Vic-20 or Dragon64 for gaming?

[John Mayor]

Back in the day I only used both of these for a brief time due to work having these device tried out for processing and etc.

 

although primitive both ahve very nice gaming communities. Being able to only get one due to horrible seller prices (for now) which is better for gaming?

 

Drgaon 64:

 

Vic-20:

[+Gemintronic]

Seeing as the Dragon is not fully compatible with all games (and the Vic 20 has a multi-cart) I'd go with the Vic.

[akator]

VIC-20 gets my vote as well.

[John Mayor]

 

Seeing as the Dragon is not fully compatible with all games (and the Vic 20 has a multi-cart) I'd go with the Vic.

 

All games from what? the 32?

[+Gemintronic]

Not sure. That's what prevented me from getting a Dragon in the past. here's a related link about the differences.

http://www.onastick.clara.net/cococnv.htm

[TMR]

Yeah, i'd go for the VIC especially if using a Multicart or RAM expanded for things like Wunda Walter or Jetpac.

[John Mayor]

I am still not understand here. Are you saying you did not by the 64 because it was not compatible with the 32?

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

   

All games from what? the 32?

 

All games from the TRS-80 Color Computer which the Dragon is just an alternate version of.

 

I would go for the VIC IF you can definitely get the multicart, not the easiest to get a hold of, the waiting list is long and the guy that makes these takes forever.

Edited January 24, 2014 by OldSchoolRetroGamer

[TMR]

I am still not understand here. Are you saying you did not by the 64 because it was not compatible with the 32?

He's saying that CoCo 2 games won't all work; the Dragon 32 and 64 are both based on that machine but with modifications. As far as i'm aware, most Dragon 32 games will run on a Dragon 64 but there aren't many of 'em to start with without the CoCo 2 library.

Edited January 24, 2014 by TMR

[John Mayor]

He's saying that CoCo 2 games won't all work; the Dragon 32 and 64 are both based on that machine but with modifications. As far as i'm aware, most Dragon 32 games will run on a Dragon 64 but there aren't many of 'em to start with without the CoCo 2 library.

Got ya, that's unfortunate. I though the 64 was fully compatible and only the 32 had issues.

[Osgeld]

no, that's what keeps me from getting one of the tano units you can still buy brand new CIB for like 45 bucks + shipping, think it comes out to around 75 in the USA, its not fully coco compatible, though mostly compatible, and for such an oddity do you want to go hacking inside of it?

 

I vote for vic anyway, the tandy's were more serious computers, and just about any vic is going to come with a shoebox of games, and maybe a used twice word processor lol

[yell0w_lantern]

I have both a Tano Dragon 64 and a VIC-20 currently.

 

You can get carts for either but Dragon carts are not too common around here. As mentioned, there is a VIC multi-cart. I haven't really looked at tapes but I think Dragon can use regular tape players unlike the VIC so advantage to Dragon there. In terms of disks, you can get a uIEC for the VIC for about 60 dollars but you need some kind of memory expansion. The Dragon disk controller is rather rare but I hear you can convert a CoCo disk controller over AND there is a gentleman in Spain producing new ones (I think I payed 45 Euros plus shipping). Unfortunately, you also need a disk drive or a floppy emulator (70 to 90 Euros from Lotharek). Joysticks are probably easier to find at a good price for the VIC than the Dragon. Either one can do composite out; VIC ones are readily available from Amigakit. Dragon you might find one on ebay or you can make one or you can make a converter for the C64/VIC video cable. As far as the games themselves, I find it hard to get into the Dragon games because I have 2 CoCo's that I can set up more easily so I haven't really explored the Dragon library. My VIC usually takes a backseat to my C64. I probably play the VIC-20 as much as my TI-99/4A and my Atari 8-bits. The CoCos come next then my Apple ][e then my Dragon 64 and C+4 then my Amiga 1200.

 

Price-wise you might come out a bit ahead on VIC if you are aiming at cartridge or disk-based gaming.

 

I would also add that the Dragon does not feel like a machine that was designed for much gaming. It is much more like a "serious" computer that, by the way, can also run games. Everything from the sound and colors to the joysticks is reminiscent of Apple II and early PC with the one significant exception of the cartridge port but that also double as the port for the disk controller.

 

So, I think generally the VIC-20 is the better choice for gaming.

Edited January 24, 2014 by yell0w_lantern

[desiv]

There is actually more than 1 multicart for the Vic-20.

The MegaCart, which is awesome and spendy and has a huge waiting list.

Lot's of great features and THE cart to have.

But it's not the only option.

I got one of these.

http://www.gamingenterprisesinc.com/vic20/

Less expensive, much less waiting time, and a fun selection of 32 games.

Doesn't compare the the MegaCart for games/features, but has it's advantages.

 

desiv

Here's a REALLY BAD picture of my multicart just after I got it. I put it in the case from a dead cart I had. I have since removed the stickers. I cut a rectangle to expose the DIP switches to select which game.

http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af261/villaesc/misc/viccart_zps820c8ccf.jpg

Edited January 24, 2014 by desiv

[carlsson]

Actually I think there are a half dozen solutions that can act like a multicart on the VIC, besides the already mentioned ones there used to be the Behr Bonz (out of production IIRC) and the Final Expansion series, which tend to be sold as DIY kits. Those have Flash memory, RAM expansion, SD slot and should be possible to load up with your own selection of games for quick start. Then there are the SD2IEC family of devices, while not being multicarts will allow you to load files from SD cards. Combined with a 32K memory expansion, or even a fully switchable 16K expansion (some of them can be modified if you're a guy with a soldering iron), most bases will be covered although it will take a bit of manual labour everytime you want to load games. The reason for switchable is so the expansion can cover all memory blocks including those meant for autostarting cartridges, the VIC divides its memory map into eight blocks of 8K of which some are pin select accessible from the cartridge port.

 

Frankly I have just about zero experience of Dragon or CoCo gaming. I believe the 6845 (or is it a 6847 solution?) can output a bit more high resolution graphics than the VIC chip, but in other terms of colour resolution, use of custom graphics, emulating software sprites, scrolling etc I don't know exactly how they compare. Supposedly the 6809 in the Dragon will be computationally superior to the 6502 in the VIC-20, but again it would depend on the type of games and very few of the early ones tend to stress the CPU to the max anyway. Although the VIC has rather detuned sound, at least it has three square waves plus noise and a common volume register, I seem to recall that at least within BASIC you can only access one sound channel on the Dragon, perhaps more from machine code so audio might depend on which programming language the games you'll play were written in. One thing that works for the VIC-20 is that it uses Atari compatible joysticks which gives you a wide range of controllers to choose from, while I understand the Dragon and CoCo have their own joysticks, at best requiring some kind of adapter if at all possible to use Atari style joysticks?

[JamesD]

...

Frankly I have just about zero experience of Dragon or CoCo gaming. I believe the 6845 (or is it a 6847 solution?) can output a bit more high resolution graphics than the VIC chip, but in other terms of colour resolution, use of custom graphics, emulating software sprites, scrolling etc I don't know exactly how they compare. Supposedly the 6809 in the Dragon will be computationally superior to the 6502 in the VIC-20, but again it would depend on the type of games and very few of the early ones tend to stress the CPU to the max anyway. Although the VIC has rather detuned sound, at least it has three square waves plus noise and a common volume register, I seem to recall that at least within BASIC you can only access one sound channel on the Dragon, perhaps more from machine code so audio might depend on which programming language the games you'll play were written in. One thing that works for the VIC-20 is that it uses Atari compatible joysticks which gives you a wide range of controllers to choose from, while I understand the Dragon and CoCo have their own joysticks, at best requiring some kind of adapter if at all possible to use Atari style joysticks?

It's a 6847. The color palette choices were questionable for hi-res 4 color bitmapped modes and you only had two palette selections to chose from.

In the US, you could use NTSC color artifacting to get something a little more suited to most games but that just ends up black and white on PAL. This is probably the biggest reason the CoCo had a reasonable amount of success in the USA.

 

The CoCo can do 4 part harmony with machine code or with a patch for BASIC you could replace the standard sine wave with custom waves that could be used from BASIC. Everything else stopped when you play music like this so you don't get a lot of in game sound or music with CoCo 1/2 games. The CoCo 3 added a programmable timer interrupt that could be used to drive the DAC sound so it's games have better sound and in game music. There is also the Speech and Sound Pack that was available for the CoCo that many later CoCo 1/2 games used for music and sound effects. It has it's own microcontroller to drive the AY sound and speech synth chips. It can play music or sound sequences loaded from it's internal buffers or can directly accept sound data for the AY chip.

 

A recent development (as in the last week) has been that someone has a 1 bit music player running off of the CoCo's horizontal sync interrupt so in game music was always possible, it's just that nobody did it. This is an example of playback with animation posted in the last few days, not the best music or animation but it's just proof of concept he threw together:

The latest version (as of this morning) leaves about 40% of the CPU time free for animation.

Edited January 24, 2014 by JamesD

[AtariLeaf]

I got one of these.

http://www.gamingenterprisesinc.com/vic20/

Less expensive, much less waiting time, and a fun selection of 32 games.

Doesn't compare the the MegaCart for games/features, but has it's advantages.

 

desiv

Here's a REALLY BAD picture of my multicart just after I got it. I put it in the case from a dead cart I had. I have since removed the stickers. I cut a rectangle to expose the DIP switches to select which game.

http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af261/villaesc/misc/viccart_zps820c8ccf.jpg

 

I had one of those too but sold it. It was given to me by Robert Hurst who programmed some awesome Vic-20 homebrews. I didn't want to get rid of my Vic but it was dying and I was purging unwanted systems or systems like the Vic that weren't working. Would love to get another as I've found some interesting rarer games lately to play.

 

Here are some of his games BTW, really well done. Berzerk mmx has a voice version that i didn't have when i made this

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-1ivobMp7s

[Mr SQL]

It's a 6847. The color palette choices were questionable for hi-res 4 color bitmapped modes and you only had two palette selections to chose from.

In the US, you could use NTSC color artifacting to get something a little more suited to most games but that just ends up black and white on PAL. This is probably the biggest reason the CoCo had a reasonable amount of success in the USA.

 

The CoCo can do 4 part harmony with machine code or with a patch for BASIC you could replace the standard sine wave with custom waves that could be used from BASIC. Everything else stopped when you play music like this so you don't get a lot of in game sound or music with CoCo 1/2 games. The CoCo 3 added a programmable timer interrupt that could be used to drive the DAC sound so it's games have better sound and in game music. There is also the Speech and Sound Pack that was available for the CoCo that many later CoCo 1/2 games used for music and sound effects. It has it's own microcontroller to drive the AY sound and speech synth chips. It can play music or sound sequences loaded from it's internal buffers or can directly accept sound data for the AY chip.

 

A recent development (as in the last week) has been that someone has a 1 bit music player running off of the CoCo's horizontal sync interrupt so in game music was always possible, it's just that nobody did it. This is an example of playback with animation posted in the last few days, not the best music or animation but it's just proof of concept he threw together:

The latest version (as of this morning) leaves about 40% of the CPU time free for animation.

James,

I think Grabber used this technique:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re8yJ9cVtDY

 

JM,

Lot of awesome CoCo/Dragon games including the cart ROM's you can just load off tape or your ipod; this is the only way I can play games on my CoCo today as all of my legacy drives have deteriorated

 

The UIECsd mentioned earlier is a great flashcart/virtual disc drive for the VIC, and it works on the 64 too

 

I think the VIC is a colourful fun machine with more fun games but there are some real gems on the CoCo/Dragon that are unbelievably good (TimeBandit and Speed Racer from Michtron for example) because they leverage the raw processing power of the 16-Bit Motorola chip:

 

There are no accelerator chips for sprites or sound hardware so the processor must do everything; Apple doesn't compare because the 6502 doesn't have the power to do things in software that the 6809 can.

[am1933]

This depends on what you want, do you want to go down the purist route or add on modern updates?

 

For sheer availability-the VIC wins due to the size of the back catalogue, the Dragon machines have cartridge compatibility with the CoCo but only limited tape compatibility.

 

Personally-I would pick the Dragon 64 everytime but that is just because I would always side with the more obscure systems.

[Serious]

I love my VIC-20 for gaming. The sounds are great, the graphics have a similar blocky charm to them as the 2600, and there are some really great games for it: Attack of the Mutant Camels, Bandits, Crossfire, and Lazer Zone to name a few. Compatibility with Atari joysticks is a plus, and the ability to load disk images via sdcard (with the current accessories available for it) is a real plus, as well.

 

I am not familiar with the Dragon line of computers, but the later models of the CoCo have always interested me, but I've yet to try one.

 

 

[John Mayor]

 

 

I had one of those too but sold it. It was given to me by Robert Hurst who programmed some awesome Vic-20 homebrews. I didn't want to get rid of my Vic but it was dying and I was purging unwanted systems or systems like the Vic that weren't working. Would love to get another as I've found some interesting rarer games lately to play.

 

Here are some of his games BTW, really well done. Berzerk mmx has a voice version that i didn't have when i made this

 

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-1ivobMp7s[/media]

I will admit the Vic-20 is looking like more of a better option if there is a homebrew scene.

[yell0w_lantern]

Apple doesn't compare because the 6502 doesn't have the power to do things in software that the 6809 can.

 

 

Oh, I'm sure it can. I just mean that, for me, the gaming experience is very similar to that on the Apple ][e - especially the sound.

I also find Atari 8 bit and Commodore 64 to be nearly identical in terms of gaming experience.

[Aquaman]

 

I will admit the Vic-20 is looking like more of a better option if there is a homebrew scene.

Sure there is a good homebrew scene, for example look at the Dutch commodore club news site, which also brings news about any new game for the VIC-20: http://commodore.hcc.nl/nieuwsblog/laatste-nieuws

[AtariLeaf]

 

I will admit the Vic-20 is looking like more of a better option if there is a homebrew scene.

 

For sure, the coco doesn't have a very active homebrew gaming scene. There are a couple little games floating around that get made now and then but the demographic for the Dragon/Coco is almost octogenarian. They don't seem to play a lot of games in that group because anytime I post anything game related it usually get's ignored. Not really sure what those guys actually "do" with their coco's. Just play with NitrOS9 and tinker I guess.

[JamesD]

 

For sure, the coco doesn't have a very active homebrew gaming scene. There are a couple little games floating around that get made now and then but the demographic for the Dragon/Coco is almost octogenarian. They don't seem to play a lot of games in that group because anytime I post anything game related it usually get's ignored. Not really sure what those guys actually "do" with their coco's. Just play with NitrOS9 and tinker I guess.

The CoCo mailing list is pretty much dominated by a small group and they don't seem to receive anything new from outside that group very well.

[AtariLeaf]

The CoCo mailing list is pretty much dominated by a small group and they don't seem to receive anything new from outside that group very well.

 

Definitely gotten the feeling that, since I'm primarily a coco gamer (both in the 80's and today) that I'm an outsider to the group. Some are nice - Allen Huffman, the Cloud 9 trio, John Linville, a few others.