Bounty Bob Construction Set?

[ballyalley]

I know that there was never an official "Bounty Bob Strikes Back" Construction Set, but did anyone ever make one anyway? Has anyone just hacked the game and added or replaced the levels. Or maybe even just changed them up a bit?

 

Adam

[Rybags]

Unknown - I would guess that there's probably a mix of flexible definitions and hard-coding for the levels of both BBSB and Miner 2049er.

 

Some levels have transporters or not, same deal with elevators, probably all levels rely on DLIs at different points that do PMG splits.

 

It would be an interesting game to see reverse-engineered/commented, and that would be a logical early process before making a construction set although it could be done without fully disecting the games.

 

Just how much the game relies on hard-coded stuff might be the showstopper. Although bottom line is that the game mechanics are fairly simple and could be replicated without too much effort.

 

Quickly looking - both games use Mode E bitmap rather than char mode. Likely there is some sort of map behind that which the game uses to keep track of the floor state.

 

Level generation, probably a mix of mapping and some sort of generation instructions. I would think likely that the whole affair relies on sets of pointers and the like which would make changing things tricky.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Rybags

[Wrathchild]

Two related threads here.Steve/Classic's bbfix3 version would be a good bet to do the reverse-engineering from to understand how the levels cold be edited.

 

http://www.atarimax.com/flashcart/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=904

 

http://www.atarimax.com/flashcart/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=290

[Mclaneinc]

I think I can be pretty certain that there was never a construction set official or not, had one been done at the time or soon after it would have been a surefire winner with folks and been on every mulitboot out there. Also since 'the days' I'm sure it would have turned up or at least been talked about in certain circles.

 

However its a wonderful idea, Bill might be willing to give the details if he remembers or has the source code still so to give details of how the levels were plotted.

[+therealbountybob]

Even if a few bits of platform could be tweaked here and there it would be fun, same for Donkey Kong

[Rybags]

A starting point would be to reverse-engineer Miner '49er. I would imagine the techniques used for level generation are similar (both use Mode E).

 

Construction set - chances are they had some sort of utility to aid development, most likely something primitive and not user-friendly.

[ballyalley]

Two related threads here.Steve/Classic's bbfix3 version would be a good bet to do the reverse-engineering from to understand how the levels cold be edited.

 

http://www.atarimax.com/flashcart/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=904

 

http://www.atarimax.com/flashcart/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=290

 

Thanks for linking to those threads. I recall that when I tried to run this game on my 130XE Steve sent me a version of BBSB in an email so that I could run it on my AtariMax 8Mb Flashcart. Like the originator or that thread, I too had also tried many other versions without success (although, mine was a known problem with the 130XE's expansion RAM).

 

It doesn't look like reverse engineering the game really went anyplace in those threads. Well, it DID, but only so far as to patch the game so that it worked on the XEGS. I was really surprised to hear that it didn't already work on the system-- as it doesn't even have expanded RAM.

 

When the BBSB emulator was written Bill wrote this on his Big Five Software page:

There were a lot of details I had to take care of to make sure the output was as faithful to the original Atari 800 screen. I used a great many of the Atari's features back then when I wrote these games. And all of it came back to haunt me when I wrote this emulator because I had to replicate every Atari feature I used! Even some of the copy protection stumped me for awhile. Back in the 80's I was coding things cryptically to attempt to confuse anyone disassembling the program. It's pretty funny that I turned out to be one of those people!

 

 

I also think that it's amusing that one of the postings in the first thread also mentioned that they couldn't get past level one. I also had the same problem until just a few years ago when I, you know, stooped so low as to read the manual. Without knowing about the incredibly detailed amounts of control that you have over Bob, it's pretty-much impossible to pass just the very beginning of BBSB. This advanced jump technique still throws me when I go back to Miner's 2049'er and it isn't available. It takes me a little bit of time to adjust to NOT being able to control Bob with such great precision.

 

Adam

[ballyalley]

A starting point would be to reverse-engineer Miner '49er. I would imagine the techniques used for level generation are similar (both use Mode E).

 

Miner is so much different than its sequel. There is SO much extra stuff that isn't in the first game. Why not just start with BBSB? I ask this out of ignorance, as I know 6502 in only the most trivial sense-- and I've never done anything more than change the graphics in a 2600 game (and that was with the help of an editor).

 

This reminds me of something that I read about Jumpman once. I think that I read it on the now defunct Jumpman Lounge website-- which is gone, but at least it's archived. Each level of Jumpman was so different than the others that it was almost a different game. At least that's how I remember the quote now. It was at least something to that affect.

 

Adam

[ballyalley]

Even if a few bits of platform could be tweaked here and there it would be fun, same for Donkey Kong

 

I agree, even the ability to make the game a little different would be nice to see. Then again, that option is available in the Options screen where the difficulty level can be set to four levels of difficulty. From "Easy" to "C'mon." Just setting the difficulty to medium is enough for me. I always play on the default level, which is "Easy." That's perfect for me.

 

Just for kicks I interrupted this posting, turned around, turned on my 130XE, scooted over my chair a bit, and then played BBSB on the Medium difficulty setting. I got to level 6, the Grain Elevator. This isn't too bad for me! The farthest I've gotten into the game is level seven or either using four lives (which is boosting my lives by one of the Options screen-- Not sure if that's considered "cheating?"). Of course, using the cheats built into the game I've gotten to see levels 1-13. The reason I haven't seen them all is that if I can't beat a level with one guy then I don't progress past that level. At this rate, in twenty-five years I may see all 25 of the levels!

 

While I don't have the ability to disassemble the game, I certainly have the ability to use any construction set that might be created. In fact, if someone creates such a construction set then I pledge to create, say, ten new levels. I'll bet that others would gladly do the same. However, a construction along the lines of Lode Runner of Mr. Robot and His Robot Factory seems a bit out of the question given some of what has already been said thus far in some follow-up postings.

 

Even a level changer of SOME sort would be most welcome. If no one take it that far (and who can blame them-- it'll be quite a time investment), then even "just" a dissassembled version of the game with some comments would be most welcomed by the community. Yes, I understand that THAT in itself would be incredibly hard.

 

BBSB is considered to be, by many videogame enthusiasts, to be among the very best games on the Atari 8-Bit systems.. and on other systems beyond. And who can blame them?

 

Adam

[Bill Loguidice]

I never got the appeal myself even though I lived through the hype from Electronic Games magazine. I always found it a rather overly difficult (fiddly controls), mediocre platformer, though I've played much more of the original than the sequel. With that said, given the talent of some of the top homebrewers out there, I could see them having little issue in recreating the game from scratch complete with level editor. It's all in the motivation, of course.

[ballyalley]

I never got the appeal myself even though I lived through the hype from Electronic Games magazine. I always found it a rather overly difficult (fiddly controls), mediocre platformer, though I've played much more of the original than the sequel.

Part of the appeal of Bounty Bob is just getting good at it. It really is a rush finishing a level that has very tricky jumps or some pattern that you must figure out if you're going to finish it without losing a life. If you can't get good at the jumps then the game would most certainly be a turn off. Luckily, at least, when you die on a level you don't start the level over needing to tread over all the ground that you already walked over. However, if you play on "Hard" or "C'Mon" difficulty then, like in Miner 2049'er, you DO have to go over all the ground from scratch again. On levels with particularly complex jumps this can be a real letdown. Then again, I don't play at that difficulty level. For me, it's just a plus that you can change the difficulty... but I wouldn't miss it if it was gone. I just have tried it because it's there. Then again, the option to let players choose where they begin is actually quite nice and I'm sure that some people WOULD miss playing on a higher difficulty.

 

I must admit that I probably never would have gotten into Bounty Bob if I eventually hadn't gotten good enough at Miner 2049'er on the Atari to be able to play through the first ten levels twice over and then usually die about halfway through the third "flip." Miner 2049'er does get harder (the baddies get MUCH faster) as you "flip" the levels (not the score-- that would be something!). It eventually just got too fast for me for me to play anymore. I wanted something more difficult... and I certainly did find it in the game's sequel! Sadly, I played Miner just a few days ago and I only got to something like level 6. What a letdown! I'd forgotten the patterns that I was using to play some of the levels. In that game, just like Bounty Bob, I heavily rely on patterns. Unless I miss a jump, then I complete the levels the same way each time. Writing that here it sounds like it should be boring. Why would I even want to do that? For the same reason that some people aspire to play every level of Pac-Man again and again hoping to one day beat it.

 

Just like the first game, in BBSB!, if you input a code, then you can start off on any level that you like. Also, you can even place Bob anywhere on the screen that you like (I think that's called "float"). Of course, this was only in the game for playtesting purposes and wasn't generally available to anyone outside the company when the game was played by most people. In fact, I've often wondered when the cheats became available in a magazine for the first time. Did Electronic Games, ANALOG or Antic, or some other early early-to-mid-eighties game or computer magazine publish these cheats?

 

given the talent of some of the top homebrewers out there, I could see them having little issue in recreating the game from scratch complete with level editor. It's all in the motivation, of course.

I have no doubt that the game could be recreated from scratch. However there is something special about the Atari 8-Bit version of the game. It has control that you just can't find in other ports of the game. I've played the C64 version and tried the Spectrum version as well. The C64 version is similar... but the precise jump control is just not quite right for me. I don't feel like I have absolute authority over the control. The port isn't bad. Not at all. (I actually play the C64 versions of Miner and BBSB! in the VICE emulator from time to time just as a nice distraction). Perhaps I just need to play BBSB! on the C64 more to get the right feel for it. The Spectrum version is not bad either (though the control is every further away from the Atari version of the game). I've not tried this on the 5200... but I'd be afraid to play it without some sort of 2600 adapter. I guess it's the same otherwise (anybody know)?

 

What I'm getting at is that Bounty Bob Strikes Back! is a one of a kind game. It can be ported. It can be copied. But it can't be replicated. Having grown up on the C64 I always find it strange that I prefer the Atari version of the game. The graphics on the Atari are usually not as strong and the sound usually can't quite compete with the C64. (Please, don't throw objects at me-- I LOVE the Atari. This is not troll bait.) The control isn't always better on Atari games either... but when it is, such as in BBSB!, then it is enough to persuade me that recreating the game just wouldn't work. For comparison try some of the Lode Runner or Jumpman tributes that have appeared over the years. Some of them are quite fun... but none of them manages to capture the essence of the game of Jumpman as played on the C64 or Atari versions of the game.

 

If someone, or a group of people, came forward and wrote a BBSB! game from scratch with a level editor I would certainly play it. I would very likely enjoy it very much. However, I would still long for a level editor for the good 'ol Atari system. There's just something about Bounty Bob Strikes Back! on the Atari system that is magic.

 

Adam