we need a Vectrex Super Mario

[+Gemintronic]

As a homebrew developer I have to agree with PixelBoy. Mario for Marios sake is a powerful force. It's tough because I need feedback on my original ideas. That feedback doesn't come because trying something new is not always what the general populace does.

[jaybird3rd]

Your position comes from a consumer's perspective only. Here's the perspective of a homebrew publisher: These games are expensive to produce in low quantities and I don't want to stay stuck with inventory. I just don't. So the best way for everyone to be happy is to go with the games people actually want to see on their favorite retro console. They're happy because they (finally) get the games they want, and I'm happy because I sell all my copies (and maybe a few more afterwards) and I get my investment back.

 

Originality is nice, but nostalgia and brand recognition are far more potent motivators for selling video games.

Well, if the primary concern is selling games, then I don't know why the developers in question don't just target modern platforms, where there's a much larger audience and more money to be made. There are lots of quirky game systems out there now (like the just-released Nvidia Shield) that are probably starving for exclusive titles, so an original release for these platforms would likely draw many more eyeballs than any new release for a vintage platform. Or, as Glenn put in in the thread I linked to earlier:

 

But I think when the inevitable topic of "what would you like to see next for a homebrew" the assumption is that we're talking about which PORT would you like to see next. The idea that someone would come up with a totally original game, like Oystron which I hold up as the gold standard, is not even considered. And in the Coleco thread people are making a justification why originals are a bad idea that sounds like the marketing department of Infogrames! "Sorry, new ideas are too risky. Known properties will sell better." Is this what the hobby has turned into?

 

As for the issue of inventory control, one way to solve that problem is to build on demand instead of making a truckload of copies up front. One of my purposes in choosing the approach that I took with the Aquaricart for the Mattel Aquarius was to see if a "build-on-demand" model for homebrew cartridges is viable, and I was pleased to discover that it is with the right process (such as designing and building my own circuit boards, designing multi-purpose boxes that can be decorated later for different games, etc). This was a very liberating discovery for me, because I can now proceed to create any games I can imagine, and if only a dozen other people in the world want a copy, who cares? I don't have to worry about being left with any unsold inventory, and the creative process is its own reward.

 

I do agree, though, that gamers can also contribute to this problem by not being adventuresome enough to branch out and try something original, instead of staying within their nostalgic "comfort zones".

[mkiker2089]

I don't get the hate for ports. It's not an either or situation but some still seem to think that way. If Vectrexians and Vector Pilot didn't exist then they just simply would not be. It doesn't mean that their existence wiped out a super original game. We don't have a limit on how many titles to make, it's up to the authors.

 

It's also up to the people who support the authors. If people want ports then it's time to make ports. You can't tell they buying public that they are wrong.

[mkiker2089]

I do agree, though, that gamers can also contribute to this problem by not being adventuresome enough to branch out and try something original, instead of staying within their nostalgic "comfort zones".

 

But that's the thing, it's not a "problem." It's what we want.

Edited August 1, 2013 by mkiker2089

[Pixelboy]

As a homebrew developer I have to agree with PixelBoy. Mario for Marios sake is a powerful force. It's tough because I need feedback on my original ideas. That feedback doesn't come because trying something new is not always what the general populace does.

 

Indeed. For instance, next Christmas I'm going to release a game called "Module Man", which was originally made for the Coco-2 and Dragon 32 computers. Trust me when I say that I love this game and that I wouldn't have bothered to publish a ColecoVision version if the game wasn't fun to play. However, a majority of people have never played the original game back in the eighties, so it could be viewed as an original game where the ColecoVision is concerned, and how well the game will actually sell is anyone's guess. My personal opinion of the game doesn't matter in the long run, so I'll just start with a standard initial run of 75 copies and keep my fingers crossed.

 

But just for the record, I too would like to make and publish something original. But I believe being original just for the sake of originality is not a good approach. If you're going to make something new, it has to have an undefinable quality to it that will intrigue people just from a few screenshots or a single video of the game running.

[+Gemintronic]

I don't get the hate for ports. It's not an either or situation but some still seem to think that way. If Vectrexians and Vector Pilot didn't exist then they just simply would not be. It doesn't mean that their existence wiped out a super original game. We don't have a limit on how many titles to make, it's up to the authors.

 

It's also up to the people who support the authors. If people want ports then it's time to make ports. You can't tell they buying public that they are wrong.

 

In the homebrew community you make what your own internal muse tells you to make. If you want a port then make one. Or, at least support the people who can make it possible: as I said, we should solicit the man responsible for VecOS so more people can make Vectrex homebrew. Maybe one of those new home-brewers will have the same thoughts about Mario. heck! Maybe YOU'LL be the one making it

[VectorGamer]

I don't get that impression. Sales of most homebrew games are of the predictable variety, with the only variable being the platform (meaning roughly 10 - 250 or so copies). A variation on a popular pre-existing game would almost surely sell the same amount of limited copies as an exact copy. I'll take anything, but I always prefer something original or an expanded vision of an existing game, rather than a clone, which is unnecessary in today's world of emulation.

 

I know we're talking homebrews, but I think Atari 2600's Pac-Man is a good example where sales were good but a vast number of gamers were disappointed with the product mainly because it wasn't a clone (or even remotely close like what became Pac-Man Arcade) of the arcade game. So, my point is a homebrew may sell out but are gamers going to be satisfied with a product that strays far from the original formula?

 

Despite the era of emulation, there are people like me (despite the fact that I own MAME cabinets) that still like to fire up Galaxian on the ColecoVision instead of on an emulator. Emulation and console translations offer two different gaming experiences that I both enjoy.

[Pixelboy]

As for the issue of inventory control, one way to solve that problem is to build on demand instead of making a truckload of copies up front.

 

Uuuh... no.

 

If you have a day job and you want to spend your evenings and week-ends doing interesting things (like programming new games or other game-related activities), then glueing boxes, assembling cartridges and preparing packages on demand will quickly become a boring and intrusive chore for you. It sure is for me. That's why I like to manufacture enough copies towards a target release date: When the release date is reached and orders start pouring in, you process all the orders over the span of two or three weeks at most, and afterwards you're free to move on to other projects. Of course there are always late-comers, but those occasional orders aren't much of a bother to process. Working "on demand" doesn't work if you're a lone guy doing all the order processing during your free time.

[mkiker2089]

I know we're talking homebrews, but I think Atari 2600's Pac-Man is a good example where sales were good but a vast number of gamers were disappointed with the product mainly because it wasn't a clone

 

Not really a great comparison though. Pac Man was awful and if it were first the arcade version would have still made it look awful. The annoying music, the HORRIBLE flicker and the strange sounds were why people hate it. I actually liked it until I played a more recent hack of it and saw that the flicker can be controlled.

 

To me a better example is Pesco. It's a Pac-Man clone and some people really enjoy it, myself included, yet some don't. It has a review on here somewhere advising people to just hunt down Pac-Man and be done with it. In that I think you come back to not being able to please everyone so you just make the best game you can and hit your target demographic.

Edited August 1, 2013 by mkiker2089

[AtariLeaf]

*sigh* I may be in the minority, but I think the world needs LESS SMB games, not more.

[mkiker2089]

Then by all means let me know of a better platformer idea.

 

The Vectrex has a hole in it's library. Can we all at least agree on that?

[+Gemintronic]

Then by all means let me know of a better platformer idea.

 

The Vectrex has a hole in it's library. Can we all at least agree on that?

 

My reference to Spike got zero attention. Not many comments about Super Spike either. I'd say give those a try!

[jaybird3rd]

Working "on demand" doesn't work if you're a lone guy doing all the order processing during your free time.

I don't think you even read the rest of what I wrote, but as I said, I've found that it works perfectly well for me. You do have to have some common sense about it; it wouldn't be wise to take the idea too far and start accepting orders without having built ANY copies at all, for example.

 

For any legacy platform, there is a "floor" and a "ceiling": a certain minimum level of demand among collectors who will want copies of any new homebrew game, and a maximum number of copies of a popular game that you can reasonably expect to sell. You just have to have a sense of where those numbers are for your particular platform of choice. Then, when the time comes to release a game, build slightly more than the minimum number up-front to see you through the first rush of initial orders, and build on demand for the latecomers. It doesn't really take that much time: if I have the materials on hand, I can build a decent-sized batch of cartridges and boxes within a few hours, and it's a repetitive enough process that I can be thinking about other things in the meantime. Granted, every platform is different: I'm sure there isn't as much demand for Aquarius cartridges as there is for ColecoVision cartridges, for example, so my particular process might not scale well to larger volumes. But the point is that there are ways to solve these kinds of problems, and that logistical issues needn't be an excuse to stop anyone from going beyond ports and creating original games.

[jaybird3rd]

The Vectrex has a hole in it's library. Can we all at least agree on that?

I'm not completely opposed in principle to the idea of doing ports. The Vectrex is a special case in that it's a vector-based game system, and its original library was very limited. Ports can be a great way to fill the gaps in the library, while making unique "vectorized" versions of the original games at the same time. There's creativity in that, too. But in most other cases (and as Bill pointed out earlier), emulation can give you almost the exact same experience as the most conscientiously-executed port, so why bother doing the port?

 

I'm not trying to change anybody's mind on the issue of ports versus originals; I already know that I'm in the minority on this. If someone wants to see Super Mario Brothers on the Vectrex badly enough to make it, why then, go ahead and make it. I'm just pointing out that our little hobby would benefit from a bit more introspection. Developers who want to create only carbon-copy ports, and players who don't want anything else, are making the homebrew gaming scene in general less vibrant and creative than it could otherwise be.

[+Gemintronic]

The last two games I have been contracted out for were because both clients had a dream. Both had gone radically different career paths than game developer. If I didn't create their games then all that bottled up art would never have happened. I just can't see regurgitating Miyamoto when I can make something new and beautiful happen.

[mkiker2089]

My reference to Spike got zero attention. Not many comments about Super Spike either. I'd say give those a try!

 

Spike is more like Donkey Kong and just doesn't speak to me. Super Spike might be more suited to me though.

[Emehr]

For the record, I'm not against ports. I own many 2600 and 7800 homebrews that are ports. I will buy a port if I'm interested in the game, it's well-programmed, and, importantly, era-specific (Boulder Dash, Medieval Mayhem, Go Fish!). The more obscure to me, the better (Crazy Balloon, Colony 7, Star Fire). I'll even buy a hack if it improves on the original (Missile Command trackball hack, Berzerk VE).

 

While it's a cool technical achievement and I applaud the programmer, I simply don't care to play Super Mario Bros on the 2600. I can play that on my NES in its pure form. A 2600 version exists only to say "Hey, look. Somebody made Super Mario Bros for the Atari!". That's it. Where does it go from there? How many of those people will come back to it after the initial buzz wears off? How many will play it regularly? Then there are the people that will put it on a shelf like a trophy they had no part in earning. Is that what the homebrew community is turning into? "Let's see if we can make Zelda for the Atari!" "You're on! It'll sell because Zelda!"

 

Games like Toyshop Trouble and Stay Frosty add value to the 2600's library and help define this generation of Atari 2600 software. Ports of popular games that came out for newer hardware do not. They recall an image of the late-80s Atari scene when the 2600 was put back on life support to live an unfulfilling life running barely-playable ports of Rampage, Double Dragon, and Kung-Fu Master. I'm getting that vibe all over again with Super Mario Bros and this wave of "Hey, they made Doom Nuke'em on the Atari! LOLZBURGER".

[jaybird3rd]

Exactly. It's like watching a dancing bear: it's entertaining only for a short while, and only because the bear isn't supposed to be able to dance at all, not because the dancing is any good. If too many people buy too many of those types of homebrew games, they eventually discover that they've spent hundreds of dollars on fancy, dust-collecting geek trophies which brought them about twenty minutes' worth of entertainment, and then they don't buy any more homebrew games, which hurts other homebrew authors who are trying to create original, more enduring work.

[mkiker2089]

Exactly. It's like watching a dancing bear: it's entertaining only for a short while, and only because the bear isn't supposed to be able to dance at all, not because the dancing is any good. If too many people buy too many of those types of homebrew games, they eventually discover that they've spent hundreds of dollars on fancy, dust-collecting geek trophies which brought them about twenty minutes' worth of entertainment, and then they don't buy any more homebrew games, which hurts other homebrew authors who are trying to create original, more enduring work.

 

You couldn't be more wrong. I enjoy Princess Rescue immensely and I've been playing it for months. It's an excellent game that would be excellent even if SMB never existed and Chris deserves more respect for his work this. Chris's game makes other homebrews look like poo.

 

I really don't get the vitriol here. So i take it that by making Princess Rescue some excellent "original" Atari game was aborted?

 

I will say that we are almost on the same page. People have been asking for games that would suck on classic consoles like Smash Bros, TNMT and such. Each console has strengths and weaknesses. 2d platformers can work on the Vectrex and 2600 though.

Edited August 1, 2013 by mkiker2089

[jaybird3rd]

So i take it that by making Princess Rescue some excellent "original" Atari game was aborted?

I was speaking in a more general way, not referring specifically to Princess Rescue (which I've never seen). I'm not saying that every "bad port" necessarily means that a "good original" was aborted, either; there isn't that kind of a direct causal connection.

 

I'll put it this way: if independent filmmakers never tried to make anything but low-budget remakes of Hollywood blockbusters, filmed in black-and-white 16mm to make them look like old movies, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many indie enthusiasts as there are now. People like indie films in part because, at their best, they try to do something original and different, and because the filmmakers have something interesting to say, not because they're trying to copy what others have done because "that's what the audience wants."

 

There are exceptions, of course, but I still see homebrew games as too reliant on outright clones and unauthorized uses of established game properties. Among the more "artistic" reasons why this is undesirable, it can also attract the wrong kind of attention from the owners of these properties, which gives homebrew games a bad name. What is needed is more original ideas, and ideas that are appropriate for the intended target platforms.

[akator]

Agreed that it would be nice to have another platformer on the Vectrex. Disagreed that we need a Vectrex SMB game or clone. Nintendo has done quite enough providing Mario games for the last 25+ years on their own systems. If I want to play SMB or derivatives, there are already dozens of options that are massively easier and more affordable to acquire. I personally do not ever want to see Mario on my Vectrex. I don't even want to think about Mario or Nintendo when I look at or play my Vectrex. One of the reasons Vectrex rocks is that those time streams don't cross.

 

There are many excellent platformers that would be more appropriate to the Vectrex arcade lineage, library, and vector graphics. Space Panic / Apple Panic / Lode Runner is just one possibility. Within just that single group of games there are so many options to be derivative and classic while still getting updated and modern.

 

Even into the 90s many 3D game graphics were represented by wireframe or simple polygons. Some of these first and third person flying, driving, shooting games would shine on the Vectrex and be perfectly suited to the machine's abilities.

[jaybird3rd]

There are many excellent platformers that would be more appropriate to the Vectrex arcade lineage, library, and vector graphics. Space Panic / Apple Panic / Lode Runner is just one possibility.

Don't forget Major Havoc, which was a vector game in the arcade and thus would make for a more direct port to the Vectrex.

[AtariLeaf]

You couldn't be more wrong. I enjoy Princess Rescue immensely and I've been playing it for months. It's an excellent game that would be excellent even if SMB never existed and Chris deserves more respect for his work this. Chris's game makes other homebrews look like poo.

 

I really don't get the vitriol here. So i take it that by making Princess Rescue some excellent "original" Atari game was aborted?

 

I will say that we are almost on the same page. People have been asking for games that would suck on classic consoles like Smash Bros, TNMT and such. Each console has strengths and weaknesses. 2d platformers can work on the Vectrex and 2600 though.

 

Sorry I shouldn't have made it sound like it was a terrible idea, its not, and princess rescue is fantastic, I've been playing it a bit now and it's amazing and very impressive. I guess I'm just so tired of hearing about mario mario mario from Nintendo and every other game they make is another mario platformer I guess I'm tired of hearing about him.

Edited August 1, 2013 by AtariLeaf

[mkiker2089]

Understood to all. I've been defensive because to me Princess Rescue is awesome no matter what heritage it has. I'm not a Mario fan although I do love my NES for it's homebrew scene. And as much as I hate to admit it original ideas are welcome

 

So we need a platformer that is as good in a relative way but uses the Vectrex for it's strengths. Preferably a 2d side scroller and one with clear distinction in levels so we can have grass and sky in an overlay.

 

Given a choice now that I think on it I'd like a Symphony of the Night type game instead as it used better fighting mechanics. Do that gameplay, which stick figures perhaps. Ok, maybe not.

[sqoon]

Tac Scan, Battlezone, and Tempest are three that immediately come to mind for good Vectrex home port possibilities, but SMB? Even games that were not originally vector based lend themselves to the Vectrex' style. I could see Bubbles, Centipede, or even a Breakout port, but SMB just doesn't seem to be a good possibility, at least to me.