mos6507 Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Any opinions on how to do homebrew boxes? I am thinking it might be best to do them like a keepsake gatefold sort of thing. Make the boxes more heavy-duty so they won't easily crumple, and when you open it up, give it a sleeve for the manual and an inset section for the cartridge. If you make traditional boxes, if you intend to play the game then the box is going to just be this hollow thing up on a shelf taking up space and you still have to store your cart and manual. Other opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 down with boxes I've said it before and I'm saying it again. I'm just not interested enough in boxes to warrant the extra cost involved. Case in point, I recently purchased a "Crack'ed" and "Pick Up" from S.Kelly ( http://www.cgexpo.com/merch.html - both great games, BTW). I probably would have gotten a "Save The Wales" too but the additional $40 was just too much to spend. I can't help but to think that without the boxes the games would have been somewhat more affordable and, thus, more people would be motivated to pick the things up. At the very least, perhaps boxes could be offered as an option only for those customers who were interested in them. Just my two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 To each his own, personally I haven't picked up most homebrews because they don't have boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 The solution is obvious: Choice! But first you have to know the ratio between those who would buy boxed versions and those who don't (based on the price difference). Maybe a poll would help here, e.g.: How much more would you pay for a boxed version of a homebrew (hack, reproduction) game (nothing, $5, $10, $20, more)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 One of the reasons I bought your game TJ was because it has a really nice box (looks even better shrinkwrapped ). My take on it is that no matter what, a modern game shouldn't go above $50.00,- period. I made an exception and bought Mental Combat for $60.00 + and I am super disappointed with the box it came in because it's like paper. [boxes] [/boxes] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moycon Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Has anyone ever considered a generic high quality box with no printing on it? Later lables could be printed up on sticker paper and affixed to the box. That way all new games could use the same box but customize it to their game. Or maybe even a clamshell like the double DVD's use. Then all that would need to be printed later was a one sheet color graphic, that could be inserted. Of course that wouldn't be anything like the old Atari boxes...But I'd have to imagine the cost wouldn't be so high. And the end result could look very nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Hmm, you mean like the new Vectrex releases ... not a bad idea. [confusion] That item number you mentioned arrived and it kicks ass in conjunction with one of the item numbers I gave you. [/confusion] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moycon Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 Can you send a link to the new Vetrex releases? Not that I guess it matters, I sold my boxed , non-humming Vetrex years ago. Still I'd like to check out the boxes. I'm with CPUWIZ boxed games are cool. I agree though that the new games should have an option: $40 boxed with instructions. $20 loose. Or something along those lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 $40 boxed with instructions.$20 loose. Or something along those lines. At the risk of looking like a moron here (not that it would be the first time!), I have to say that I am sort of fond of homebrew instruction manuals. I don’t exactly know why I find them more interesting of an addition than a box would be but I just do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 I am thinking it might be best to do them like a keepsake gatefold sort of thing. Make the boxes more heavy-duty so they won't easily crumple, and when you open it up, give it a sleeve for the manual and an inset section for the cartridge. If you make traditional boxes, if you intend to play the game then the box is going to just be this hollow thing up on a shelf taking up space and you still have to store your cart and manual. We have done a lot of digging and research into box production, as we'd like to be able to produce high-quality boxes for many games. However, to make a run of professional-quality boxes is extremely expensive, and this is just for "normal" boxes, such as the ones we had printed for Thrust Plus (which are similar to in production to the Combat II, RealSports Basketball, Snow White, and Holey Moley boxes). I can't even imagine how much it would cost to do a gatefold-style box. Going the professional route, the printing for a large run of boxes has to be paid up front, and you'll generally end up with many more boxes than you can use since most companies have a minimum run they will do. So even if an individual box only costs $5, if you have twice as many boxes as you can ever use then your effective cost may be $10 or more per box. Now, there are alternatives. For instance, Moycon mentioned the generic box with a sticker on it. We have actually considered this, and getting a large run of generic, but high-quality "blanks" would be cheaper and easier to manage. You don't even necessarily need to use a sticker--you can glue on an external sheet and if you carefully apply and trim it, it might look good. But these would still look noticeably different from offset-printed boxes, and printing, trimming and applying the external sheet would be pretty time consuming. And there have been other alternatives, such as with Christopher Tumber's "Space Instigators", which comes in a VHS case, with a printed sleeve that fits in the clear insert on the outside. This is a fairly inexpensive solution that results in a professional appearance, but is obviously quite different from a "classic-style" Atari box. Lee Krueger released several games in clear, acrylic boxes with a nice insert that fits into the case. And a few people have produced printed boxes on their own, such as Cassidy Nolen for Polo, the Ebivision guys with their games, and Simon Quernhorst for Mental Kombat, with varying degrees of quality. At the risk of looking like a moron here (not that it would be the first time!), I have to say that I am sort of fond of homebrew instruction manuals. I don’t exactly know why I find them more interesting of an addition than a box would be but I just do. I also appreciate homebrew instruction manuals, which is one of the reasons we've been taking a lot of time and care to produce high-quality manuals for the homebrew games we're adding to our store. I'm not a big box collector myself, but I do collect and enjoy manuals (as well as the games themselves). ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 So, how about my poll idea (loose incl. manuals vs. boxed) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nathan Strum Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 I have a suggestion, although it's certainly not going to appeal to/work for everyone. But it's cheap. I specialize in cheap. Make a downloadable box. Create a PDF template that can be printed out, and used to cut out and form a generic, unfolded box from cardboard (such as gift boxes you can get for wrapping up clothes - it's thin enough to work with, white, smooth, and cheap). It'd probably have to be made in two halves, in order for most printers to handle it. Then, for each box, also have a PDF file that can be printed out in full-color on an ink-jet printer, and spray-glued onto the box. Then, the box can be folded and assembled with a hot-glue gun. For durability, you just use a little spray-on acrylic coating (aka spray-fix), and presto! Cheap, homebrew box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mos6507 Posted January 19, 2003 Author Share Posted January 19, 2003 How big can one print a sticker on a color laser printer? If you can print to full 8.5"x11 why can't the box be a cardboard "blank" and basically cover it entirely with full-size stickers? I know it would be time-consuming and exacting work, but I'd like to see how this might look. The Ebivision boxes didn't turn out that well because they just printed color inkjet and glued it to another sheet of paper to make it thicker. Very messy. But if you started with a sturdy "blank" gatefold box then after the stickers are applied, assuming the adhesive is a good one, it should hold up better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raindog Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 I have a pile of 8.5x11 labels (basically a whole page with no scoring/perforation) which I used to make my own cart label years ago. It's not glossy though, and I don't think unlaminated inkjet prints are acceptable as packaging to begin with. Of course there are also full-page laminating sheets which could take care of that, but would make the box tougher to glue together. I've also experimented a little with spray shellac in lieu of laminating sheets but at the time (3 years ago, with an HP Deskjet 560) the shellac and the ink didn't get along very well. Plainly some variation on this theme can work because I have a number of PC game boxes (the kind with a separate lid, like a garment box) where the design was blatantly laminated on and the flaps folded underneath the lid. I've bought "limited edition" CD boxed sets that were much the same. I've put some thought into making my own boxes just as gags, but haven't come up with any really good short-run solutions yet. So I'll be interested in seeing what other people come up with too. Honestly, though, I haven't even wandered around a craft store to brainstorm yet. I have a feeling an acceptable solution is waiting at Michael's or Moore's. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moycon Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 They make sheets of sticker backed paper. That's what I was suggesting. I didn't mean just a sticker with the games name. I ment print out the front back and sides and afix them on a generic box that anyone can use. Of course like you said.... time consuming...And I dunno if that way would save much $$$ or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 My take on it is that no matter what, a modern game shouldn't go above $50.00,- period. I made an exception and bought Mental Combat for $60.00 + and I am super disappointed with the box it came in because it's like paper. Sorry, but my game is priced at 49 USD/EUR, the rest was postage. In the meantime I came to know more games priced around 45 or 50 USD (remakes like "Combat 2" aswell as homebrews like "Space Instigators Special Edition"). The additional postage makes them as expensive as my game. The cardboard used to print the boxes was the thickest paper available to print digitally. Using offset-printing would have meant even higher costs. I don't think that "it's like paper", I think that it can be compared to the quality of the SALU-boxes (Acid Drop for example). I liked to have that kind of box much more than having no box at all. I don't expect to produce printed boxes on my new game; well maybe a single one only for me. Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmeroid Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 I'm a big fan of boxed games - gives a more 'authentic' look. This is something that I've wondered about for some time now, but just how thick or rigid can the paper/card be & still go through a printer? Can anyone tell me what level of resolution has been used for the reproduction boxes/manuals? I'd really appreciate any help with this one. I created a bitmap with the dimensions of just the front panel of a box on Photoshop @1200dpi, the file was 363Mb!!!! That would mean the complete box image would be 850Mb+ in size & probably take an eon or two to print off each box. A friend of mine who is a designer suggested creating the image at 1200 dpi & printing at a lower res of about 800dpi. Image quality at this level is great but it is an enormous file for a single image. The gatefold would be very nice but I think you'd really need to weigh up the pros & cons of cost vs. appearence. As much as I like boxed carts, I think that the additional costs of the gatefold (materials & printing) might well make the price prohibitive to a lot of folks. Having said all that, I do appreciate the reason for wanting the gatefold, sturdy boxes posses two key elements - visual appeal/impact & pragmatic storage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukey Shay Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Two solutions...use a lower resolution for non-photographic images (like 600dpi), or save the file in a more conservative file type (like jpeg). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osmeroid Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Can you zip bitmap files & would it make much difference to the file size? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Can you zip bitmap files & would it make much difference to the file size? Sure it would but even the JPG option that Nukey suggested doesn't help you much because once the image is in memory (e.g. being printed) it has to be decompressed. Your best bet is to use 600DPI and live with that size, it really does look good if you have the right printer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Your best bet is to use 600DPI and live with that size, it really does look good if you have the right printer. I agree, we print many of our materials at 600DPI, even though the printer can support up to 1200dpi. This is just fine for raster images. If you're using vector art, then that art will print at the highest resolution the printer is capable of, and the files are also *much* smaller (and will print much faster, especially with the printer we have). It can get very cumbersome dealing with high-DPI images and you need tons of memory and hard drive space! As for the thickness of material that can be printed, we can run some pretty thick paper through our printer, but I doubt anything approaching a normal Atari "box" paper stock. I haven't done any experiments yet, but I'd have to look at the documentation first. We can print in sheets up to 12" x 18", plenty large enough for a normal size box to then be cut and folded. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 As for the thickness of material that can be printed, we can run some pretty thick paper through our printer, but I doubt anything approaching a normal Atari "box" paper stock. I haven't done any experiments yet, but I'd have to look at the documentation first. We can print in sheets up to 12" x 18", plenty large enough for a normal size box to then be cut and folded. At first I thought that the printing is the biggest problem about producing boxes, but it isn't! If you have good looking prints you have to cut them (a lot of work) and FOLD them manually. I tried folding the thick paper of the Mental Kombat boxes myself, but it looked awful. So I asked the professional print office about cutting, folding and glueing the box automatically. That increased the price even more, but I think that the result looks great. Don't underestimate the problem of cutting and folding the boxes... Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 At first I thought that the printing is the biggest problem about producing boxes, but it isn't! If you have good looking prints you have to cut them (a lot of work) and FOLD them manually. I tried folding the thick paper of the Mental Kombat boxes myself, but it looked awful. So I asked the professional print office about cutting, folding and glueing the box automatically. That increased the price even more, but I think that the result looks great. This is a very good point. I know just from folding manuals that it can be difficult to get consistent and straight folds. Part of the problem is that you want the fold to be sharp, or the printed edges will not be very clean. And in the case of color laser printing, the toner may break apart at the folded edges (this is more of a problem with manuals, since you are folding them 180 degrees.. With a box, you are only folding 90 degrees, although when the boxes are laying flat some edges are folded at 180 degrees). And yes, cutting would be a royal pain in the neck to do by hand. Cutting manuals by hand can be time consuming, and is something I don't usually do manually. I can't imagine how much work would be involved in doing boxes by hand. I do have experience gluing boxes, as those who were at our party at last year's CGE can attest to. ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 * remembers hunched over people with Corona 12 packs holding down boxes * Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 * remembers hunched over people with Corona 12 packs holding down boxes * ..Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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