame and quite visibly so.

 

So projects like the AA Holiday carts and Harmony/Melody are lame are they? Odd, since they are both team projects that have been well received by the community. Trying to dictate what developers should and shouldn't do is a sure fire way of turning them off in my opinion.

[potatohead]

I say let the developers do what they want to do.

 

Exactly. That's the fun of this scene.

 

And there are lots of different skill levels too. We've seen good games from newbies working with Batari Basic, up through over the top quality titles written by dedicated programmers / pros. Too much formal structure and the secret sauce will go sour, and with that might come the wrong kind of attention too. Right now, it's all over the place, and low key. IMHO, that also helps things be permissive, which means more projects can complete without complications than not.

[+SpiceWare]

The PC is a high-enough-fidelity system that can display and transmit the subtleties of each artist and musician. The VCS cannot, and should not. The VCS showcases the skill of the coder. There is not enough "resolution" in VCS works to transmit artistic personalities in the same way the PC does.

 

While not "the same way", there's more than enough resolution in the VCS to transmit artistic personalities. Look no further than Medieval Mayhem for espire8's dragon and knight and moderntimes99's title screen music. Both contributions add tremendously to the appeal of the game, my mom makes the round winner dance to the music while the knight marches across the screen - no joke, and both are beyond my capabilities as my art is code, not graphics or sound.

[BladeJunker]

This is exactly what we don't need. 2600 games need to remain a one-man show. Perhaps two from time to time on some really special projects. And anyways, with all the pixel artists and musicians and concept & layout designers, you still need someone to code the stuff. And the coders are in short supply. Because anyone can map out a ship with a few pixels or put together some bleeps and bloops.

Dude the one man show is what we already have and the programmer isn't going anywhere he just becomes part of the team structure in what I propose.

 

All the tools we'll ever need are right here, we have them, and we have had them for years now. And these tools are lightyears ahead of what the original programmers had in the 70's. If someone needs special tools to work with the VCS then they are not of the "right stuff" for making a good VCS game in the first place! It would seem that if a snag in programming is hit, then messages are posted here, and folks work through it via discussion.

"The Right Stuff" mentality will only lead a tiny group of elite 2600 programmers that will likely fade away in the future as we all do. I've seen programmers collaborate very well on this forum but are the rest of us stuck being cheerleaders chiming in with nothing more than compliments and well wishes.

 

VCS programming is of a certain nature that does not lend itself teamwork other than the occasional collaboration and msg board discussion. It will probably stay that way, and I certainly hope it does.

I acknowledge the nature of 2600 programming being singular in nature in that it will naturally gravitate to that. My suggestion of adding more disciplines is actually one that will require effort to nurture not an easy task nor one that will take off easily so you have nothing to fear.

 

As far as bringing new folks into the fold. It really depends on interest of the individual and if they are up to the task. It is commonly known that the VCS is the most difficult system to program for. And it is that same difficulty that keeps mediocrity at bay. If brute force is used (teamwork and special tools) then the results are pretty lame and quite visibly so.

Again I think basic training on how a 2600 operates is essential to homebrew but realistically you will not garner many new people to add to the fold with exclusion of any kind. Every medium has its fair share of mediocrity it goes with the territory of having a "popular" subject matter.

[BladeJunker]

Regarding Carmack and Quake and Doom.. Those games are major productions. The system on which those are played (mainly the PC) can and does benefit significantly from art and music. The PC is a high-enough-fidelity system that can display and transmit the subtleties of each artist and musician. The VCS cannot, and should not. The VCS showcases the skill of the coder. There is not enough "resolution" in VCS works to transmit artistic personalities in the same way the PC does.

Can not, should not is an odd statement to make sir. As far as resolution admittedly the VCS doesn't have much but that doesn't mean you can't setup basic rendering frameworks based on those 6 objects with set limits that anyone could work within regardless of programming skill. I would never suggest anything high fidelity but many art styles are possible with even this most basic rendering.

 

Part of the appeal of the VCS is that it is more or less a "generator".. The programmer creates code that synthesizes the game on-the-fly. Whereas in the PC and modern consoles, the programmer is like a director and sequencer - the PC merely plays back data from bitmaps and wave files. Not much is computer generated, to use the phrase.

True the VCS is the most basic graphics and sound generator possible and yes everything is generated as you play it. However only a perfect individual has the right ratio of left and right brain thinking to get the most out of the VCS visually with good gameplay like David Crane did with Pitfall. Mostly its just that those people are one in a million or maybe even a billion that you can't depend on it to create popular content to grow interest in a gaming platform.

 

Strip away all the fancy graphics and sound effects and you're left with a few hundred Kilobytes of gameplay logic. More in the strategy and MMO genres. And when you play 2600 games, you are interacting directly with the game program logic and the very heart of the machine.

A beautiful sentiment based on some hard facts but I think the poster of this subject is looking for ideas to increase the likelihood of homebrew projects actually getting published, with everybody getting payed so more can be made now and into the future. What you suggest will only lead to an ever decreasing VCS legacy since much like legions, churches, or other clubs you can't have a syndicate without a population.

[RevEng]

While not "the same way", there's more than enough resolution in the VCS to transmit artistic personalities.

 

Totally agreed. If anything, the lack of resolution requires hyper-artistic tricks that most coders don't own.

 

I've studied sprite work from espire8, PAC-MAN-RED, and others... there's all kinds of really clever stuff like using the background to imply more color/structure, using motion to increase the perceived resolution, using a line of "shadow" to sneak in another color for eyes/belt-buckle/what-have-you, etc.

[atarilovesyou]

Lots of things to think about.

 

I think that perhaps one of the strengths of the older programmers (like the ones at Activision) is that they were 'one man shows', and since each person is quite unique, it translated to the games. If our hobby has a big strength, it's gotta be diversity of gaming experiences.

 

I think that if the current trend continues, homebrews will fade away. If I knew how to program, I'd certainly like others to be able to help with ideas, but I can see the difficulty in getting teams of programmers together when there's really nothing to speed up the process; from my understanding, you can't compartmentalize 2600 programming and game design.

 

I've got a lot of opinions on the homebrew scene here on AA, but one thing I don't do well is give praise when I don't feel it's warranted. There are plenty of games in the store which not only would I not buy, but I would review poorly. A bad game is a bad game...sure, it's harsh, but it's the only way to really get the good stuff out there. If a poor game is a prologue to a good game, then so be it. Not to bash one particular game, but the Astro games for Coleco....three versions, none of which I'd buy. Yes, they took a LOT of work, but at the end of the day, it's a good game that will stand the test of time.

 

One peeve of mine is when programmers rehash sound effects. Yes, I realize that there's only so many ways to make explosion sounds, but when certain sounds are used over and over again, it reminds me of that Wilhelm Scream from the movies (google it, it's funny stuff).

 

I would think that if there were a few guys who were dedicated towards supplying the scene with quality games, more would become interested in the hobby. Which is why in another thread, I ask how many members of AA there are....I would be spending a lot of cash on new GOOD 2600 games, for sure!

 

I'm also not a huge fan of games that rely on modern techniques to play on the 2600. I'm no expert, but something tells me that outboard memory or something is responsible for how awesome Medieval Mayhem looks and plays. That said, it's still an AMAZING example of taking an idea and running with it, and it's easily the best homebrew I own.

 

I'm not really into seeing arcade ports on the 2600 either...if I can play it on MAME, then why bother porting it? Unless it adds something really unique (like the new Boulderdash), I'm not interested...as a consumer, that is. For the art of it, I'm amazed at what some folks have come up with. I'm not big on hacks either.

 

With the Activision titles being so cool back then, it really makes me wonder what else could be done...or maybe it was all done? Now that video gaming has (like many other industries) become so genre based, it would take a gifted programmer indeed to come up with new gaming IDEAS, not just "heres another shooter" or "here's a pac man type game".

 

The last game I was really pumped about was Incoming! for the 2600...I still haven't picked it up yet, but mainly because I can scratch that itch with my Coleco Artillery Duel. Lead comes to mind, but for some reason I haven't pulled the trigger yet.

[potatohead]

Boy, that's a lot of setting expectations you've done there.

 

So, homebrew is dying because the games suck? You are aware that you don't have to BUY them right? And are you aware they don't suck to other people? Part of the hobby is making games and sharing them. People are doing that, and I swear "fun" is in there somewhere... it is for me, though reading a post like that might take some of the "f" out of "fun".

 

I like hacks. Many people here do. Sometimes we have contests, sometimes we make tools to help with that. Sometimes one of us just decides it could be a bit better and goes for it, getting help along the way.

 

I love all the Batari Basic games. Some of those have been excellent, and well beyond many people's expectations. Some of those are really basic too, but I'll bet the programmer working for it had a good time.

 

We've got people who do art, we've got people who write code, people who like to collect, participate in various ways, learn stuff, etc... Any one of those things can and does drive interest.

 

Sheesh.

[Keatah]

All worthwhile points..

 

Perhaps with the 2600 scene holding steady and not really increasing in "busy-ness" it is indeed best to let anything and everything go by.

[+Random Terrain]

I think a lot of 'classic' games, homebrew games, and batari Basic games suck, but I only like specific types of games. The game has to be fun and scratch something that itches in my brain and it wouldn't hurt if the game is replayable too.

 

I also think anything I do with batari Basic sucks because my standards are higher than my skills. All I can do is strive for excellence and try to make the most polished games that I can. Although I constantly disappoint myself, I'm still going to keep trying to make games. If you like them, play them. If you think they suck, then we're on the same page.