That Guy Who Lied About High Scores

[Keatah]

So you're saying 32.07 isn't the fastest time possible?

[LidLikesIntellivision]

So you're saying 32.07 isn't the fastest time possible?

I couldn't notice any desaccelaration. But I was holding fire button in the keyboard and, without depressing it, I had to press more 3 keys to switch collision detection.

I only guess my keyboard can't have 4 keys pressed at the same time. If it is true, I assume my hardware didn't give stella full time throttle (mili seconds? less? really don't know).

[+batari]

According to that thread I posted, moving up and down slows your plane, and you MUST move your plane to do a legitimate run. A TG ref simulated a run with minimal moving, down to the pixel, and got 32.50. So 32.07, although possible without moving, is not possible on a real game.

[Miss 2600]

If it was an unfinished game - how can the score stand? Surely the least to be expected is the score was achieved on the same version that was released and everyone else played....

 

What I mean is, he seems to be saying in his post that he got 32.5 at a live show and, rightly, believed it to be legitimate. Only after it was proven the score is impossible did he think that, perhaps, it was a different, earlier version of the game. Yes, the score should not count, but he wouldn't have known that at the time.

[Lauren Tyler]

Typos, really? One thing to remember about liars is that they stick to the lies even when faced with the truth.

I personally thought there was always something fishy about Todd Rogers's scores. Especially during the first HSC in 2004, where he seemed to get first place in EVERY game, not just Activision titles. And his scores were outrageously high.

 

But getting back to the point at hand, I do feel that Todd Rogers is attempting to stick with his story even though he's been caught.

Edited September 28, 2013 by LarcenTyler

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I cannot see any real evidence in this whole thread. Just people trying to discredit a person who has an extremely high reputation based on IMO pretty weak assumptions.

 

Shame on you!

[enthusi]

Oh, a witch hunt?

[mkiker2089]

In all fairness though the burdon of proof is on the person submitting the scores. The irregularities alone bring that into question. It may not be Tod's fault that others couldn't be bothered to adhere to a strict regime but the end result is the same. You then have the fact that there are many compund issues going on. The coffee stain story and the unfinished game story combine to bring things into question.

 

If he's really that good then with practice he can get these same scores again. Until he does there has to be an asterick by his name.

[Goochman]

In all fairness though the burdon of proof is on the person submitting the scores. The irregularities alone bring that into question. It may not be Tod's fault that others couldn't be bothered to adhere to a strict regime but the end result is the same. You then have the fact that there are many compund issues going on. The coffee stain story and the unfinished game story combine to bring things into question.

 

If he's really that good then with practice he can get these same scores again. Until he does there has to be an asterick by his name.

Honestly - do you think you could commit the time and have the same reflexes you had 30 years ago? Todd also was in a pretty serious car accident some time in the 90s, almost resulting in death.

 

I saw Todd personally play a few Activision titles back in 2001 and he was pretty damn good at them. He even helped me get a pretty good Dragster score.

 

Having said all that I really dont even understand this thread? Is Todd bothering anyone here? Is he banging his own drum in other forums bragging how super awesome he is? Just curious the purpose of calling out Todd here today for a guy who is pretty quiet these days living his own life.

[karokoenig]

Is Todd bothering anyone here?

 

If that were the important criterion, this thread wouldn't exist. But it isn't. I bet half of my collection that many athletes who used doping are actually really nice people, and don't bother other people all that much. And still, creating an unfair advantage over other athletes who don't use forbidden substances is something to frown at. It's a matter of honesty and sportsmanship, even in a "sport" like retro gaming.

 

In dubio pro reo. Of course. But if legitimate doubts exist, it's worth looking into the matter.

[Dauber]

Just some general comments...

 

- Saying a guy lied is pretty darn harsh. In the field of journalism, in fact, calling someone a liar (or, unrelated to the discussion here, a thief) is considered libel. I'm sure if there are inaccuracies in Rogers' scores, they're simply inaccuracies and not outright lies. (And this is coming from a guy who saw Chasing Ghosts and thought "What IS this thing?? He's a grown man, lives with his parents, and sleeps on the floor surrounded by tiny animals.")

 

- Yeah, Twin Galaxies isn't the end-all, be-all any more...in fact, at my favorite arcade (Underground Retrocade in West Dundee, which just reopened a couple of weeks ago!), the owner uses primarily aurcade.com for score tracking. But I see that in the post from Tod he refers to "employees" of Twin Galaxies...you mean people actually get paid to watch videos and record scores??? But still, from what I gather here, it looks like TG did make a bad judgment but fixed the process as a result of it and has learned from past mistakes. If you're using prior mistakes to judge how reliably an organization will operate in the future, then I fear for when one of your children brings home a bad grade on a test.

 

- But despite Twin Galaxies not being as credible as it once was, be careful with your criticism of it. Do you honestly want to be among the ranks of "Mr. Awesome"??

 

- Anyway, what do I care?? I don't really feel terribly in awe over VCS world records. I agree with the prior poster who says that VCS games tend to be easier than their arcade originals. All I can say is anybody with enough time can be at record-breaking level pretty quickly.

[Andromeda Stardust]

If a gamer chugs four cans of Red Bull before every world record scoring attempt, does that count as a "performance enhancement?" I believed Lance Armstrong was clean for the longest time, but karma finally caught up with him. At first I thought it was a "guilty until proven innocent" scenario rather than getting tangled deeper and deeper into a spider web of drugs, scandals, and lies. But the topic of high profile sports doping will be left for another discussion in another forum.

 

Yet there is a bigger issue with console gaming in general. Nevermind gray area stuff like using a Genesis pad on an Atari VCS. I'm talking console-verified-tool-assisted-speedruns. While many TAS movies require superhuman reflexes and involve repeatedly hitting buttons on exactly the right frame to fail collision detection and glitch through walls, and other shenanigans, that on their best days a human player might be able to pull off said glitch once out of dozens of tries, yet the speedrun essentially breaks the entire game. And now there are microcontroller powered devices that connect to an NES via the controller port and play back TAS movies with God-like precision on authentic 100% unmodified hardware.

 

Suppose a cheater uses an emulator to speedrun the entire game at 30Hz and uses save-states every time he or she screws up, yet does not partake in frame-by-frame tweaking or exploit humanly-impossible glitches. The Tool-assisted run is not submitted to any website and kept a secret. The cheater follows the TG submission rules to a tee, showing the console plugged into the TV set on video, plugging their "dummy" controller into the port, and then powers on the console, all the while they have the microcontroller stuffed inside the NES where nobody can see it. Then they sit with their backs to the camera and proceed to "play" the game. Assuming they have practiced their run, they will know exactly when to press each button so that the motion of their hands on the gamepad appears synced with the video: this would be akin to a singer cheating by lipsyncing on stage. It happens all the time. Then cheater submits the video footage to Twin Galaxies of them playing the NES and beating the world record. Twin Galaxies requests to inspect the cheater's NES system to verify that it has not been tampered with, and the cheater produces an NES identical to the one they used, or the original system with the modifications reversed. Cheater becomes an official Twin Galaxies' official record holder for game X.

Edited October 1, 2013 by stardust4ever

[+nanochess]

If a gamer chugs four cans of Red Bull before every world record scoring attempt, does that count as a "performance enhancement?" I believed Lance Armstrong was clean for the longest time, but karma finally caught up with him. At first I thought it was a "guilty until proven innocent" scenario rather than getting tangled deeper and deeper into a spider web of drugs, scandals, and lies. But the topic of high profile sports doping will be left for another discussion in another forum.

 

Yet there is a bigger issue with console gaming in general. Nevermind gray area stuff like using a Genesis pad on an Atari VCS. I'm talking console-verified-tool-assisted-speedruns. While many TAS movies require superhuman reflexes and involve repeatedly hitting buttons on exactly the right frame to fail collision detection and glitch through walls, and other shenanigans, that on their best days a human player might be able to pull off said glitch once out of dozens of tries, yet the speedrun essentially breaks the entire game. And now there are microcontroller powered devices that connect to an NES via the controller port and play back TAS movies with God-like precision on authentic 100% unmodified hardware.

 

Suppose a cheater uses an emulator to speedrun the entire game at 30Hz and uses save-states every time he or she screws up, yet does not partake in frame-by-frame tweaking or exploit humanly-impossible glitches. The Tool-assisted run is not submitted to any website and kept a secret. The cheater follows the TG submission rules to a tee, showing the console plugged into the TV set on video, plugging their "dummy" controller into the port, and then powers on the console, all the while they have the microcontroller stuffed inside the NES where nobody can see it. Then they sit with their backs to the camera and proceed to "play" the game. Assuming they have practiced their run, they will know exactly when to press each button so that the motion of their hands on the gamepad appears synced with the video: this would be akin to a singer cheating by lipsyncing on stage. It happens all the time. Then cheater submits the video footage to Twin Galaxies of them playing the NES and beating the world record. Twin Galaxies requests to inspect the cheater's NES system to verify that it has not been tampered with, and the cheater produces an NES identical to the one they used, or the original system with the modifications reversed. Cheater becomes an official Twin Galaxies' official record holder for game X.

 

Wow! I never thought of that. Something like that could be the subject for a very interesting book

[Dauber]

Good point, but then the only possible way to verify a record is to have a ref witness it in person, inspect the console inside and out, taking things apart, etc.

[+Random Terrain]

Good point, but then the only possible way to verify a record is to have a ref witness it in person, inspect the console inside and out, taking things apart, etc.

 

That's how all records should be done. You should have to go and play in front of refs and whatever crowd shows up to watch. You should have to play on a console provided by and inspected by the council. No honor system and no videos of you playing in your underwear at home.

 

 

 

 

- Saying a guy lied is pretty darn harsh. In the field of journalism, in fact, calling someone a liar (or, unrelated to the discussion here, a thief) is considered libel.

 

I never said that the guy lied or cheated, so I'm safe. Others who posted in this thread will probably go to prison, though.

[Tempest]

In the field of journalism, in fact, calling someone a liar (or, unrelated to the discussion here, a thief) is considered libel.

Unless they've been proven to be a liar that is.

 

After reading all of this I really can't say one way or the other honestly. I'd need to see more evidence

[Seethransom]

The only credible person in the field would be Captain Awesome...

Edited October 1, 2013 by Seethransom

[Stan]

In all fairness though the burdon of proof is on the person submitting the scores. The irregularities alone bring that into question. It may not be Tod's fault that others couldn't be bothered to adhere to a strict regime but the end result is the same. You then have the fact that there are many compund issues going on. The coffee stain story and the unfinished game story combine to bring things into question.

 

If he's really that good then with practice he can get these same scores again. Until he does there has to be an asterick by his name.

Yeah I mean, if he's THAT good, just do it again. Don't say it's all a one-shot deal covered in coffee. Any real player and redo their scores, easy. Like, when I finally broke 10K in Spider-Man, after that it was 20, then 30, then PLAIS.

[DoctorTom]

Bottom line -- given the variance most gamers demonstrate in skill/scores from game to game, it is extremely hard to believe that Todd could be the top player (particularly by such a wide margin) at essentially any and every VCS game he played.

[Goochman]

Yeah I mean, if he's THAT good, just do it again. Don't say it's all a one-shot deal covered in coffee. Any real player and redo their scores, easy. Like, when I finally broke 10K in Spider-Man, after that it was 20, then 30, then PLAIS.

I doubt any of us are as good at video games as we were 30 years ago. Spiderman on the 2600 is pretty easy to master and Im sure I could do 20k+ again. I got 10M+ on the Atari 800 version of Defender 10 years ago, I dont think I could get over 1M today due to the time and effort required just for that 1 game.

[LidLikesIntellivision]

Since I'm 34 I can smash all my 30 years ago scores!

 

----

Now regarding high scores legitimacy, I think we always have to give the benefit of doubt to the players. It's not good to call cheater anyone without a clear evidence.

 

On the other hand, even respecting people's honour, I don't see anything wrong when we have doubts about some scores, leaving people's honour intact.

It is very possible to have not legit scores from a total honest player.

I just want to be free to discuss and point some scores.

 

Todd's Sub-scan score -1,012,000 - doesn't seem legit to me. It's rather a 112,000 with one zero in the wrong place!

I don't want to be disrespectful with Todd in any way. But I feel free, as anyone imo should feel, to point some scores, ask and try to understand what's behind it.

A genius player? A glitch the player didnt note? Typo? Different game version? Or simply a cheater?

 

Last option - a cheater - is also a viable explanation and can be asked/investigated.

You only need to separate your doubts and following actions -asking publicly, investigating - from your judgement.

That's what I always try to do. I consider everyone inocent but I try to know the truth behind things I suspect.

Making it clear and don't call anyone a cheater without strong evidence doesn't in any form mean you are blind, naïve or simply an idiot who believes in everything.

[Seethransom]

Having said all that I really dont even understand this thread? Is Todd bothering anyone here? Is he banging his own drum in other forums bragging how super awesome he is? Just curious the purpose of calling out Todd here today for a guy who is pretty quiet these days living his own life.

People have opinions, or comments that only people here would understand. We all join at different times. I can't talk about this in my afk, my friends don't care. When you do something big (real, or BS), people will talk for years. The ambiguousness leads people to speculation. His lifestyle, and routine may be profiled, but the speculation would be just that. Best to leave that out, you are right.

Steve Sanders knew people would talk about him for years, he did the right thing. People will talk about that for a long time (good, and bad). At a life defining moment, he cut the act, and took his licks. He Seems to walk the walk, being a lawyer, and his relationship to his Church. I respect him for it.

[Dauber]

To tell you the truth, when I saw the title of this thread, I thought Steve Sanders was going to be the guy in question, since he admitted he lied about his Donkey Kong score.

[Cynicaster]

I doubt any of us are as good at video games as we were 30 years ago. Spiderman on the 2600 is pretty easy to master and Im sure I could do 20k+ again. I got 10M+ on the Atari 800 version of Defender 10 years ago, I dont think I could get over 1M today due to the time and effort required just for that 1 game.

Seeing this post, I would just like to share an anecdote.

 

I first beat Mike Tyson on NES Punch Out back in the spring of 1988. After that, I didn’t play much more of the game during the NES era, because I was busy playing other games that I hadn’t completed yet. Eventually I moved on to Genesis, then dropped out of console gaming altogether in my later teens.

 

As an adult, through the years I have played MTPO here and there in emulation, but the game doesn’t emulate particularly well, so I’d always end up quitting after a few minutes.

 

About 6 months ago I was wasting time on eBay and decided to pick up a copy of the game for my very small NES collection (which consists almost exclusively of old favorites), just to have it. When the game showed up in the mail, I promised myself I would eventually work on the game and beat Tyson again, but at the same time, I also realized there was a good chance I’d never get around to it.

 

This past weekend on a whim I finally decided to fire up the NES and play some Punch Out. I went into it thinking “surely, these old hands can’t move like they did when I was 11, this is going to be an exercise in frustration”.

 

But, that night, 25 years after my initial victory and with little to no practice in between, I beat every opponent in the game, including Mike Tyson. It took me just 4 attempts to get a victory against Tyson by decision, with a TKO in the 5th attempt. All this with 2 or 3 scotches under my belt—a hindrance I’m quite sure was not in play back when I was 11.

 

I know this story is only tangentially related to the discussion, and I know that Punch Out isn’t exactly the hardest game ever made, but I thought it was interesting. Maybe us old guys shouldn’t be so quick to ascribe “salad days” status to the 80’s; maybe as players we’re just as good or better today... at least, when we want to be.

[mkiker2089]

Actually Tyson is VERY hard to beat. He was designed that way.

 

People are also mistaking aging physically with mentally. With proper stimulation the brain can get stronger as we age. I am indeed much better at games now than I have ever been.