Colecovision vs 7800 vs 5200

[kiwilove]

Something probably not factored in - regarding this type of discussion.

Is that it takes time (2-3 years?) for the programmer(s) to fully understand the hardware - to then push it beyond it's limits - so to speak.

 

You can see it being present in the home computer market especially - where so called hobbyist programmers somehow produce quality output in what they do. That it's not in the initial line-up of titles produced - do you see the best possible.

Although with the 7800 this may be the exception - in that it does have some very strong titles - my personal pick would be Galaga and Xevious - because of being a big fan of these coin-op games - and seeing particularly nice home conversions is nice to see.

Why later titles are not as strong - I would guess it's more due to the independent developers being used - but you could cite Sirius and Plutos being the exception - that had these been finished - would extras be added - to make them even better? Or would it simply be the difficulty level settings that was left to be done to them?

 

Sadly when the 16-bit machines appeared - the 8-bit systems were seen to be old hat and past their use by date.

 

Harvey

[+darryl1970]

I can respect that people disagree with my perspective, but I do feel it's not being interpreted correctly.

While I really enjoy coming here and bouncing opinions back and forth, I think things get lost in turn-based writing.

 

With that said...

 

I am not trying to disrespect the 7800's strengths. I am just coming from the perspective that the 7800 was better suited as a replacement for the 2600. This is what the 5200 SHOULD have been.

As much as I loved my 5200, I am saying I'd rather have gotten the 7800 in 82. I wouldn't have found the sound as inexcusable. In fact, if things had gone as planned, I may have never known how bad it was without an add-on chip!

I would have never experienced 5200 Centipede, to know how good it COULD be at home, but I would have also never dealt with the bird AND player hatching from the eggs in Joust. lol.(Or would have in the A8 version???)

See what I mean by give and take though??

 

The 7800 is a huge advancement over the 2600! It has the 2600 compatibility, which was WAY more important in 82. The other problem I have is that it's only a minor advancement over the A8s -- Give and take.

 

Comparing it to an A8 could go back and forth all day, because they are practically equal, depending on what one wishes to focus on.

I am not saying that the games in the above posts don't not have their strengths over the game below. However, the game below is built on 1979 hardware. I don't see a huge difference. I hear a difference! (Again, I understand the intention was to add chips to the carts.)

 

https://youtu.be/pAjvlSCf7CE https://youtu.be/_EellOX4-zA

 

This is not a generational difference that I'd expect coming FROM the A8/5200 chip sets. It's more like a minor upgrade. It's like adding a turbo charger and taking out the radio. So, we're a little ahead, but the sound is so bad, many people can't enjoy the improvements. The feel of the games don't usually feel as tight to me.

 

I understand why people were in disagreement, because, the 7800 can still hold it's own in a FEW 3rd Generation games. Ballblazer shines on the 7800, for example. However, I am not even sure if that is an NES technical limitation or programmer limitation. The A8 version even blows away the NES version. Again, A8/5200/7800 versions are almost indistinguishable.

 

The one feature that DOES make the 7800 a questionable 3rd gen would be the multi-color sprites. The A8/5200 AND ColecoVision both lacked that feature. However, to their credit, the A8 & 5200 were ahead of their time though, because they allowed a third color from overlapping two players!

 

As far as 3rd gen, NES games like Galaga, Dig Dug, Ms Pac-Man (Tengen), and Donkey Kong, were better than the 7800 in gameplay, frame rate, resolution, sound, and accuracy. To cite 320 mode doesn't take in consideration how crippled games would be if they had backgrounds and many colors. I can't even imagine Super Mario Bros on the 7800. The NES generally sported higher resolution sprites, and they were still pretty colorful. Occasional flicker is a small price for great music, higher resolution sprites (without boxes around them), and smoother gameplay in general.

 

https://youtu.be/lxY41NNKZXM

 

I'd truly love to see somebody rewrite an arcade-quality Galaga for the 7800. I do question whether this was just LOUSY programming. Get rid of the huge gray background periods, and replace them with a multi-color star field, like the A8 Galaxian stars. Redraw all of the sprites correctly, and fix the choppy quirky alien patterns. Add the correct bonus patterns too. Make it play at arcade speed, without having to skip frames. I would accept Pokey music as the standard, since the original intent was to add in sound chips. Given that, I'd REALLY be impressed!!! I am not sure if the 160 mode would be as sharp as the NES 256 mode, but it would be cool to see.

 

If all that could be pulled off in 320 mode, without sacrificing sprite transparency, I would be blown away!!

Edited July 13, 2018 by darryl1970

[kiwilove]

In these versus discussions - I do think it's really the competency of the programmers involved - you are really comparing - and the hardware comes second.

 

I've never seen a 7800 running - so I am surprised by what you said about the 7800 Galaga.

I thought this would have had to be 'arcade quality' to satisfy the 7800 market.

 

I've only viewed a video of someone playing Xevious on the 7800 - and it does look like it's gameplay is faithfully copied from the arcade. It is not an easy game - so I think it takes an experienced player - to be able to comment fully on the 7800 conversion - which looks to be excellent?

 

Note - Crownland is not on the 5200 - while it uses the A8 hardware - I believe it's a 64k game - and I don't know if it's at all possible to port across to the 5200 or not? The tech guys ought to say why not?

 

Harvey

Edited July 14, 2018 by kiwilove

[Jinks]

Galaga 7800 to me is colorfull. Fun fast and the sounds are great.

7800 SMB OR ZELDA mockups and some demo(for a zelda clone) for the 7800 is already around to see... they look great.

With the exception of crownland. There are very few great a8 games that run ntsc. Most are simple and the more complex the gameplay turns horrible to as a tech demo or watching paint dry.

The bland 5200 coleco sprites do not compare to the 7800.

Nes is a flicker machine.. actually SMS was a deadly system that I remember playing more than the nes.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Jinks

[Defender_2600]

....

The one feature that DOES make the 7800 a questionable 3rd gen would be the multi-color sprites. The A8/5200 AND ColecoVision both lacked that feature. However, to their credit, the A8 & 5200 were ahead of their time though, because they allowed a third color from overlapping two players! ...

 

"...the A8 & 5200....they allowed a third color from overlapping two players!"

 

A third color for 2nd gen ?

 

About 3nd gen, with the 7800 160B mode : 24 colors on screen are available for the sprites / tiles ( 12 colors from 2 palettes + transparent / background) and a single sprite can have _12_ colors or 24 colors with two overlapped sprites.

 

Generally, for graphics, I prefer low _horizontal_ resolution (with the advantage of wide pixels) and huge palette, high number of colors, high number of _large_ sprites, no flicker... rather than high resolution BUT poor palette, low number of color, low number of _small_ sprites, abundant flicker ...

 

The 7800 features a broad palette of 256 colors, in layman's terms it means having more than a dozen of blue, green, orange, etc., that you could use it to design night scenery, forests, sunsets, etc., therefore the color depth can be considerable despite of the wide pixel aspect ratio.

For example, the NES features a palette of just 53 colors, 8x8 tiles / 3 colors, 8x8 or 8x16 sprites / 3 colors. In conclusion, each system has its strengths.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2018 by Defender_2600

[Defender_2600]

...

The one feature that DOES make the 7800 a questionable 3rd gen would be the multi-color sprites. ...

 

To cite 320 mode doesn't take in consideration how crippled games would be if they had backgrounds and many colors. ...

 

 

Atari 7800 Froggie: 320 mode ( 320×240 ), over 20 colors on screen + transparent.

 

Asteroids Deluxe, AstroBlaster, Astro Fighter, Baby Pac-Man (WIP), CrazyBrix, Dungeon Stalker, Frenzy / Berzerk, Froggie, Graze Suit Alpha, Moon Cresta, One on One Basketball, Pac-Man 320, Ms. Pac-Man 320, Rip-Off, Scramble, Space Invaders,Tower Toppler: these 7800 games are all made in 320 mode.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNU1iJzfPFA

 

 

 

[Defender_2600]

Note - Crownland is not on the 5200 - while it uses the A8 hardware - I believe it's a 64k game - and I don't know if it's at all possible to port across to the 5200 or not

 

Indeed. Preview of Crownland (40 bytes wide) for 64k machines. But the full version requires 130XE.

[Jinks]

Crownland is pal only and a full of flicker as I am reading the reviews of the game.

[kiwilove]

Crownland has minimal flicker (very hard to notice any) when viewed in PAL - or via Altirra.

It does have beautiful graphics - and is worthwhile to view a playthrough of this exceptional game. But sadly it's control system leaves much to be desired. I hope someone can hack it to be better one day?

 

If someone can post a screenshot of John Harris's Frogger from On-Line - you will then see the best A8 version of Frogger - which compares well to the 7800 version. This was the first version that came out - and shows what a young enthusiast programmer could do - it came out in two versions - 16K cassette and 32K disk versions. The later including music.

 

Harvey

[kiwilove]

 

Found this High Score screenshot.

 

Harvey

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

"...the A8 & 5200....they allowed a third color from overlapping two players!"

 

A third color for 2nd gen ?

 

About 3nd gen, with the 7800 160B mode : 24 colors on screen are available for the sprites / tiles ( 12 colors from 2 palettes + transparent / background) and a single sprite can have _12_ colors or 24 colors with two overlapped sprites.

 

Generally, for graphics, I prefer low _horizontal_ resolution (with the advantage of wide pixels) and huge palette, high number of colors, high number of _large_ sprites, no flicker... rather than high resolution BUT poor palette, low number of color, low number of _small_ sprites, abundant flicker ...

 

The 7800 features a broad palette of 256 colors, in layman's terms it means having more than a dozen of blue, green, orange, etc., that you could use it to design night scenery, forests, sunsets, etc., therefore the color depth can be considerable despite of the wide pixel aspect ratio.

For example, the NES features a palette of just 53 colors, 8x8 tiles / 3 colors, 8x8 or 8x16 sprites / 3 colors. In conclusion, each system has its strengths.

 

7800 vs..png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're gonna show off NES Goombas, you might as well feature the more colorful SMB3 sprites.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

With the exception of crownland. There are very few great a8 games that run ntsc.

Very few? Generally it was the other way around, with most great NTSC games not making it to PAL, or even leaving Japan.

[kiwilove]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPahmhXYcHc

 

Here is an Atari 8-bit game to compare with Crownland - this one seems to be written by some Germans, whereas Crownland was created by a Polish team. You can see here - the problem with so few sprites available - causing massive flicker problems - whereas in the Crownland video above - it is kept to the minimum. There is a speed run video of Crownland - showing an expert player going quickly through it.

 

This game - Tales of Dragons and Cavemen - is a faithful conversion of Rock n Rope - you can compare it with the Colecovision conversion and see how they compare?

 

Harvey

[Jinks]

Very few? Generally it was the other way around, with most great NTSC games not making it to PAL, or even leaving Japan.

Atari 8bit computer is mostly PAL. Your thinking NES right?

[Defender_2600]

You're gonna show off NES Goombas, you might as well feature the more colorful SMB3 sprites.

 

 

The more colorful SMB3 sprites? Again, the NES Goombas have 3 colors in SMB3.

 

Moreover, the SMB3 (3 megabit cartridge!) uses Nintendo's custom MMC3 for animated tiles, extra RAM, diagonal scrolling, etc.

 

 

[Andromeda Stardust]

Atari 8bit computer is mostly PAL. Your thinking NES right?

So is it worth getting an NTSC XEGS for 8-bit game carts, or just stick to 7800? Were there really a crapton more game carts for it released in PAL territories that were unplayable on NTSC hardware? Atari was an American company, after all.

 

And many PAL exclusive SMS and Megadrive games work out of the box on NTSC hardware (and PAL NES games if you cut the lockout chip), but that is an apples to oranges comparison.

 

The few PAL exclusive NES games worth noting (Devil World, Parodius, Mr Gimmick) are cheaper on Famicom (I have an INL NES repro of Mr Gimmick complete with an AY synthesizer to reproduce the extra sound channels on a properly modded toaster), with the exception of Classic Serie Mario Bros. I have the PAL version which runs fine on my NTSC NES with BLW and defeated lockout chip. I also have the PAL exclusive 3-in-1 Mario/Tetris/World Cup. PAL Mario is a bit different pitch/tempo when played sped up on NTSC hardware. I kinda like the extra challenge it provides as all the physics were retuned for 50Hz.

[Jinks]

There are lots of 8 bit compter games I think over 1000 in ntsc and pal.

Most of the great homebrew is pal.

I keep coming back to the 7800 for gaming.

[DracIsBack]

 

The 7800 is a huge advancement over the 2600! It has the 2600 compatibility, which was WAY more important in 82. The other problem I have is that it's only a minor advancement over the A8s -- Give and take.

 

Comparing it to an A8 could go back and forth all day, because they are practically equal, depending on what one wishes to focus on.

I am not saying that the games in the above posts don't not have their strengths over the game below. However, the game below is built on 1979 hardware. I don't see a huge difference. I hear a difference! (Again, I understand the intention was to add chips to the carts.)

 

https://youtu.be/pAjvlSCf7CE https://youtu.be/_EellOX4-zA

 

This is not a generational difference that I'd expect coming FROM the A8/5200 chip sets. It's more like a minor upgrade. It's like adding a turbo charger and taking out the radio. So, we're a little ahead, but the sound is so bad, many people can't enjoy the improvements. The feel of the games don't usually feel as tight to me.

 

I understand why people were in disagreement, because, the 7800 can still hold it's own in a FEW 3rd Generation games. Ballblazer shines on the 7800, for example. However, I am not even sure if that is an NES technical limitation or programmer limitation. The A8 version even blows away the NES version. Again, A8/5200/7800 versions are almost indistinguishable.

 

The one feature that DOES make the 7800 a questionable 3rd gen would be the multi-color sprites. The A8/5200 AND ColecoVision both lacked that feature. However, to their credit, the A8 & 5200 were ahead of their time though, because they allowed a third color from overlapping two players!

 

As far as 3rd gen, NES games like Galaga, Dig Dug, Ms Pac-Man (Tengen), and Donkey Kong, were better than the 7800 in gameplay, frame rate, resolution, sound, and accuracy. To cite 320 mode doesn't take in consideration how crippled games would be if they had backgrounds and many colors. I can't even imagine Super Mario Bros on the 7800. The NES generally sported higher resolution sprites, and they were still pretty colorful. Occasional flicker is a small price for great music, higher resolution sprites (without boxes around them), and smoother gameplay in general.

 

https://youtu.be/lxY41NNKZXM

 

I'd truly love to see somebody rewrite an arcade-quality Galaga for the 7800. I do question whether this was just LOUSY programming. Get rid of the huge gray background periods, and replace them with a multi-color star field, like the A8 Galaxian stars. Redraw all of the sprites correctly, and fix the choppy quirky alien patterns. Add the correct bonus patterns too. Make it play at arcade speed, without having to skip frames. I would accept Pokey music as the standard, since the original intent was to add in sound chips. Given that, I'd REALLY be impressed!!! I am not sure if the 160 mode would be as sharp as the NES 256 mode, but it would be cool to see.

 

If all that could be pulled off in 320 mode, without sacrificing sprite transparency, I would be blown away!!

 

- In terms of improvement, I sort of agree. After all, wasn't the name of the 7800 derived from having "5200 graphics with 2600 compatibility"

 

- That said, it had some notable improvements over the Colecovision and the 5200. There is no way either system was ever going to match the 7800 in terms of the number of sprites it could display. the amount of colours in those sprites etc. That was the 7800's advantage over many competitors including the NES. The Colecovision also suffered severely against the Atari systems and the NES/SMS in terms of lacking hardware assisted scrolling.

 

- Crownland running on 1979 hardware. I hear what you're saying but it's not quite accurate. Crownland uses a GTIA chip (IRC) which was added to the A8 line in 1981 and runs on 128K machines, which were introduced in 1985.

 

- Yes, the 7800 generally uses lower resolution 160 pixel wide graphics modes with only a few games using the higher resolution 320 modes. This is a bit of a disadvantage over the Colecovision, NES and SMS, though those are still low resolution in the grand scheme of things. I do say that whenever I've shown my friends the 7800 running games like Alien Brigade or Commando or Scrapyard Dog, the common comment is "Oh - was this Atari's NES competitor).

 

And indeed, the 7800's sound problems are well known. Though again, GCCs intent was not that most 7800 games would rely on TIA sound. Their idea was that most 7800 games would use some form of in-cart sound chip and the design of the 7800 carts to support this was done out of the gate, not as an afterthought. Ballblazer was a proof of concept. The reason it didn't happen was for the same reason so few games include extra RAM, the cartridges never got beyond 144K, the manuals weren't 4 colour and the cartridges didn't have battery backups. The Tramiels didn't want to pay for it.

 

Commando showed this proof of concept the best, using both POKEY (for music) and TIA (for sound effects)

 

- In many respects, the 7800 was most hampered by poor developers. You cite, for example, the poor Donkey Kong port. This was done during the Tramiel era where they outsourced development 3rd parties that could deliver on the lowest price. What makes the 7800 homebrew scene exciting for me is when homebrewers fix games like Donkey Kong

 

[+Cafeman]

 

 

And indeed, the 7800's sound problems are well known. Though again, GCCs intent was not that most 7800 games would rely on TIA sound. Their idea was that most 7800 games would use some form of in-cart sound chip and the design of the 7800 carts to support this was done out of the gate, not as an afterthought. Ballblazer was a proof of concept.

 

Commando showed this proof of concept the best, using both POKEY (for music) and TIA (for sound effects)

Interesting about Commando. Steve Golson in his seminar revealed the original intent was for Maria to actually have sound capabilities, but that was cut for reasons. Then they evidently had to go with Plan B, Pokey on some carts. Not sure if that is common knowledge, it was new info to me when he said it.

 

[+darryl1970]

 

- In terms of improvement, I sort of agree. After all, wasn't the name of the 7800 derived from having "5200 graphics with 2600 compatibility"

 

- That said, it had some notable improvements over the Colecovision and the 5200. There is no way either system was ever going to match the 7800 in terms of the number of sprites it could display. the amount of colours in those sprites etc. That was the 7800's advantage over many competitors including the NES. The Colecovision also suffered severely against the Atari systems and the NES/SMS in terms of lacking hardware assisted scrolling.

 

- Crownland running on 1979 hardware. I hear what you're saying but it's not quite accurate. Crownland uses a GTIA chip (IRC) which was added to the A8 line in 1981 and runs on 128K machines, which were introduced in 1985.

 

- Yes, the 7800 generally uses lower resolution 160 pixel wide graphics modes with only a few games using the higher resolution 320 modes. This is a bit of a disadvantage over the Colecovision, NES and SMS, though those are still low resolution in the grand scheme of things. I do say that whenever I've shown my friends the 7800 running games like Alien Brigade or Commando or Scrapyard Dog, the common comment is "Oh - was this Atari's NES competitor).

 

And indeed, the 7800's sound problems are well known. Though again, GCCs intent was not that most 7800 games would rely on TIA sound. Their idea was that most 7800 games would use some form of in-cart sound chip and the design of the 7800 carts to support this was done out of the gate, not as an afterthought. Ballblazer was a proof of concept. The reason it didn't happen was for the same reason so few games include extra RAM, the cartridges never got beyond 144K, the manuals weren't 4 colour and the cartridges didn't have battery backups. The Tramiels didn't want to pay for it.

 

Commando showed this proof of concept the best, using both POKEY (for music) and TIA (for sound effects)

 

- In many respects, the 7800 was most hampered by poor developers. You cite, for example, the poor Donkey Kong port. This was done during the Tramiel era where they outsourced development 3rd parties that could deliver on the lowest price. What makes the 7800 homebrew scene exciting for me is when homebrewers fix games like Donkey Kong

 

Very nicely put and balanced. I suppose programming had an impact on the early releases too. In addition to lack of experience with the hardware, many of the games were probably rushed a little. They were games that had already been available on other Atari systems, so they weren't going to be the major draw to the system. (Much like how Nintendo really slacked on their "Classic" series games, leaving out a lot of detail) Had things gone as planned, the sound issue would have been remedied, and the Maria definitely had sprite power that other systems didn't have at the time.

 

It really bothered me that Ms Pac-Man was STILL not truly round, and the monsters still had square eyes. These types of shortcomings felt inexcusable at the time for me. Dig Dug is a scrunched color blob when moving vertically. Disappointing as well. Higher resolution is needed to fix that problem. I felt the next gen system should have been able to perfectly reproduce games that were 2-3 years old at the time! The 7800 only fixed half of the problems with the 8-bit conversions graphically, and they stepped backward in sound.

 

As seen in the 320 Pac versions there are not enough colors in 320 mode, and the sprite overlap ruins that idea for a public release. However, it is a little redeeming in that it has 320 mode. It works for the even older games, as well as a couple newer (Scramble and Frenzy, to list a couple). In the end, I realize Maria has a lot of pluses that outweigh that limitation, and I understand that it can do things that the A8s can't quite match. I am glad you see what my actual point was more about the advancement not being that apparent, generation-ally speaking. It wasn't an NES to Genesis difference, but I do realize the sacrifice of resolution allowed for more complex, colorful games in other ways. I have to keep telling myself that the sound would have been better if things had gone as planned in 1984. I cannot play games with the sound turned down. For me, it's a big part of the experience. The horrible sounds can skew the nicest looking game.

 

I also agree that it is exciting when the homebrew community fixes bad ports. I OWN "Pokey Kong" on cartridge. It is impressive. I do not recall the thread, but Perry mentioned that it runs below 30 fps. (I have 15 or 24 in my head). Mario does seem to walk a little more incremented than the arcade or A8 versions. I remember reading that Perry was hoping to achieve a higher frame rate in a DK2 or DK Remix conversion. That would be from scratch though. I notice Mario Bros has a suffering frame rate also. These could be limitations of the original programmers. You are right that they were budget programmers. I believe they were converted ports of the NES, as opposed to fresh applications.

 

I forgot about the CTIA to GTIA upgrade being later in life, but it wasn't really a huge difference (128 more colors?). The main functionality was unchanged. As far as Crowland goes, 128K is only necessary for the extent of the full version. The basic functionality is available in a 40K demo. I am looking more at the capability, which is there at 40K. I am able to play Mr Do on my 5200, which requires somewhere between 48K - 64K, so I don't think it's completely out of reach for a 5200 release. That wasn't really my point in using Crowland. It's more about how the A8s have a lot of potential that is rarely tapped. They are ignored in the homebrew world. Most old homebrews were created at a time when people didn't think of pushing a system. The A8 homebrew majority, that the system is judged on, comes from a time when people were trying to figure out computer programming. Modern day homebrews take advantage of object-oriented concepts and pushing systems to their limits. The A8s do not have the same number of people trying to push the system to it's limits, with the exception of a few games like Crowland and AtariBlast. Due to Atari's inner battles (home computer vs video game division), I think the generation was too spread thin to ever see the true potential of the hardware. When the 5200 was released, it was easier to convert old lazy A8 ports than push the system. It still wasn't a good measuring stick of capability. I would assume that software sprite routines use space that could be utilized for additional game logic.That would be another advantage of the 7800, but again similarly looking end results.

 

I really enjoy the 7800 homebrew scene. I also own Frenzy and Pac-Man Collection. Pac-Man Collection sits on a shelf, because I cannot stomach the sounds -- especially Pac-Man's "Whacka". I burnt the Pac-Man Collection Pokey version to a chip, and I play it on an old, socketed, BallBlazer cart. That makes a huge difference. I don't play Frenzy for the same reason, in addition to slow frame rate. I love that it uses 320 mode. It's a perfect game for that, but the sounds are worse than the 2600 version (the 2600 was actually pretty close). Froggie is pretty awesome. If I had to play it in TIA mode, I'd be completely turned off, although I am VERY impressed with the sound in TIA mode. For TIA, it is really close! I also realize that Donkey Kong on the 2600 doesn't sound like nails on a chalkboard.

[Defender_2600]

 

It really bothered me that Ms Pac-Man was STILL not truly round, and the monsters still had square eyes. These types of shortcomings felt inexcusable at the time for me. Dig Dug is a scrunched color blob when moving vertically. Disappointing as well. Higher resolution is needed to fix that problem.

 

 

 

No, simply bad pixel art. In my graphics Hacks, I have drawn 'round' Ms. Pac-Man sprites and more arcade accurate Dig Dug sprites.

 

 

 

 

 

[Defender_2600]

As seen in the 320 Pac versions there are not enough colors in 320 mode, and the sprite overlap ruins that idea for a public release.

 

 

In truth, Ms. Pac-Man 320 was born as an experiment and, some time ago, PacManPlus said: "... and have always wanted to re-do them ...". Therefore, maybe one day, Bob could take a further look.

 

Theoretically, to enable transparency is sufficient to disable the Kangaroo mode and then it is necessary update the graphics sprites using C1 (or background) adjacent to C2 or C3. Bob is already using this method with his Baby Pac-Man.

 

Here is my suggestion for graphics sprites:

 

 

[BassGuitari]

I was always annoyed the maze and ghost palettes of the 7800 version of Ms. Pac-Man. All the washed-out looking pink and teal (on the first maze, anyway) reminds me a CGA PC game.

[Mister-VCS]

Colecovision came with Donkey Kong and had other arcade games to play at home and was cheaper than the 5200 which came with Breakout.

The 5200's games were initially better versions of what was on the 2600, games which we already had, and 2600 games were good enough to justify not re-buying the same titles and a new 5200 system.

The 2600 was developed in 1975 for a 1977 release, improved upon in 1979 to the Atari 400/800 computer which is also the 5200.

The 2600 was also improved upon a 2nd time in 1984 into the 7800 by GCC for Atari.

The ColecoVision was released in 1982 so it should far outshine the 2600 and 5200 but programming at that time kept all 3 systems competitive. The ColecoVision being under-utilized, while the 2600 was pushed light years beyond its intended usage.

The 7800 had two additional years of technology over the ColecoVision.

The point I am trying to make is escaping me, so I best stop here.

 

 

I owned a CV between 1992 and 2010 (with perfect working standard controllers). The problem is the lame Z-80 CPU and the 16 color limitiation.

Yes, many Atari games are more fun in the comparison.

Good games: River Raid, Turbo, Donkey Kong /JR., H.E.R.O., Mouse Trap, Carnival, Lady Bug, Venture, Antarctic Adventure.

[+darryl1970]

 

 

In truth, Ms. Pac-Man 320 was born as an experiment and, some time ago, PacManPlus said: "... and have always wanted to re-do them ...". Therefore, maybe one day, Bob could take a further look.

 

Theoretically, to enable transparency is sufficient to disable the Kangaroo mode and then it is necessary update the graphics sprites using C1 (or background) adjacent to C2 or C3. Bob is already using this method with his Baby Pac-Man.

 

Here is my suggestion for graphics sprites:

 

 

Ms. Pac-man 320 _sprites with transparency_ V4.PNG

The Ms Pac-Man characters do look better. At that resolution, though, the monsters would have to be really wide to have truly round eyes (or proper coat tails). Pixel placement does help smooth over the low resolution. You did nice work. The blur of an NTSC TV actually does kind of smooth it out even more.

 

I especially like the Dig Dug updates. I really don't mind the low resolution with those changes in place. If somebody would remake a Pokey edition, it would be sweet! The original A8 version had better music, while the 5200 had better sound effects. Music and sound would either have to be from scratch or a mix and match of the two previous Pokey versions, since neither were spot on. (I was kind of annoyed at Atari's lame music in the 5200 version)

 

I really need to take some time to learn about Kangaroo mode. Are you saying that disabling Kangaroo mode would allow transparencies? So, what purpose is Kangaroo mode? Is it more colors at the expense of transparency??

 

So, Pac/Ms 320 could be done differently, to overcome the transparency issue and retain all the colors?

 

I am peaked!\

 

EDIT: I just noticed that the eyes are weird in the transparency mock-up. Didn't notice that before. Would it slow everything down too much to make the eyes separate sprites? That way they could be true white with blue pupils?

Edited July 23, 2018 by darryl1970