Colecovision vs 7800 vs 5200

[+darryl1970]

 

I'd be satisfied with just POKEY audio. Well, taking POKEY audio out of every single A8/5200 game that was also released for the 7800 and inserting it into the 7800 titles.

I am a 5200 fan, but the Pokey music in 5200 Dig Dug is really poor. The music needs redone. The crappy 8-bit version of Dig Dug actually has more accurate music, but the 5200 has more accurate sound effects. Go figure!?

[+darryl1970]

 

I'd be satisfied with just POKEY audio. Well, taking POKEY audio out of every single A8/5200 game that was also released for the 7800 and inserting it into the 7800 titles.

Arghh.. I double posted. This time I did it from the PC. Sorry!

Edited June 25, 2015 by darryl1970

[Lynxpro]

I am a 5200 fan, but the Pokey music in 5200 Dig Dug is really poor. The music needs redone. The crappy 8-bit version of Dig Dug actually has more accurate music, but the 5200 has more accurate sound effects. Go figure!?

 

Bump, because I don't remember reading this comment. Perhaps that's part of the trade-off of having SFX and music both being handled by a single POKEY whether we're talking about the A8 version or the improved 5200 version. An improved 7800 version could keep the SFX being done by the TIA and then hand off the music to the POKEY. And that's just with a cart-based POKEY/HOKEY without even embracing XM features.

 

Just for the love of a good hack just for the hell of it [excuse me, "proof of concept"], I'd love to see a game that used TIA, POKEY/HOKEY and DPC(+). That would prove yet again that both Atari Inc and Atari Corp didn't maximize their use of off-the-shelf solutions.

 

It still blows me away that Activision never used - or licensed - the DPC on subsequent 2600 and 7800 titles. Me thinks someone should ask David Crane about that…or why he didn't use it over at Absolute.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Lynxpro

[+swlovinist]

I owned and played alot of each of the three systems and here are my thoughts on the matter.

 

1. 7800 is my first choice between the three. The library included many of the Atari 2600 arcade classics with updated graphics. The controller was not my favorite, but many of the games could be played with a Sega Genesis controller. Also there was the EU control pad as well as modded nes pads to work on the system. The homebrew library led by the wonderful creations of PacManPlus are some of the best around. The system for me personally has had the least of problems, as well as having the added benefit of playing many 2600 games without an adaptor.

 

2. The Colecovision is my second choice. The library has some great arcade ports, as well as having a strong homebrew support with many additional arcade games that got converted to the system. I got a Yurkie ball mod on my system and it makes a big difference. The original controller is not my favorite and I am glad that there options to bypass it/mod it. Overall I feel that while the Colecovision benefited from having some of the best graphics of the three, the gameplay I feel is not as intense and fast as the 7800. I also feel that the homebrew scene was targeted to more collectors than gamers when it came down to games that I personally would play. As for hardware issues, I have had about half of my Coleco systems crap out and die from various issues. Nice the system had an option to play 2600 titles with an adaptor.

 

3. The Atari 5200 is a good system...that had a terrible original design and controller. I got myself a two port and have not looked back. The system did have some great updates to classic 2600 games. I feel that minus a few titles, it is hard to recommend this system over an XE, which had the added benefit of using standard Atari controllers and tons more games. I feel that Space Dungeon is one of the best exclusives. The Robotron port to me really sucked compared to the 7800 version(which I made my own dual stick controller). There is a homebrew scene, which many are converted Atari computer ports. Adventure II is my favorite homebrew. The system itself is pretty durable...but dang that controller is a piece of crap. Spend the money and get an controller adapter and dont look back. The real question with this system is to decide whether or not to collect for this, or go the Atari 8 bit computer route.

[DracIsBack]

Colecovision has some of the best graphics of the three? With that wimpy palette, the monochrome sprites, limited sprites per scan line, limited on screen colours and no hardware scrolling???

 

Sorry ... So don't agree there

[Lynxpro]

Colecovision has some of the best graphics of the three? With that wimpy palette, the monochrome sprites, limited sprites per scan line, limited on screen colours and no hardware scrolling???

 

Sorry ... So don't agree there

 

 

I think some people believe the Colecovision has better graphics than the 5200 because certain ports seemed to look a lot better on the Colecovision despite the limitations of that TI graphics chip. Gyruss in particular.

 

But there's absolutely no way the Colecovision has better graphics than the 7800.

 

As for the 5200, when the joystick works, it's better than the 7800 ProLine. And the 5200 has the CX53 Trak-Ball controller. That's reason enough to collect for it. Plus, 5200 Paddles rock.

[+darryl1970]

Deleted.. Posted in error

Edited January 4, 2016 by darryl1970

[+darryl1970]

 

 

I think some people believe the Colecovision has better graphics than the 5200 because certain ports seemed to look a lot better on the Colecovision despite the limitations of that TI graphics chip. Gyruss in particular.

 

But there's absolutely no way the Colecovision has better graphics than the 7800.

 

As for the 5200, when the joystick works, it's better than the 7800 ProLine. And the 5200 has the CX53 Trak-Ball controller. That's reason enough to collect for it. Plus, 5200 Paddles rock.

Yes.. I see it this way...

 

The ColecoVision had higher resolution sprites than the 5200, and had more at their disposal. They would often have a multi-color main character and mono enemies. Likewise, the ColecoVision sprites were higher resolution than the commonly used 160-mode sprites on the 7800. I bring this up as an example of how the 7800's multi colored sprites makes up for the lower resolution at 160 res. The 7800 would have the edge where 320 mode sprites were usable.

 

The 5200 had less sprites than Coleco, but was more likely to have multi-color characters, because Atari was better with color manipulation (display list interrupts, etc). Additionally, the Atari seemed to be better at using software sprites, which meant more colorful enemies. The trade off was that the software sprite enemies shared the background colors. This could make things seem washed out. (That is where 7800 has an advantage) Also, software sprites had weird overlaps or blocky movement, depending on the technique used to render them. The 5200 could edge the ColecoVision out in the overall look, using creativity. ColecoVision seemed to choke a little with multiple objects being rendered.

 

A few examples would be Mario Bros, Dk Jr., and Mr. Do. Speaking pure capability, do not judge on the artist's rendition, but the tools at the disposal. Mr. Do (actually the A8), has a multi colored main character. All of the enemies are multi colored. Animation is as smooth as the arcade rendition. The ColecoVision uses a pure white Mr. Do and single color enemies. The controls are horrendous, the animation is choppy and is way off. The enemies move as if the program is in BASIC.

 

Donkey Kong Jr is an example where the Atari uses more colorful objects, but the character graphics can tend to be a little jerky. I recently updated the graphics, with the help of Playsoft and Tep392. It is an example that the foundation was there, and many shortcomings were just graphic interpretation and possible lack of development testing. Modifying the existing graphics made a HUGE difference. Small tweaks in the boundaries made it even better. Not much more could be done with Coleco's version. Graphics could be cleaned up, but the enemies would still be mono. There would also be less, where the A8 pushes out as many snapjaws and nitpickers as the arcade, without slowdown or flicker.

 

Mario Bros is a good example, because it is beautiful on the CV. It has the advantage of virtually unlimited RAM, better development tools, and a talented programmer. Many of the objects look great, and it plays smoothly. However, it still has a multi-colored main character and mono enemies. I would consider this game highly optimized and pushing the CV to it's limits. Yet, it still doesn't have much of an edge over the original 5200 in terms of capabilities. The 5200 has multi-colored Mario & Luigi, as well as the enemies. The graphic shortcomings (floors, etc) have more to do with the artists than the tools available. The Pipes have really nice shading, all of the animation is present, and it's very strong considering it is only 16k. Likewise, the XE Mario Bros is a better example of 1988 development tools and techniques. Even stronger. The shortcoming is that the artists didn't draw a very accurate Mario or Luigi.. (I would love to clean that up).

 

All-in-all, I'd say the 5200/A8 isn't THAT far behind the 7800 in terms of graphics. There are some advantages with the Maria chip, which can be huge if used properly. Maria is impressive, but it was not enough of a jump from what we already had. That is why I am often disappointed with the 7800. If 320 mode didn't cause some of the issues, I would be happier. The sound is like nails on a chalkboard. Also, the 5200 had awesome sticks. The Start, Pause, Reset on stick, as well as keyboard were great. They were comfortable. The only issue (Which is HUGE) is reliability. The self-center thing could have made them more appealing, but they were not REALLY difficult. I think that was just people listening to the press (or lacking skill), as my friends and I never had issues. The reliability made the press diggs seem real.

 

I still LOVE all three, even the Coleco. I like the 7800, but I don't think it lived up to the hype. Galaga 7800 has to be the ugliest excuse for the game, the enemy patterns are off, and Maria seems to hog up too much CPU time to form a proper geometric flight pattern (the enemies move like there are missing frames). It's sad! Other games have redeemed it somewhat for me. It's a toss up. I am just saying it wasn't the "arcade" experience we were promised in 1984.

 

I think the 5200 was the strongest for its time. It had the overall deal. The unreliable joysticks were its downfall. It also had lack of support at first (Atari should have slowly dropped the 2600 and put more into the 5200). Breakout was a STUPID pack-in. The ColecoVision had fresh titles and Donkey Kong. That was big. It had nice, clean sound, and it was the right price. They all hold a special place in my heart, and classic gaming wouldn't be the same without any of them.

 

Mr Do A8 Mr Do Coleco

 

DK Jr A8 (Update) DK Jr Coleco A8 Graphic Enhanced Update

 

Mario Bros A8 Coleco Mario XE (A8)

Edited January 4, 2016 by darryl1970

[gambler172]

Well...i prefer the 7800.

Cause we have Bob.....

Greetings Walter

Edited January 4, 2016 by gambler172

[DracIsBack]

 

I still LOVE all three, even the Coleco. I like the 7800, but I don't think it lived up to the hype.

 

Yes, and you seem utterly obsessed with coming in here to try and convince 7800 fans of this. Like you won't be satisfied t until everyone who likes the 7800 says,

 

"Gosh Golly Gee, Darryl - you must be right! Damn, the 7800 really isn't any good! The 5200 and A8 are so amazing they'll bring world peace. Atari really should have continued them and never done the 7800. It really kinda sucked! Damn those 'floaty graphics'. You were right!"

[VectorGamer]

You can own and enjoy all 3 systems

 

There are games on the 5200 that are better than on the other two systems

 

There are games on the ColecoVision that are better than on the other two systems

 

With the Atari 7800 we have Bob

 

In this day you don't have to settle for one system. You can own all 3 and play the best of the bunch.

 

But for me the ColecoVision is #1, followed by Atari 7800 and Atari 5200. It wasn't until i got the AtariMax Ultimate SD cart for the 5200 that I truly appreciated what the system had to offer.

[+darryl1970]

 

Yes, and you seem utterly obsessed with coming in here to try and convince 7800 fans of this. Like you won't be satisfied t until everyone who likes the 7800 says,

 

"Gosh Golly Gee, Darryl - you must be right! Damn, the 7800 really isn't any good! The 5200 and A8 are so amazing they'll bring world peace. Atari really should have continued them and never done the 7800. It really kinda sucked! Damn those 'floaty graphics'. You were right!"

What is wrong with you? This isn't a place to fight about things. It's a place to share your views. Just because your view is different doesn't mean you have to attack somebody. I am not trying to convince "7800 fans" of anything. I am just stating facts about different games. I didn't dog on the 7800. I just said it wasn't the leap forward that it could have been, which is a disappointment.

Edited January 4, 2016 by darryl1970

[+darryl1970]

You can own and enjoy all 3 systems

 

There are games on the 5200 that are better than on the other two systems

 

There are games on the ColecoVision that are better than on the other two systems

 

With the Atari 7800 we have Bob

 

In this day you don't have to settle for one system. You can own all 3 and play the best of the bunch.

 

But for me the ColecoVision is #1, followed by Atari 7800 and Atari 5200. It wasn't until i got the AtariMax Ultimate SD cart for the 5200 that I truly appreciated what the system had to offer.

I am waiting for my 5200 and ColecoVision AtariMax carts to arrive in the mail.

 

I wish they still made something like this for the 7800. It's not a matter of piracy. I am just tired of swapping carts!

[+darryl1970]

Well...i prefer the 7800.

Cause we have Bob.....

Greetings Walter

I bought the Berzerk/Frenzy game from AtariAge. It is worth having a game that takes advantage of the 320 mode sprites.

Would the XM module allow for voice during gameplay.

 

Better sound and clearer voice would be awesome.

[toiletunes]

I have all three. The 7800 gets the most use, hands down. PacManPlus is a big reason, but even without him, 7800 still gets more game time.

[+Cafeman]

I probably replied to this thread last year, here's an update of my thoughts on the comparison.

 

Without the homebrew market, I'd pick the 5200. I could play it forever, awesome smooth and fast-paced games, the controllers are comfortable, and it has good Pokey-chip sounds.

 

CV's library looks interesting at first, but quickly loses any fun, to me. 7800's library is even worse. I would play 7800 Asteroids and Food Fight, and that was about it. Most of the original 7800 games have awful sound and I don't like the feel of many of them.

 

But with homebrews, 7800 is currently my most-played system. Bob DeC's Pac-Man /space shooter / Frenzy ports are great fun. I also have played a lot of Q*bert port "B*nQ", the new 7800 DK Arcade, and most recently 7800 Dungeon Stalker.

 

I never bought any CV homebrews, but I've seen pictures and videos of many and they are high quality no doubt - but my CV needs some work (new power switch - it has sprite graphics errors).

 

(but I play more 2600 games on my 7800 than the other systems combined).

[BydoEmpire]

I've enjoyed the 5200 the most of the three - the games have a fast feel, and it has a strong library overall with lots of great arcade ports. Picked mine up around 2005 and it's been one of my most-played consoles - modern or classic - since.

 

I had a 7800 back in the late 80s, but I also had an NES so while I did enjoy the system, I never had a huge library for it. Quite a few really good arcade ports, but also lots of meh games. The Painlines are my least-favorite controller ever, but fortunately I have a Euro pad and lots of games work fine w/ a standard 2600 stick. I don't have any homebrews for it but there's a lot of great-looking stuff out there if budget allows. 2600 compatibility is a big bonus.

 

I've had a lot of Colecovisions over the last 20 years. I didn't have one in the early 80s, but I did pick them up on and off at yard sales, etc. I'm just not a big fan. The stock controllers are my second-least favorite (next to the Painlines), although after playing a lot of the CV Flashback maybe it was just because every CV controller I had used previously was old and crusty. For me it was the Sports controller or nothing. Fortunately the Flashback controllers are very usable. In fact, that's the only way I play CV games now. Love, love, love Frenzy and Venture, but the system and the library never grabbed me the way the 5200's did. There are certainly lots of good games.

 

If I have to put them in order, that's it. Ask me tomorrow and I may flip the 7800 & CV. If I had to pick only one console and it's library forever, that'd be a difficult choice.

[Jinks]

I love my 7800. With Bob and the 7800 it is a easy win.

 

I have a coleco and a 8bit atari. So I have a good idea of a8 games. I can not imagine buying another system to fix as all the phone controller systems of the 80s are delicate things that require lots of work to keep running.

 

I hate 3 things with a consoles controllers. Any controller that does not have a standard atari 2600 joystick port. And any controller with buttons on the side. Also trs 80 non centre type of controllers which is a stupid idea but ok once you are used to them. Anolog pacman anyone?

 

Today we have tons of controllers to choose from and more people offering a new stick for sale every month it seems. May be the great homebrew joystick crash of 2016? .

[+darryl1970]

I love my 7800. With Bob and the 7800 it is a easy win.

 

I have a coleco and a 8bit atari. So I have a good idea of a8 games. I can not imagine buying another system to fix as all the phone controller systems of the 80s are delicate things that require lots of work to keep running.

 

I hate 3 things with a consoles controllers. Any controller that does not have a standard atari 2600 joystick port. And any controller with buttons on the side. Also trs 80 non centre type of controllers which is a stupid idea but ok once you are used to them. Anolog pacman anyone?

 

Today we have tons of controllers to choose from and more people offering a new stick for sale every month it seems. May be the great homebrew joystick crash of 2016? .

I remember trying a TRS-80 joystick when I was younger. It didn't even feel like a joystick. It was too small to grab onto, and it WANTED to be anywhere BUT center. It was the weirdest joystick for me. Before that, it was the Intellivision disc. Sometimes I wonder if the Intellivision disc was really as bad as I thought, since I loved the NES, SEGA, and other joypads to follow. Maybe it was "George Plimpton" bias. Seriously though, I don't think it was that. Those discs were just awkward. Modern day joypads give something to grab onto. The vertical disc at the bottom and side buttons still seem awkward to me. Maybe someday I'll get around to giving them a shot. I keep thinking I should add an Inty to my collection, but then I ask myself why?

 

I digress.. The TRS-80 thing brought back memories, and that was my reason for commenting.

[Jinks]

I do love trs 80 tho. They did have a centering joystick as well.

For movement for me intellivision works ok. But firing discs with the number pad while moving with the disc like how the hell??

[Jaynz]

Dammit. Now I want Mr. Do for the 7800...

[+darryl1970]

Dammit. Now I want Mr. Do for the 7800...

In order to really make it stand out, I would want to see 320 mode used, along with Pokey sound.

The music is a huge part of Mr. Do. The A8 and C-64 both use 160 res characters. The ColecoVision is the only one to use higher resolution, but the characters are single color. Furthermore, the ColecoVision version is SO far off the mark, it loses all of the cool strategy, since the enemies dig too soon. The A8, C-64, Apple II versions are close enough to perform similar traps and snares to what is seen in the video.

 

The SNES is almost perfect, except the collision box for Mr. Do himself are off just a little. Notice in the video above how I drop the apple between Mr. Do and the cherries. The apple grazes Mr.Do, but it doesn't crush him. Mr. Do would still get crushed by the apple in the SNES version. Otherwise it's pretty spot on.

 

I would expect the 7800, in 320 mode & Pokey, to be able to outshine the SNES version! That would be sweet! It would be nice to retain the aspect ratio of the arcade.

 

On a side note, I wonder if the ColecoVision is more capable. Mr. Do is a z80 game. I wonder if a conversion, such as OpCode's Pac Collection, would be possible; or would there be too much going on for the Coleco to push through?

 

Just happened to have these on the HD, so sharing for the heck of it. (From A8 version)

 

Edited January 5, 2016 by darryl1970

[Jaynz]

Outshine the SUPER Nintendo Version? Um, no...

 

And while I think Mr Do would benefit from a Pokey, the game probably should be written to see if a Pokey (or equivalent) exists first, and default to a TIA sound if it isn't there.

[+darryl1970]

 

I have all three. The 7800 gets the most use, hands down. PacManPlus is a big reason, but even without him, 7800 still gets more game time.

 

I have the Pac-Man Collection on cart. Really wish the Pokey version would have been released at that time, or even use the sound from the new Pac-Man 8k. The whacka "crunch" really MAKES the Pac-Man experience for me. I love PMC, but it doesn't draw me in as much as it would, because sound is a huge part of the gaming experience for me personally.

 

I am not always happy with just dumping A8 sounds into the 7800 version when adding Pokey. Some of the A8 sounds were not as good as they could have been. My mind has been blown by how close some of the newer Pokey version of Pac-Col have come. (eg: when Ms Pac eats a monster, there's a version that is DEAD ON). I play the 320Pokey and Pac-Col Pokey in emulation more, just to hear that accurate sound. Dintar816 has raised the bar on TIA capabilities! His Pac for the 2600 pulls me in visually and audibly, even though he's just using the TIA. I am amazed at how close it comes, given the limitations.

[+darryl1970]

Outshine the SUPER Nintendo Version? Um, no...

 

And while I think Mr Do would benefit from a Pokey, the game probably should be written to see if a Pokey (or equivalent) exists first, and default to a TIA sound if it isn't there.

 

I don't see why it couldn't, but I admit I am not an expert on the system limitations. The Maria chip that I read about in 1984 could move a large number of sprites around the screen, at any size, with multiple colors. It's pretty much a given that Maria should make it possible, in 160 mode, to one-up the A8 or C-64, due to using more colors and no software sprites.

 

I know Super Nintendo sounds intimidating, but Mr. Do doesn't take advantage of any real SNES power. It's an old-school 8-bit game. This is what Maria was built to reproduce. The only real advantage that the SNES took over the older 8-bit systems was the higher resolution. The 7800 HAS the 320 modes, so I don't see why it couldn't handle such an antiquated game. This is the type of game Maria was made to recreate!

 

I am not up on the limitations of the 320 modes. I know they pull even more processing power, but I am not so sure it couldn't handle an SNES equal version. I am not dishing on the SNES version, as much as I am saying that Mr. Do doesn't take advantage of any SNES power really. When the 7800 was released, Dig Dug, Ms Pac-Man, Joust, and games like Mr. Do were the games that it was supposed to "bring home".

 

Please forgive me if you have programming experience with the 7800. I know you may be aware of something that I am ignorant to. I was really excited to find the Maria chip had a 320 mode. In 1986, I was really, really disappointed to find out the "next generation" system I had read about could still not make a round Ms Pac-Man. I am still a little let down at the whole bounding box issue with 320 Ms Pac. Just as Nintendo set out to make a system capable of perfectly bringing their hits home, I expected the same out of the 7800. In 1984, a round Pac-Man with transparency shouldn't have been beyond a system's capability.

 

However, I was told there are other games that do not suffer from the sprite transparency issue. I don't notice it in my Berzerk/Frenzy cart, so I am still hoping! I'd like to think that the use of 160 had a lot to do with RAM issues too. (eg: why waste extra memory on another Ms. Pac-Man version?)

 

As far as the Pokey detection, I agree that would be nice. It would be nice to be able to play the game, but experience better if plugged into the XM or some Pokey, Hokey, etc adapter.