Is it blasphemy to use a stock Genesis/Megadrive controller with the VCS?

[Rex Dart]

 

What? No good?

[+Mitch]

 

Not quite. The question was specifically about the Genesis/Megadrive controller. Those are gamepads, not joysticks or paddles (or driving controllers) like the original VCS games were designed to be played with. Also, they weren't made or offered by Atari for the VCS. So, blasphemy.

 

 

The 2600 jr was sold with the Atari gamepad in Europe.

 

Mitch

[ledzep]

What about games that weren't offered by Atari for the VCS?

 

Bear in mind that this just one jackass' (my) opinion. Having said that, I don't see the problem. You're either talking about official 3rd party games (Activision, Imagic, Parker Brothers, Apollo, Data Age, etc.) or homebrews/hacks. Since they were designed/coded for the VCS and, specifically with 3rd party games, sanctioned/licensed by Atari, that's totally fine, they're still made for the VCS hardware. Just don't play them with modded gamepads, haahahaa.

 

Now, having said that, if some enterprising homebrewist codes up a new game for the VCS and he designs it such that it plays best using a gamepad, that is when you break out the Genesis/Megadrive controller or whatever else he says you should play it with.

[ledzep]

Not quite. The question was specifically about the Genesis/Megadrive controller. Those are gamepads, not joysticks or paddles (or driving controllers) like the original VCS games were designed to be played with. Also, they weren't made or offered by Atari for the VCS. So, blasphemy.

 

 

The 2600 jr was sold with the Atari gamepad in Europe.

 

Mitch

 

Yes, and Ford willingly produced the Mustang II in the '70s. No company is perfect (I give you Atari's VCS Pac-Man cart). Still, an official Atari gamepad, while not needed or required by any of the games that came before it (and I'm guessing any of the games that came out during/after), is an official Atari controller and not the blasphemy that a Genesis/Megadrive controller would be. It's certainly not ideal, either, same as playing vector arcade games on raster monitors or using a mouse and keyboard to play MAME arcade games on your PC instead of wiring up correct trackballs, joysticks and spinners for that matter. It's not the end of the world to do something half-assed but it is required that you actually acknowledge that it is half-assed, nobody's going to accept the "But there's no difference!" argument. If there was really no difference then nobody would point it out. A gamepad ain't a joystick or a paddle, try playing Warlords or Kaboom! with a gamepad, see what a complete waste of time that is. But then I'm biased, I could not tolerate the joy disk or whatever that thing is on the Intellivision controller.

[Rex Dart]

...the "But there's no difference!" argument. If there was really no difference then nobody would point it out.

Not so; there are plenty of crazies around.

 

A gamepad ain't a joystick or a paddle, try playing Warlords or Kaboom! with a gamepad, see what a complete waste of time that is.

 

No crap, a paddle isn't a joystick. They send out totally different signals to the console. A gamepad and a joystick, however... identical signals.

[Andromeda Stardust]

A gamepad ain't a joystick or a paddle, try playing Warlords or Kaboom! with a gamepad, see what a complete waste of time that is.

 

No crap, a paddle isn't a joystick. They send out totally different signals to the console. A gamepad and a joystick, however... identical signals.

Bravo!

 

My friend and I played some pretty heated battles of Warlords, and I whupped his tail in Kaboom! I have no problem using the Paddles; they are perfect controllers. I got some NOS Atari Joysticks thinking they would be good quality, and the sticks just feel like crap. The plastic handle / cheap switches crinkles around like a dented soda can when I work the joystick, and on one of them, I heard a "pop" while playing Ms Pacman and while it still works okay, it's been popping ever since whenever I tilt "up" on it. And while using the VCS joysticks, I have died so many times when Pacman went right instead of up or some other direction, and instead of evading the ghosts, I smacked into them. And when my friend and I played Activision Boxing, our hands cramped up badly with those buttons. It's got cheap construction and shoddy plastic, and being 30 years old doesn't help much. So I just threw the controllers into my game bin and took the advice of a fellow NintendoAge member, pulled out the Genesis gamepad, and it worked beautifully. Then, to build a real quality joystick and not some POS brick-on-a-stick, I started building my extra large Atari Arcade controller, with an Optimarc Mag Stik Plus Joystick that can be switched on the fly between 4-way and 8-way operation. It works flawlessly:

 

I still feel, however, that the Genny makes a better gamepad than the original VCS joystick.

Edited August 1, 2012 by stardust4ever

[Andromeda Stardust]

Douple post, please delete...

Edited August 1, 2012 by stardust4ever

[fiddlepaddle]

I use a Genny STICK, not pad, and I like it much better than the Atari stick. Regarding potential damage, empirical evidence is overwhelming that the Genny stick hasn't appreciably affected the life of my 7800; if it lasts merely another 30 years, I'll be completely satisfied.

 

I also believe the player can choose his controller of choice, just like a great golfer or tennis player or guitar player chooses the best tools. The very best competitors often have their controller-equivalents custom made, though any specific competition may need to set limitations to prevent unfair advantage. When I used to race slot cars, almost EVERYBODY brought their own controllers and cars to the track... it's just part of the fun.

[+wood_jl]

The fact that the word "blasphemy" is in the title of the thread means this topic borders on religion....... :lolblue: :lolblue:

 

As well, it seems that (as in religious topics) nobody is going to convince anybody of anything. How about everyone just name their favorite controller (perhaps for each genre of game) and move on?

[Andromeda Stardust]

The fact that the word "blasphemy" is in the title of the thread means this topic borders on religion....... :lolblue: :lolblue:

I am religious, but video gaming bears no relation to anyone's beliefs, so I prefer not to bring it up, as it was not my intention to start a religious discussion. I used the word "blasphemy" because it is a strong word and as an attention grabber. The title "Is it inappropriate to use a stock Genesis..." just wouldn't have had the same impact. Aside from that, there seems a pretty good balance between the top and bottom option in the 1st poll despite the low counts, and I kinda wished I didn't include the middle option to force people to chose a stronger opinion.

 

I may decide to get one of those Genny sticks; they are pretty cheap right now on Amazon. Though for the purpose of playing Atari games, you still have the issue that if your finger migrates off the "B" button, you'll be hitting "A" or "C" to no avail. I have the NES Advantage, and it is nice, but my custom Arcade NES controller is a lot better, albeit much more expensive as well as time consuming to build. I haven't decided yet to build an arcade Genesis or SNES arcade box, but if I do, I'll probably use the cheaper Happs competition 8-way joystick for the 16-bit systems, since a dedicated joystick is usually better for authentic 8-way operation than a dual-mode joystick (most dual-mode sticks tend to be more squarish in 8-way than a true octagonal baffle, making it easier to hit diagonals by accident), and the 16-bit systems don't have as many arcade ports, so for most games, a dual-mode joystick would have limited usefulness.

Edited August 1, 2012 by stardust4ever

[ledzep]

...the "But there's no difference!" argument. If there was really no difference then nobody would point it out.

Not so; there are plenty of crazies around.

 

A gamepad ain't a joystick or a paddle, try playing Warlords or Kaboom! with a gamepad, see what a complete waste of time that is.

 

No crap, a paddle isn't a joystick. They send out totally different signals to the console. A gamepad and a joystick, however... identical signals.

 

True, a paddle isn't a joystick. But the question was about using a Genesis/Megadrive controller with the VCS, period, not simply for joystick games. A gamepad can presumably be used for paddle games, we've certainly all seen Playstation/Xbox versions of Atari VCS games where they are played with those gamepads and the analog gameplay is swapped out for basic left/right button signals. Not anywhere near the same experience. Atari's own VCS version of Missile Command doesn't recognize a real trackball, it treats a trackball's movements like a joystick. I was very happy to purchase the AtariAge hack of Missile Command that actually works with a trackball in trackball mode. Man, don't ever make a trackball game conversion where the only option is to use digital signals, that ain't right. At least the 5200 and the Vectrex have analog joysticks to get close to the same gameplay.

 

Also, it's not about whether a gamepad and a joystick send out identical signals, otherwise you would have no complaint about snapping the stick off of a joystick and manually pressing the individual contacts to play your VCS games, right? Would VCS fans do that? No. Why? Because they're not concerned or satisfied with the "identical signals" being sent, they want to be able to move a joystick around. It's how those games were meant to be played. And no one is going to care if the joystick turns out to be analog but the internal POT values are converted on the fly to digital signals, right? Nobody can sense joystick signals so nobody cares, they only want to be able to easily and accurately control whatever characters or ships or weapons the controller is hooked to (which is the root of the main complaint about the 5200's joysticks, they don't self-center which plays hell on many games like Pac-Man). So, again, use the gamepad if you like, if it's better for you or it's what you're used to or whatever... but realize that it's still blasphemous.

[Pioneer4x4]

A member of this forum PM'd me based on comments I made in another thread, saying that the Genesis pad could potentially damage the Atari. He mentioned something about the "daisy-chaining" of input devices like keyboards and joysticks, which I'm sure the Atari 2600 doesn't support. The Atari joystick "floats" the unused connections while the Genesis pad outputs 0v or +5v. Anyway, I have studied the schematics of both the Genesis controller and the Atari pinouts, and I don't see how the Genesis pad could potentially cause damage. He may have had the original Atari VCS hardware mixed up with the Atari 8-bit computer line, and recommended using diodes inline to suppress the +5v "high" signal. I don't really think the diodes are necessary. I've quoted my reply here, but not the original posters PM. It contains my thoughts on why this controller works the way it does, but I forget the actual pin numbers without looking them up.

I don't believe the Atari 2600 had keyboards or any other way to "daisy chain" controllers together. Both Joystick ports have dedicated input pins. Because digital logic circuits require a valid input, "floating" inputs can cause erratic behavior and data errors. As a result, I'm pretty sure there is a resistor connected to VCC in order to tie the inputs high when no button is pressed. The analog inputs from the paddle controllers likely use an ADC to convert the analog signal into digital logic. Since the paddle controllers use an ungrounded pot tied to VCC at one end, this creates a "high" signal which needs an additional resistor to create a proper voltage divider for the analog input. So, it is logical that the analog inputs will be tied low by a resistor connected to ground. The Atari controller port uses 5 digital inputs and 2 analog inputs, then GND and VCC pins.

 

 

He has good ideas, but they aren't correct. The atari 2600 DOES have a keyboard, just a very minimal one. The pins do float since they can be used as input or output. Any tying to ground or 5v is done in the controller wiring if at all.

[Rex Dart]

<p>

True, a paddle isn't a joystick. But the question was about using a Genesis/Megadrive controller with the VCS, period...

Hey, you brought it up. Not me.

Also, it's not about whether a gamepad and a joystick send out identical signals, otherwise you would have no complaint about snapping the stick off of a joystick and manually pressing the individual contacts to play your VCS games, right? Would VCS fans do that? No. Why? Because they're not concerned or satisfied with the "identical signals" being sent, they want to be able to move a joystick around. It's how those games were meant to be played.

Of course nobody would want to just connect contacts manually to play a game. Again, nobody's talking about that but you. That has nothing to do with anything.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Rex Dart

[ledzep]

<p>

True, a paddle isn't a joystick. But the question was about using a Genesis/Megadrive controller with the VCS, period...

Hey, you brought it up. Not me.

 

No, I didn't bring it up, it's implied in the original question -

 

"Is it blasphemy to use a stock Genesis/Megadrive controller with the VCS?"

 

That means using a stock Genesis/Megadrive controller for any game. Having never tried that on my VCS I can't say for which games a stock Genesis/Megadrive controller would even work but since there are no qualifiers in the original question it is assumed that the gamer could be using, or at least attempting to use, a stock Genesis/Megadrive controller for games that require joysticks, paddles, driving controllers or trackballs. And being or not being blasphemous in the attempts.

 

And just to be clear, since some people seem to think 'blasphemy' can only be related to something religious, the definition is -

 

 

blas·phe·my   [blas-fuh-mee]

 

noun, plural blas·phe·mies.

1. impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things.

2. Judaism .

a. an act of cursing or reviling God.

b. pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai.

3. Theology . the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.

4. irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc.: He uttered blasphemies against life itself.

 

It seems obvious that its use in this poll/thread is the 4th version. I would think that most Atari VCS fans who spend time on AtariAge consider the VCS to be either sacred or priceless (or both). I know I do, my childhood would be vastly different without it. On the other hand it's just a videogame console, it's fun and cool but it's no cancer cure. But a question was asked and I'm trying to answer it as written. Who cares, just my opinion, right?

 

Also, it's not about whether a gamepad and a joystick send out identical signals, otherwise you would have no complaint about snapping the stick off of a joystick and manually pressing the individual contacts to play your VCS games, right? Would VCS fans do that? No. Why? Because they're not concerned or satisfied with the "identical signals" being sent, they want to be able to move a joystick around. It's how those games were meant to be played.

Of course nobody would want to just connect contacts manually to play a game. Again, nobody's talking about that but you. That has nothing to do with anything.

 

But why not? Your previous statement -

 

"No crap, a paddle isn't a joystick. They send out totally different signals to the console. A gamepad and a joystick, however... identical signals."

 

was in response to me stating -

 

"A gamepad ain't a joystick or a paddle,"

 

My point was that original VCS controllers (joysticks, paddles, driving controllers) are not the same as gamepads and therefore playing a joystick or paddle or driving controller game with a stock Genesis/Megadrive controller, whether you would be successful in the attempt or not, would be blasphemous, yet you are saying that at least joysticks and gamepads are the same since they send out "identical signals". Well, since gamepads are just 4 buttons and most joysticks are just 4 buttons underneath the stick a gamer should see nothing wrong with snapping the stick off of the joystick and simply pressing the now exposed identical-to-gampad buttons to play a game, right? Practically the same physical layout, too. Would anyone accept that? No. Because they are not the same even with sending out identical signals to the console, they have very different physical characteristics and action.

 

To put it another way, I was just at the California Extreme show on Saturday. Hundreds of classic arcade games all in one room. Well, two that I haven't played in a while are Armor..Attack and Space War. All the movements are with buttons (like Asteroids). Same as a joystick, right? No way. Because of the angle of the control panel I felt like I was 5 minutes away from full-blown carpal tunnel syndrome playing both of those. A joystick would have been far, far less painful to use, the player's hand is angled differently and there's less stress on the top of his hand. But... that is the way the game was made, I'll play it the painful way knowing that a VCS version of either game would have used a joystick and not cause me any pain. Definitely not the same deal even given that they send out identical signals.

[Andromeda Stardust]

He has good ideas, but they aren't correct. The atari 2600 DOES have a keyboard, just a very minimal one. The pins do float since they can be used as input or output. Any tying to ground or 5v is done in the controller wiring if at all.

If the Atari VCS does indeed use an ADC to convert the analog Paddle Pots into a digital signal, then a grounded resistor MUST be connected to the input trace somewhere inside the VCS, because there is not one inside the controller. Otherwise, the input on the ADC is permanently pegged at +5V and the ADC won't register any movements. Secondly, the "floating" pins of the controller ports need to be tied either to +5 or to ground through some type of internal resistance, be it inside the console or not. Digital logic (TTL and CMOS) circuit inputs should never be "floated" as it is bad electronics design. While there is little to no potential to cause electrical damage the circuit if left floating, the long controller leads will act as antennas and will produce all types of analog "noise", which could potentially cause the electronics to emit "garbage" data and introduce errors. The higher the input impedance, and the faster the response time of the components, the more likely interference is to occur. I have seen a digital multimeter yield voltages as high as 20-30V in AC mode, with the probes just lying on a lab bench, not connected to anything. As soon as I grounded the leads, the voltage displayed returned to zero. I asked my professor why this occurred, and he explained to me that the multimeter was picking up "garbage" transmitted through the test leads. Even a large resistor would be sufficient to eliminate any noise conducted inside the wires. Typically, a 10K would be used, but in theory it could have any value. Almost all game consoles do this so that a disconnected input doesn't create errors. Whenever I get around to dismantling my Atari joysticks, I'll test the open connection across a button with my multimeter. I'd be willing to bet it will register +5V across an open button or joystick contact, even though there's no VCC hookup. If the "open" voltage across an Atari button or Joystick contact is indeed 5V, then the potential of a Genesis controller to damage the Atari is nonexistent.

 

No, I didn't bring it up, it's implied in the original question -

 

"Is it blasphemy to use a stock Genesis/Megadrive controller with the VCS?"

 

[....]

 

And just to be clear, since some people seem to think 'blasphemy' can only be related to something religious, the definition is -

 

 

blas·phe·my   [blas-fuh-mee]

 

noun, plural blas·phe·mies.

1. impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things.

2. Judaism .

a. an act of cursing or reviling God.

b. pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai.

3. Theology . the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.

4. irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc.: He uttered blasphemies against life itself.

 

It seems obvious that its use in this poll/thread is the 4th version.

Of course, I'm referring to the 4th definition. I believe the vast majority of forum members would also agree that it would be blasphemous to take a sledge hammer to an old Atari, which most would agree isn't a "holy" artifact, but numerous people have done this to Ataris and other video game consoles, and posted the results on Youtube.

 

Tetragrammaton

This would make an awesome name for the villain of a Sci-Fi or Fantasy novel/movie/video game. Maybe that's blasphemous in and of itself, I don't know.

 

Again as for the argument of whether the VCS joystick and Genesis Gamepad output the identical signals, the answer is "no." As has been said previously, the VCS joystick is just a bunch of switches, while the Genny pad has actual electronics in it, but to the VCS, the D-Pad and the Genny "B" button are indistinguishable. As I have said previously, only on the normally disconnected analog paddle lines, does the Genny pad provide a different signal to the VCS. Since the vast majority of joystick games ignore the paddle inputs, the Genny pad normally plays identically to a joystick.

 

Also, it's not about whether a gamepad and a joystick send out identical signals, otherwise you would have no complaint about snapping the stick off of a joystick and manually pressing the individual contacts to play your VCS games, right? Would VCS fans do that? No. Why? Because they're not concerned or satisfied with the "identical signals" being sent, they want to be able to move a joystick around. It's how those games were meant to be played.

Funny you mention pressing individual contacts. When I was troubleshooting my original NES arcade controller schematic (anyone else would have just butchered an old controller, but I insisted on building the whole thing from off-the-shelf components), I had the whole thing bread-boarded up and wired to a controller port. I had 8 green wires (U, D, R, L, Sta, Sel, A, B), one black wire (Ground), and a red wire for the digital turbo control. After testing the breadboard for the presence of shorts, I plugged it into the NES. For a brief moment, I was actually playing Super Mario Brothers by tapping wires together: just getting past that first Goomba was difficult, let alone run-and-jump gameplay! All this troubleshooting had to be done before ever wiring up the joysticks/buttons to the breadboard or mounting them inside the controller box. The Atari controller was easy: no circuit board needed! Edited August 2, 2012 by stardust4ever

[R.O.T.S]

Nah, it's not any more blasphemous than using a third-party controller.

 

 

 

p.s. this:

I have this but it is not something you hold in your hands which i prefer, it is more like a controller you place on a flat surface.

[Matthew]

Genesis/Megadrive joysticks have been known to overload the internal circuitry of the Atari 2600, causing irreparable damage.

 

Don't do it, it's not worth the risk. Your Atari could combust due to the current overload.

 

True story!.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Genesis/Megadrive joysticks have been known to overload the internal circuitry of the Atari 2600, causing irreparable damage.

 

Don't do it, it's not worth the risk. Your Atari could combust due to the current overload.

 

True story!.

Proof??? My 3-button Genesis controller only pulls a couple milliamps of current, tops. The 9V power supply is rated well over 500mA, which passes through a 5V regulator. The regulator can handle like 2mA extra load, I'm sure.

 

Update: I just went and dismantled my Atari Joystick. I tested the voltage between ground and each one of the joystick and button inputs with my digital multimeter. My suspicions were confirmed: The voltage on all five input pins was 4.86V, very close to the nominal 5V you'd expect to find, meaning that the input pins do not "float" as some people claim, but they are held high by some internal resistor located inside the Atari, until you ground the input by pressing a button. The 5V "high" output fed to the signal pins by the Genesis controller when no button is pressed, is no different than the 5V that is already present on the signal line when nothing is connected.

 

My advice: Don't argue with an Electrical Engineering Major! Proof, or the Genesis controller doesn't "blow up" or "set fire" to the VCS as you claim. And no, a Youtube video of some kid stuffing fireworks in his Atari and plugging in a Genny controller in an attempt to debunk this myth doesn't count.

Edited August 2, 2012 by stardust4ever

[Rex Dart]

I have this but it is not something you hold in your hands which i prefer, it is more like a controller you place on a flat surface.

 

That's right! You win the prize!

 

Why do I keep bumping this silly thing?

Edited August 2, 2012 by Rex Dart

[SlowCoder]

Genesis/Megadrive joysticks have been known to overload the internal circuitry of the Atari 2600, causing irreparable damage.

 

Don't do it, it's not worth the risk. Your Atari could combust due to the current overload.

 

True story!.

This is a joke, right? Documentation?