atari8warez Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 The fumes from soldering are generally the flux (which in itself isn't exactly healthy for you). There's not much point with any memory testers since the machine won't allow anything to boot. They could have easily had the OS allow a boot with a couple of flags and bit of program change, e.g. POST Ram test fails, go to self-test, when user hits Reset boot normally. Got to agree though - unless you have help nearby it's best to just sell/trade for a working one. Just 2 trips in the mail might be near enough to replacement cost anyway. Well, my spool of leaded solder has a warning on it which says "LEAD. Do not inhale"..... guess I would have to go with the manufacturer's warning on this subject. The extended RAM test program is to test the extended RAM, so it will be run only after the main memory RAM is fixed and the machine can boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloopy Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 The fumes from soldering are generally the flux (which in itself isn't exactly healthy for you). There's not much point with any memory testers since the machine won't allow anything to boot. They could have easily had the OS allow a boot with a couple of flags and bit of program change, e.g. POST Ram test fails, go to self-test, when user hits Reset boot normally. Got to agree though - unless you have help nearby it's best to just sell/trade for a working one. Just 2 trips in the mail might be near enough to replacement cost anyway. Well, my spool of leaded solder has a warning on it which says "LEAD. Do not inhale"..... guess I would have to go with the manufacturer's warning on this subject. The extended RAM test program is to test the extended RAM, so it will be run only after the main memory RAM is fixed and the machine can boot. The temps we use for soldering, or even our soldering irons are capable of when the temp is all the way up, isnt high enough to vaporize lead, or tin for that matter... the main inhale hazzard is the flux fumes... Either way, the comment wasnt meant literally, was more because of the RSI in my hands I take breaks often, the sniffing fumes comment is just common among people 'in the biz', as a 'nod' to drug addicts whose preferred drug is something inhaled or sniffed... sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) The fumes from soldering are generally the flux (which in itself isn't exactly healthy for you). There's not much point with any memory testers since the machine won't allow anything to boot. They could have easily had the OS allow a boot with a couple of flags and bit of program change, e.g. POST Ram test fails, go to self-test, when user hits Reset boot normally. Got to agree though - unless you have help nearby it's best to just sell/trade for a working one. Just 2 trips in the mail might be near enough to replacement cost anyway. Well, my spool of leaded solder has a warning on it which says "LEAD. Do not inhale"..... guess I would have to go with the manufacturer's warning on this subject. The extended RAM test program is to test the extended RAM, so it will be run only after the main memory RAM is fixed and the machine can boot. The temps we use for soldering, or even our soldering irons are capable of when the temp is all the way up, isnt high enough to vaporize lead, or tin for that matter... the main inhale hazzard is the flux fumes... Either way, the comment wasnt meant literally, was more because of the RSI in my hands I take breaks often, the sniffing fumes comment is just common among people 'in the biz', as a 'nod' to drug addicts whose preferred drug is something inhaled or sniffed... sloopy. Wouldn't you think the warning would then read "FLUX, do not inhale" instead of "LEAD, do not inhale" ?? The following paragraph was extracted from OSHA's website (www.osha.gov) "Lead is used in the soldering process in the form of lead/silver filler metals. When heated, lead oxide fumes are formed. Excessive exposure to lead oxide fumes can result in lead poisoning. Symptoms include loss of appetite, indigestion, nausea, vomiting, constipation, headache, abdominal cramps, nervousness, and insomnia. Lead is absorbed through the mucous membranes of the lung, stomach, or intestines and then enters the bloodstream". I guess I'll keep using lead free for the rest of my 'biz' Edited June 17, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Chances are you cop a bit of it as fine particulate. I remember years ago making fishing sinkers in a mold by melting old roofing lead and it made me feel a bit sick afterwards. But generally the smoke you see when soldering is mostly from the flux, probably with the odd bit of plastic from wiring and laquer from circuit boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Chances are you cop a bit of it as fine particulate. I remember years ago making fishing sinkers in a mold by melting old roofing lead and it made me feel a bit sick afterwards. But generally the smoke you see when soldering is mostly from the flux, probably with the odd bit of plastic from wiring and laquer from circuit boards. Smoke doesn't bother me much, but the OSHA warning does... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloopy Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 trans-dermal, and contact contamination are more likely then lead oxide inhalation to cause lead poisoning... the 'main' hazard from the fumes is flux... either way, inhaling isnt good... lead-free flux is just as bad for you... sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I remember years ago making fishing sinkers... I used to use my mouth when changing split shots on my trout fishing tackle.... no more since I've learnt the toxic effects of lead... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) trans-dermal, and contact contamination are more likely then lead oxide inhalation to cause lead poisoning... the 'main' hazard from the fumes is flux... either way, inhaling isnt good... lead-free flux is just as bad for you... sloopy. Ah we are medical drs now ........ Sloopy read the warning from OSHA. Don't you trust your government. They are thinking of your health Seriously though to anyone doing long term soldering, working on/cutting PCBs/Perfboards etc.. or routing/melting/cutting plastic or ABS, I would strongly suggest using masks to protect their health.... not worth getting cancer or lead poisining for a hobby. And by the way we managed to take this topic way out of it's scope Edited June 17, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloopy Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 trans-dermal, and contact contamination are more likely then lead oxide inhalation to cause lead poisoning... the 'main' hazard from the fumes is flux... either way, inhaling isnt good... lead-free flux is just as bad for you... sloopy. Ah we are medical drs now ........ Sloopy read the warning from OSHA. Don't you trust your government. They are thinking of your health Nope, I am not a doctor... or a lawyer... I went to school for... electrical engineering, specifying in electronics (didnt have 'electronic engineering back then ;')... so i am knowledgable about electronics, not all this medical stuff... sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 When I do not think of my health... I really have to admit I'm a bit addicted to the smoke coming from my solder iron. I love that smell... it smells good, and I love that part of the hobby very much too, so it brings me in a very good mood. But... I have to admit, after a few nights of almost non stop soldering, I have to agree... I don't feel so well, and that is not only about being tired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 The OSHA statement is all true, but still mis-leading. Yes, lead is used in soldering. Yes, if heated to 600C, lead oxide fumes will be formed, but that has nothing to do with the soldering process which should not exceed 300C. OSHA doesn't say that soldering will produce lead oxide but the structure of their statements leaves us with that impression. Yes, lead oxide is bad for you... I don't know if they did this on purpose, but they couldn't have done a better job of BS if they tried. Bob The fumes from soldering are generally the flux (which in itself isn't exactly healthy for you). There's not much point with any memory testers since the machine won't allow anything to boot. They could have easily had the OS allow a boot with a couple of flags and bit of program change, e.g. POST Ram test fails, go to self-test, when user hits Reset boot normally. Got to agree though - unless you have help nearby it's best to just sell/trade for a working one. Just 2 trips in the mail might be near enough to replacement cost anyway. Well, my spool of leaded solder has a warning on it which says "LEAD. Do not inhale"..... guess I would have to go with the manufacturer's warning on this subject. The extended RAM test program is to test the extended RAM, so it will be run only after the main memory RAM is fixed and the machine can boot. The temps we use for soldering, or even our soldering irons are capable of when the temp is all the way up, isnt high enough to vaporize lead, or tin for that matter... the main inhale hazzard is the flux fumes... Either way, the comment wasnt meant literally, was more because of the RSI in my hands I take breaks often, the sniffing fumes comment is just common among people 'in the biz', as a 'nod' to drug addicts whose preferred drug is something inhaled or sniffed... sloopy. Wouldn't you think the warning would then read "FLUX, do not inhale" instead of "LEAD, do not inhale" ?? The following paragraph was extracted from OSHA's website (www.osha.gov) "Lead is used in the soldering process in the form of lead/silver filler metals. When heated, lead oxide fumes are formed. Excessive exposure to lead oxide fumes can result in lead poisoning. Symptoms include loss of appetite, indigestion, nausea, vomiting, constipation, headache, abdominal cramps, nervousness, and insomnia. Lead is absorbed through the mucous membranes of the lung, stomach, or intestines and then enters the bloodstream". I guess I'll keep using lead free for the rest of my 'biz' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) I don't know if they did this on purpose, but they couldn't have done a better job of BS if they tried. Bob The following paragraph is taken from here: "People may be occupationally exposed to lead oxide dust during its production and use as well as from smelting, refining, and other operations in which metallic lead is heated in the presence of air such as welding and soldering. The greatest potential for high-level occupational exposure is in lead smelting and refining and the most hazardous operations are those in which the metal is brought to high temperatures resulting in vaporization and subsequently fumes containing small, respirable particles(1). [(1) USEPA; Air Quality Criteria for Lead EPA 600/8-83-028aF (1986)] **PEER REVIEWED** " Note the "melting metal coming in contact with air" bit. That's what happens when the solder melts. It may not be as dangerous as smelting but is hazardeous nontheless. The hot water pipes in your home never reach melting temperatures, yet lead-free solder is used to connect the pipes. That means even coming in contact with lead is hazardeous. If you say that's BS too, well then go ahead and don't care. Personally my health is more important than soldering so to me it only makes sense to take precautions to avoid unnecessary illnesses. Edited June 17, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bob1200xl Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I would like to assure Atari folks that lead soldering the way we do it is safe. Nothing is to be gained if we scare people unnecessarily. Your texts do not specify that electronic soldering carries any danger from lead oxide. If you find a specific, credible source, I'd like to see it. Lead mixes with oxygen in the air to create lead oxide. This occurs at a temperature of 600 degrees centigrade - way over any temperature a normal soldering iron can even reach. This is a chemical reaction, not some random event with heated lead. It follows specific processes - at temperatures under the reaction point, you get nothing but hot lead. Lead leaches out of the solder joints into the water in your pipes. It has nothing to do with lead oxide - water is a solvent - most all metals dissolve in it - best not to be lead, right? Good example of potential danger, though. If you are soldering copper pipes with lead, (DWV, for example) do not melt the solder with a torch - heat the pipe with the torch and melt the lead with the hot pipe. I don't want anyone exposed to dangerous processes, either. This just isn't one of them. Bob I don't know if they did this on purpose, but they couldn't have done a better job of BS if they tried. Bob The following paragraph is taken from here: "People may be occupationally exposed to lead oxide dust during its production and use as well as from smelting, refining, and other operations in which metallic lead is heated in the presence of air such as welding and soldering. The greatest potential for high-level occupational exposure is in lead smelting and refining and the most hazardous operations are those in which the metal is brought to high temperatures resulting in vaporization and subsequently fumes containing small, respirable particles(1). [(1) USEPA; Air Quality Criteria for Lead EPA 600/8-83-028aF (1986)] **PEER REVIEWED** " Note the "melting metal coming in contact with air" bit. That's what happens when the solder melts. It may not be as dangerous as smelting but is hazardeous nontheless. The hot water pipes in your home never reach melting temperatures, yet lead-free solder is used to connect the pipes. That means even coming in contact with lead is hazardeous. If you say that's BS too, well then go ahead and don't care. Personally my health is more important than soldering so to me it only makes sense to take precautions to avoid unnecessary illnesses. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 ...and if you're nervous, just use a fan to draw the fumes away from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I would like to assure Atari folks that lead soldering the way we do it is safe. Nothing is to be gained if we scare people unnecessarily. Your texts do not specify that electronic soldering carries any danger from lead oxide. If you find a specific, credible source, I'd like to see it. Lead mixes with oxygen in the air to create lead oxide. This occurs at a temperature of 600 degrees centigrade - way over any temperature a normal soldering iron can even reach. This is a chemical reaction, not some random event with heated lead. It follows specific processes - at temperatures under the reaction point, you get nothing but hot lead. Lead leaches out of the solder joints into the water in your pipes. It has nothing to do with lead oxide - water is a solvent - most all metals dissolve in it - best not to be lead, right? Good example of potential danger, though. If you are soldering copper pipes with lead, (DWV, for example) do not melt the solder with a torch - heat the pipe with the torch and melt the lead with the hot pipe. I don't want anyone exposed to dangerous processes, either. This just isn't one of them. Bob I don't know if they did this on purpose, but they couldn't have done a better job of BS if they tried. Bob The following paragraph is taken from here: "People may be occupationally exposed to lead oxide dust during its production and use as well as from smelting, refining, and other operations in which metallic lead is heated in the presence of air such as welding and soldering. The greatest potential for high-level occupational exposure is in lead smelting and refining and the most hazardous operations are those in which the metal is brought to high temperatures resulting in vaporization and subsequently fumes containing small, respirable particles(1). [(1) USEPA; Air Quality Criteria for Lead EPA 600/8-83-028aF (1986)] **PEER REVIEWED** " Note the "melting metal coming in contact with air" bit. That's what happens when the solder melts. It may not be as dangerous as smelting but is hazardeous nontheless. The hot water pipes in your home never reach melting temperatures, yet lead-free solder is used to connect the pipes. That means even coming in contact with lead is hazardeous. If you say that's BS too, well then go ahead and don't care. Personally my health is more important than soldering so to me it only makes sense to take precautions to avoid unnecessary illnesses. look if they strongly suggest that you wash your hands after soldering, why take a chance, just use a mask or use lead free solder or use a fan (as somebody else suggested). I know it's a chemical reaction that happens at a given temp, but science isn't exact in everything. What they tell us is safe one day, becomes dangerous a few decades later and vice versa. I can not see or feel when fumes contain noxious particles so I prefer to be on the safe side. But again like many other subjects, it's everybody's choice on how to treat their body. One fact remains though LED IS POISIONOUS.. (I sincerely hope you agree with this one ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 ...and if you're nervous, just use a fan to draw the fumes away from you. Not really nervous, just cautious... and using a fan is a good idea.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariGeezer Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I've been using lead solder for 40+ years now and no ill side effects Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 One fact remains though LED IS POISIONOUS.. (I sincerely hope you agree with this one ) Fact #2: Lead free solder sucks! It's worth wearing gloves and a mask just to get the better joints you get with Sn/Pb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) One fact remains though LED IS POISIONOUS.. (I sincerely hope you agree with this one ) Fact #2: Lead free solder sucks! It's worth wearing gloves and a mask just to get the better joints you get with Sn/Pb. That's what I've heard too before beginning using it and my first experience with it was kind of frustrating. It didn't take long to adjust to it though. I have a heat adjustable soldering iron so i only slightly increased the heat to get a good flow and the joints look just as good as the leaded solder. Will probably have a better idea in the long run about the quality of joints but so far it looks good. Also using a thinner coil seems to help in getting the melting point down. Edited June 18, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) deleted: sorry for the double post Edited June 18, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bf2k+ Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 I remember years ago making fishing sinkers... I used to use my mouth when changing split shots on my trout fishing tackle.... no more since I've learnt the toxic effects of lead... I opened one with my teeth today at the lake... didn't catch any fish though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) I remember years ago making fishing sinkers... I used to use my mouth when changing split shots on my trout fishing tackle.... no more since I've learnt the toxic effects of lead... I opened one with my teeth today at the lake... didn't catch any fish though. What were you fishing for?... man missing my boat profoundly rather go fishing than inhaling fumes , also did I mention that I threw 7 grand to a 4 stroke Honda 55Hp outboard so that I don't inhale gasoline fumes only to get it stolen from my driveway in a few years time....damn theives!!!. :_( Edited June 18, 2012 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+bf2k+ Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Anything big enough to swallow a 4" minnow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sloopy Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 *a-hem*... Bad ram... sloopy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBuell Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) What are you trying to say, sloopy, you can use bad RAM chips for fish bait? <Insert fish and chips gag here/> Edited June 30, 2012 by JohnBuell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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