Atari Jaguar vs the Nintendo 64

[JagChris]

Its extremely unlikely that Zero5 is the best it can do.

 

It could also very well be the best it can do. I think a small group of individuals here tend to be a little too optimistic when it comes to theorizing what the Jaguar is actually capable of.

Yeah, I think that's what most of us are trying to get at here. However, there's a small minority still laughably living a twenty year old fantasy that the Jaguar was and still is more powerful than anything else on the market, even compared to platforms years down the line (re: the Nintendo 64).

 

There is a small minority going the other way as well and think the Jaguar is no more powerful than a Genesis or an SNES with an FX chip in it. Both ends of the spectrum are laughable.

Edited November 7, 2013 by JagChris

[JagChris]

I don't think it was smarter A.I. I thought it was more parallel processing power.

 

 

... we won't go into that 'link them up for smarter AI bullshit' everyone keeps muttering about.

[+CyranoJ]

Err... right. Whatever.

[JagChris]

Err... right. Whatever.

 

Thats just what they claim. You'll have to take that up with Dr. LeGrande.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Can we just agree that the Jag is not true 5th gen but rather 4.5?

 

"bits" mean nothing with regards to graphics ability. Sure the Jag and N64 shared a similar MIPS processor. In fact, Nintendo probably studied the Jag's CPU and designed a much better system around it. NES and Atari VCS had similar CPUs as well but they were night and day in the graphics department. Once you hit 32 bits, the ability to store larger integers or have increased floating point precision is moot as far as gaming goes. Well maybe not today now that you have consoles with multiple gigabytes of RAM, but come on. I mean, look at all those PCs with 32-bit processors emulating the N64, which was technically 64-bit. Most N64 emulators are still compiled for 32 bits CPU, although I'd like to believe some improvement could be gained by using 64-bit instructions to emulate a 64-bit CPU.

[JagChris]

Who cares? Just have fun.

 

We have fun playing Reboot Jagware games. I'm currently loving the hell outta Bubble Bobble. It doesn't push the Jag and neither does any of the other offerings from JagWare/Reboot and that's fine. They're having fun. And they have every right to.

 

And sometimes some of us like to speculate on what could of been. And that's for fun too. Everyone just relax and enjoy ourselves.

 

I don't know what it was about that generation of gaming. It was the last of an era.

[+CyranoJ]

Meh.

 

I agree with the sentiment above.

 

But BB does actually 'push the jag' because its running non-native code.

Edited November 7, 2013 by CyranoJ

[sh3-rg]

Is it a recurring theme that Atari fanboys are lunatics, and you guys just keep instigating that fact?

 

It's a recurring theme that, from time to time, accounts get created here with the intention of drive-by thread crapping and stirring up unrest. That much is true.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Meh.

 

I agree with the sentiment above.

 

But BB does actually 'push the jag' because its running non-native code.

How is it non-native code if it runs natively on a console?

 

 

It's a recurring theme that, from time to time, accounts get created here with the intention of drive-by thread crapping and stirring up unrest. That much is true.

Of course there are a lot of Atari fanboys here. Did you read the name of the forum? Atari-Age...

[ggn]

It doesn't push the Jag and neither does any of the other offerings from JagWare/Reboot and that's fine.

[citation required]

[sh3-rg]

It doesn't push the Jag and neither does any of the other offerings from JagWare/Reboot and that's fine.

 

Wow, and JagChris has spoken...

[+CyranoJ]

Some of the most simplistic and primitive games on the Jaguar are the ones that are a lot of fun.

 

It doesn't get much more simple than Downfall or Gorf - nothing there that would even make an 8-bit panic.

 

It doesn't push the Jag and neither does any of the other offerings from JagWare/Reboot and that's fine. They're having fun. And they have every right to.

 

[108 Stars]

Atari developed all of the systems they marketed. The fact that they hired developers to get the best technology out there at the most affordable price is, well, kinda normal. The idea that the Lynx or Jaguar arent't "really" Atari systems is, well, kinda nutty.

No they didn't.

Epyx developed the Lynx on their own, they were never hired by Atari to do so. It was practically finished when they approached Atari (only after Nintendo and Sega were not interested), and all Atari did was design a new plastic shell, put their name on it, rename the system the Lynx and drive Epyx into bankruptcy with their dreaded contract.

[+Sauron]

No they didn't.

Epyx developed the Lynx on their own, they were never hired by Atari to do so. It was practically finished when they approached Atari (only after Nintendo and Sega were not interested), and all Atari did was design a new plastic shell, put their name on it, rename the system the Lynx and drive Epyx into bankruptcy with their dreaded contract.

 

I thought it was originally supposed to be for Commodore.

[KiwiArcader]

The Atari Jaguar was/is as rare as hens teeth in New Zealand. I don't recall a store ever selling them, certainly not mainstream stores that are today selling PC's, tablets etc. I think by the time the Jaguar was released the Atari computer market was in serious decline compared to the Amiga scene and the dedicated computer stores had divided their stock into Amiga and IBM-PC. The Amiga CD32 was readily available and I think the Jaguar was mainly sold via import shops.

 

In eight years of using Trademe, the local equivalent of EBAY I can only recall ever seeing a Jaguar on auction a couple of times and they went for fairly high prices. Until recently I collected Atari so I was pretty keen to acquire one as AvP was touted as a must-have title.

 

After playing Jag games via emulation I have to say that on the whole nothing for the system actually interests me that much but I do admire Atari for having the balls to try and compete with Sega/Nintendo in the console market of the day. At least they got a decent console out there even if it, along with the Falcon, was ultimately the foot note for the company.

[+Gemintronic]

No they didn't.

Epyx developed the Lynx on their own, they were never hired by Atari to do so. It was practically finished when they approached Atari (only after Nintendo and Sega were not interested), and all Atari did was design a new plastic shell, put their name on it, rename the system the Lynx and drive Epyx into bankruptcy with their dreaded contract.

 

So, what you're saying is.. the contract was an Epyx fail?!?

[high voltage]

GORF is the best Jaguar game.

[108 Stars]

I thought it was originally supposed to be for Commodore.

No, Epyx took Needle and Mical under their wing around 1986 when they learned the two were designing a portable game system. Epyx at the time was in their prime, hugely successful with their C64 games. They wanted to expand to not only games but business software and hardware. So the Lynx was to be made by Epyx themselves. But they hit on hard times as their other endeavors did not prove as successful as their games, and the C64 market crumbled. By 1989 when they were unable to launch the Lynx. So they approached several companies, and Atari was the one that was interested.

 

So, what you're saying is.. the contract was an Epyx fail?!?

It was an Epyx fail by Epyx, and Epyx evil by Jack Tramiel.

I know this is off-topic, but I'll explain anyway: The contract which granted Atari the rights to market the Lynx also made sure Epyx was to develop the games for it. Mr.Tramiel was the dirtiest player in the game as we know, and the contract stated that Epyx had to fix any bugs found within 60 days of the problem being flagged, otherwise payment would be withheld. However, the contract did not state that Atari needed to notify Epyx of the bugs the moment they found them. Atari allegedly proceeded to only tell Epyx about issues when most of the 60 days were already over. This way Epyx failed to fix them in time, and were not paid. When Epyx finally ran out of money, Atari made a move and acquired the company for next to nothing, and with it all the rights to he Lynx and to all the hits Epyx had made in the 80ies. That's all according to David Needle.

 

So on one hand I don't like this way of doing business, the merciless way Tramiel was known for. I think there should still be room for fairness in business. But on the other had Epyx lawyers failed when they did not smell the loophole that Atari would use to put them out of business.

Edited November 7, 2013 by 108 Stars

[kevincal]

Here are my 9 favorite Jag games and you can get them all for under $20. Great graphics sound and gameplay.

 

Cybermorph

Alien vs Predator

Doom

Wolfenstein 3d

Zool 2

Iron Soldier

Raiden

Super Burnout

Tempest 2000

 

I have uploaded a bunch of videos recently of these. http://www.youtube.com/user/KevinCali24/videos

[Atari forever!]

108 Stars:

You do know that what you have alleged about Atari's dealings with Epyx is highly speculative? These are allegations, that is all.

If Atari was still around, they would no doubt sue over such charges, and rightfully so.

Let me be clear: I genuinely feel sorry for the positon Epyx was in at that time. It is so sad to be in such dire straits, and no one should EVER take advantage of people in that position. But Jack Tramiel is dead. Let him rest in peace. He was a Holocaust survivor who did fairly well for himself given his prior life experience.

The bottom line: Atari lawfully acquired the Lynx, they then modified the unit (check the Wiki article on the Lynx for details), and sold and marketed it. It is thus an Atari system.

IF we could prove that the behavior you outlined was true, that would be a smoking gun. But we cannot.

Let us allow both Epyx and Atari to rest in peace.

The real issues in this thread were 1) whether the Jaguar tends to get unfairly panned and 2) whether it is more powerful than its critics allege. I think it is clear that the answer to both of those questions is: yes.

[+wood_jl]

It was an Epyx fail by Epyx, and Epyx evil by Jack Tramiel.

I know this is off-topic, but I'll explain anyway: The contract which granted Atari the rights to market the Lynx also made sure Epyx was to develop the games for it. Mr.Tramiel was the dirtiest player in the game as we know, and the contract stated that Epyx had to fix any bugs found within 60 days of the problem being flagged, otherwise payment would be withheld. However, the contract did not state that Atari needed to notify Epyx of the bugs the moment they found them. Atari allegedly proceeded to only tell Epyx about issues when most of the 60 days were already over. This way Epyx failed to fix them in time, and were not paid. When Epyx finally ran out of money, Atari made a move and acquired the company for next to nothing, and with it all the rights to he Lynx and to all the hits Epyx had made in the 80ies. That's all according to David Needle.

 

So on one hand I don't like this way of doing business, the merciless way Tramiel was known for. I think there should still be room for fairness in business. But on the other had Epyx lawyers failed when they did not smell the loophole that Atari would use to put them out of business.

 

Wow, what a bombshell! Because Tramiel had a *ruthless* reputation beforehand, this sounds possibly plausible. Other than the Atari ST - which was created from pilfered Commodore engineers - Tramiels didn't "create" *anything* new, as 7800 was (although by prior arrangement with Warner-Atari) from GCC, Lynx was from Epyx and Jaguar was from Flare Technology.

 

 

 

Let me be clear: I genuinely feel sorry for the positon Epyx was in at that time. It is so sad to be in such dire straits, and no one should EVER take advantage of people in that position. But Jack Tramiel is dead. Let him rest in peace. He was a Holocaust survivor who did fairly well for himself given his prior life experience.

 

 

I don't see how a relevant discussion of Atari history is *NOT* letting someone rest-in-peace. What does that have anything to do with anything? What does the fact that he's a Holocaust survivor have to do with the Lynx deal? Nothing! Let's start a new thread about the fact that Tramiel was a Holocaust survivor and a real trooper at business dealings, famous for his ruthlessness, which equated to SUCCESS. That's not the point here. Why not keep it relevant?

[kevincal]

The Jaguar is kind of like a holocaust survivor of the classic gaming world... During the epic classic gaming war (mid 90's) everyone was trying to kill it and not give it a chance. It barely survived and is going pretty strong to this day.

[108 Stars]

108 Stars:

You do know that what you have alleged about Atari's dealings with Epyx is highly speculative? These are allegations, that is all.

And that's why I myself wrote "allegedly". Jack Tramiel however never chose to comment on these allegations it seems. With that, I would argue that David Needle (being one of the two designers of the Lynx) is one of the best persons to ask about this. And that's what he says happened.

 

But Jack Tramiel is dead. Let him rest in peace. He was a Holocaust survivor who did fairly well for himself given his prior life experience.

No doubt Jack did well. And no doubt whatever his business methods were, he had a big part in bringing computers into the average home especially with the VIC-20 and C64. But by all means, having experienced horrible things in his youth and having died of old age since does not mean that a person is beyond debate. Lots of historical people in business who are dead are the topic of discussion.

 

The bottom line: Atari lawfully acquired the Lynx, they then modified the unit (check the Wiki article on the Lynx for details), and sold and marketed it. It is thus an Atari system.

Yes, Atari did acquire the Lynx and are thus officially the makers of the Lynx. If it would be lawful to act as they allegedly have in order to get rid of Epyx as partner would be for lawyers to decide; very possible there are laws against such behavior, but I don't know.

However, what you claimed was that Atari was the driving force behind all systems they published, and simply hired other companies to execute their project. That is clearly not the case. Look at the Wikipedia article yourself.

 

The Lynx system was originally developed by Epyx as the Handy Game. Planning and design of the console began in 1986 and was completed in 1987. Epyx first showed the Handy system at the Winter Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in January 1989. Facing financial difficulties, Epyx sought out partners. Atari Corp. and Epyx eventually agreed that Atari Corp. would handle production and marketing, while Epyx would handle software development.

Atari Corp. changed the internal speaker and removed the thumb-stick on the control pad before releasing it as the Lynx, initially retailing in the US at US$179.95. Atari Corp. then showed the Lynx to the press at the Summer 1989 CES as the "Portable Color Entertainment System", which was changed to Lynx when actual consoles were distributed to resellers

So the system was was finished by 1987, long before Atari joined forces with Epyx. Epyx themselves showed the system in January 1989, and still Atari was not involved. Half a year later finally Atari had made a deal, and the changes they made were the speakers and removing a piece of plastic from the d-pad.

 

Sorry, that does not qualify as Atari being part of the development for me. Neither did they outsource a project in this case, nor did they contribute in any meaningful way to the hardware after acquiring the rights to manufacture it. They did not initiate a handlheld project and hired Epyx to do it, they picked up a finished system to market as their own because it was basically available for little money. And that's no allegation, that's fact; the dates of Epyx showing the system by themselves before Atari was involved, and the dates of the first Atari presentation are known.

 

The real issues in this thread were 1) whether the Jaguar tends to get unfairly panned and 2) whether it is more powerful than its critics allege. I think it is clear that the answer to both of those questions is: yes.

It was you who brought up that Atari was the driving force behind their systems. I can't claim to be a Jaguar expert, or a 7800 expert. I don't know how much the Flare system had in common with the Jaguar when Atari took over the project. Possibly Jaguar is so different from it that you can say it is Atari's own. But I do know the Lynx history quite a bit.

 

And to get back on topic, I do think that the Jaguar gets panned unfairly. That doesn't mean I think it's a particularly good console. It's all a matter of taste, but for me it really is one of the least attractive systems to ever be released for various reasons.

And so is the Lynx btw, even though I am an outright fan of the little cat; I must just admit that imo there's not nearly as many great games for it available as for Game Boy and Game Gear.

But the Jaguar is not nearly as bad as it is made out to be. Stuff like Checkered Flag, Club Drive, Fight for Life or Kasumi Ninja is terrible crap for me and largely responsible for the system getting the bad rep back in the day. But yes, there's plenty of titles that may not be great but are okay, and even a couple of hits. What's unusual is probably that quite a few of the crap titles came from the console manufacturer in this case, whereas usually that company brings much of the best software. I know why that happened, that Atari was in a dire state, developers sometimes had to work with shareware etc... but it does hurt the rep all the same.

And yes, I do believe the Jaguar can do more than people are aware of. But still to my knowledge it suffers from heavy hardware bugs that severely limit the performance in the end.

 

The reason why I am attracted to both Jaguar and Lynx is the homebrew scenes. Those is something special.

 

It's not as black and white as many so-called journalists make it out to be, but it's also not just a big bashing for no reason.

 

I don't see how a relevant discussion of Atari history is *NOT* letting someone rest-in-peace. What does that have anything to do with anything? What does the fact that he's a Holocaust survivor have to do with the Lynx deal? Nothing! Let's start a new thread about the fact that Tramiel was a Holocaust survivor and a real trooper at business dealings, famous for his ruthlessness, which equated to SUCCESS. That's not the point here. Why not keep it relevant?

Thanks.

I know it's not the original topic, but discussions tend to be moving in different directions, and when we begin talking about Atari having hired others to develop for them and how that is natural, and thinking it is not is "nutty" I felt this has to be said....

Edited November 8, 2013 by 108 Stars

[high voltage]

you all have to wait a bit longer for 'Atari business is war', the book, it'll all be explained then.

[Atari forever!]

Wood and 108:

Okay, your points are well made. What I was saying was a bit different. Tramiel came from a background where they killed you if you weren't ruthless. The only people who survived Auschwitz were those who a) worked really hard or b) were ruthless and managed to stay alive by cunning. The Nazis gave no awards for being nice and decent.

 

Now, does that justify ruthless business practices later in life? OF COURSE NOT! But I still think we ought not go overboard with our hatred for Tramiel. As 108 said, his role in home computers was not negligible, and he did good things along with the bad.

 

As far as the Lynx, 108 is probably right. I have spent much time researching the history of the Jaguar, but very little on the Lynx (although I love the Lynx as a system). The Jaguar was defintely modified by Atari enough to consider it "Atari technology." There is no doubt about that. The finished product is very different from what Flare had. About that I am quite sure.

 

In any case, the main subject here was the Jaguar's technical abilities. 108 is right that Atari itself released some sub-par games which would never have been approved had the company had a normal quality control system, which by that time they certainly did not.

 

We should be thankful that we got Tempest 2000, Alien vs. Predator, and Iron Soldier, all released by Atari in the year 1994. Those are good polished games that show off the system and are great fun to play. Had Atari released another 20-25 games of that caliber, we would probably all be playing the Jaguar 4 right now.