Vic-20 or Dragon64 for gaming?

[The Usotsuki]

 

For sure, the coco doesn't have a very active homebrew gaming scene. There are a couple little games floating around that get made now and then but the demographic for the Dragon/Coco is almost octogenarian. They don't seem to play a lot of games in that group because anytime I post anything game related it usually get's ignored. Not really sure what those guys actually "do" with their coco's. Just play with NitrOS9 and tinker I guess.

Sounds just like the Apple ][ community.

[English Invader]

I've been a VIC-20 user for the best part of five years. It was the first retro system I bought and Denial was the first retro forum I joined. There are plenty of reasons to choose the VIC:

 

- hardware is good quality and built to last and the VIC is a lot more home user friendly than most systems from the late 70s/early 80s

- VIC software/accessories/peripherals are a lot more available on eBay than most systems from that era

- the software has made an almost seamless transition into digital media; a Mega-Cart and an SD2IEC will give you access to all cart games, a large chunk of the tape library and homebrew

- standard 9-pin joystick port means you have a lot more choice over the joystick you use

- AV and RGB scart output means great picture quality and no fiddling with the RF

- Denial is one of the best forums around with plenty of creative energy and technical expertise

[+cvga]

 

I had one of those too but sold it. It was given to me by Robert Hurst who programmed some awesome Vic-20 homebrews. I didn't want to get rid of my Vic but it was dying and I was purging unwanted systems or systems like the Vic that weren't working. Would love to get another as I've found some interesting rarer games lately to play.

 

Here are some of his games BTW, really well done. Berzerk mmx has a voice version that i didn't have when i made this

 

 

Wow, those games are really impressive. I enjoyed the video a great deal also. Well produced and informative. I'll definitely be watching more of your stuff.

[ApolloBoy]

hardware is good quality and built to last

Not sure if I'd say that considering the VIC is as cheaply built as the C64.

 

VIC software/accessories/peripherals are a lot more available on eBay than most systems from that era

Of course, it also helps that a lot of C64/128 accessories are backwards compatible with the VIC so you really do have a gigantic selection of peripherals.

 

the software has made an almost seamless transition into digital media; a Mega-Cart and an SD2IEC will give you access to all cart games, a large chunk of the tape library and homebrew

The Mega-Cart is an absolutely wonderful thing, I wound up selling all my VIC carts after getting one and I haven't looked back. It also helps that the VIC has a death grip on carts so having to constantly swap out carts when you want to play a different game is a PITA.

 

AV and RGB scart output means great picture quality and no fiddling with the RF

The VIC doesn't output RGB in any way, just composite video and nothing else. You can easily mod it for S-video though, and it blows composite out of the water in terms of picture quality.

[Phredreeke]

Dragon 64 advantages:

 

-6809 is generally considered a more powerful CPU.

-More RAM.

-Higher maximum resolution in monochrome and character modes.

-Cassette port uses standard analogue audio.

-Joystick port allows for analogue joysticks.

 

Dragon 64 disadvantages:

 

-Garish colour choices in multicolour graphics modes.

-Characters can not be redefined in character modes.

-Requires an adapter to use DE-9 joysticks

-Sound generation is entirely CPU driven.

 

VIC-20 advantages:

 

-6502 was a more popular CPU, and is hence more well documented.

-More colours available. Each character can display one of 8 colours, along with the background colour chosen from a palette of 16. In multicolour mode an additional 2 colours are available at expense of resolution. Multicolour can be set on a per-tile basis.

-The location of character tiles can be redefined, from either ROM or RAM.

-Standard DE-9 joystick connector.

-Cross-compatible with C64 cassette drives.

 

VIC-20 disadvantages

 

-Even with RAM expansions, the largest amount of available memory without bankswitching schemes is slightly less than 32 kb.

-No native bitmap mode.

-Cassette drive connects using a proprietary digital interface.

-Lower maximum resolution.

[RobertB]

Phredreeke wrote:

 

> -No native bitmap mode.

 

Well, there is a type of native bitmap on the VIC-20. See

 

http://sleepingelephant.com/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5485&hilit=pixel+bitmap

 

Truly,

Robert Bernardo

Fresno Commodore User Group

http://videocam.net.au/fcug

[carlsson]

Yes, a simulated bitmap mode using an entire character set, up to 256 characters = 4K RAM. Fortunately the unexpanded VIC-20 has 5K "CPU RAM" plus 1K VIC colour nybbles (that can be accessed by the CPU too, but each nybble only holds a value 0-15) so if you put your program in expanded memory you can get a bitmap about as large as the text screen, putting the screen memory (256 bytes using the 8x16 mode) within the lower 1K. The figure 3.5K by the way comes from 5K - 1K lower RAM - 0.5K screen memory that normally sits right after or right before the BASIC memory.

 

Now, I didn't understand the original poster as he would put a lot of effort in developing new games for whichever computer he rounded off his collection with, rather how the current library looks. Of course techincal specs are important anyway, as the more possibilities and documentation, more possible homebrews may come.

 

I can't recall if the compatibility between the Dragon line and the CoCo's was resolved. Otherwise it sounds like a good CoCo 2 or so might be a better bet than a Dragon 64, and obviously the CoCo play in a different league than the VIC anyway, more like you would match it to the C64.

 

In another thread, John Mayor rised the question whether to get an Aquarius or an ADAM, also to round out the collection as I understand. Perhaps the best advice would be given if the current situation was described. A home computer collection that exclusively consists of a VIC-20, a Dragon 64 (not CoCo!), an Aquarius and an ADAM would be a bit obscure, perhaps even excentric but also limit the number of games to play. If it also was known that a C64, an Atari 800XL, a TI-99/4A, an Apple ][e, perhaps a Timex Sinclair 2068 and an imported MSX computer from Japan already were part of the collection, the rounding choices would be easier to put in perspective.

[Mika73]

So there is 3 multicarts for Vic20. I didn't know dip switch model.

[JamesD]

I think one of the biggest reasons to go with the VIC20 is that it has the same drive interface as the C64, Plus/4 and C128.
If you buy an SD interface for one of those you are set for the VIC20 as well.
On the other hand, a lot of games were ported from the VIC20 to the C64 so you wouldn't have as many unique titles.

If you are looking at Dragon/CoCo, NTSC machines can do color artifacting and disk drives are more common for the CoCo.
As a kid I probably would have liked the Tano Dragon more than my CoCo because it came with a better keyboard and I could write larger BASIC programs.
But I eventually used it to write college term papers and I'm not sure if VIP Writer (what I used) was available for the Dragon yet.
Dragon 32 Universe indicates they know of 969 games (programs?) for the Dragon of which they have 417 archived. I'm not sure that includes all the CoCo programs have been recently ported.
I don't know how many games there are for the VIC20.

[carlsson]

Well, the preservation project at www.vic20tapes.org has 834 titles listed, of which some are duplicates. Digital Press has 177 cartridges that are US releases, 19 non-US. That is excluding various homebrews, and also excluding all kinds of type-ins that never were released on tape. The library for original disk games is so slim that I'd consider it to be zero, perhaps a dozen games if you look very hard.

 

So even removing 100 from duplicates would put the VIC library well over 900 unique titles, mostly games. Add type-ins and homebrews, and you'll probably be closer to 1100 if not more.

 

Edit: Apparently the Gamebase 20 has entries for a bit over 1500 games per December 2013.

Edited February 17, 2014 by carlsson

[Mayhem]

That was prior to release of v0.3 of the database. Currently the database has just exceeded 2,300 entries I believe as I work on v1.0 for the future. Some of these are duplicates, in a way, as I have separate entries for the same game released by multiple companies.

 

And there is at least one original game (outside of homebrew) that was released on disk. But you're right, they are few and far between.

[Nebulon]

so in game music was always possible, it's just that nobody did it.

Some CoCo games did have in-game music. Like Grabber by Tom Mix Software.

 

And now that I take a closer look, I see that this has already been mentioned.

 

As for which machine to go with? Well, I'm more familiar with the CoCo/Dragon and there are lots of games on there that I like. However, I really dig Omega Race on the Vic 20. Both systems are quite primitive, yet unique.

 

A bit of a dilemma really.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Nebulon

[Nebulon]

Well, now's my chance to throw some CoCo/Dragon tidbits out there for people who haven't had a chance to play around with them much:

 

A list of recommended games:

 

- Time Bandit
- Cash Man
- Dungeons of Daggorath
- Dragon Slayer
- F1 Racer (somewhat like Pole Position)
- Buzzard Bait (Joust)
- Downland

- Grabber
- Lunar Rover (Moon Patrol)
- Phantom Slayer (crude-looking but effective)
- F-16 Assault
- Color Car (Bump n' Jump)
- Qiks (Qix)
- Whirlybird Run (Super Cobra)
- Pit Stop II
- Shock Trooper

 

A quick video of some of the better Tandy Color Computer games:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2QlXXU0waw

 

And for anyone out there looking for a way to transfer TRS-80 Color Computer data from diskette to the PC (or for how to get the data from the PC over to Color Computer diskettes), here's a way that works quite well. Time to fire up the ol' Windows 98se PC that's likely collecting dust. The executable is a patch for Windows 98se that fixes some issues that the O/S has with 360K 5.25" disk drives.

http://www.voltage-control.com/cocotrns.html

 

As for using Atari joysticks, it is possible to use an adaptor. I had one built by a cable-supply shop way back when. It's a simple box that goes from the round DIN-style ports to the DB-9 joystick plugs.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Nebulon

[JamesD]

There is also this for the CoCo.
http://cocosdc.blogspot.com/

[Nebulon]

There is also this for the CoCo.

http://cocosdc.blogspot.com/

Holy smokes! I can't even imagine what it would be like to have a 2GB SD card attached to a Color Computer. That's pretty wild.

 

I see the CoCo hardware hacking culture is still alive and well. Makes sense, since that's always been one of its strong points.

[BassGuitari]

 

...the demographic for the Dragon/Coco is almost octogenarian.

I've noticed that, too. It seems to be true of the TRS-80 scene as a whole, not just CoCo. At VCF shows, the guy with the CoCo is always among the oldest people there.

 

When I display my Model I at MGC, usually the only people who stop to putz with it or chat me up about it are the old-timers who used TRS-80s back in the day. And then they'll talk about all kinds of arcane things about the hardware and the work they did with them, not games.

 

I think just about all the TRS-80/Color Computer fans who don't yet qualify for AARP membership are here at AA...

[JamesD]

<deleted>

Edited February 21, 2014 by JamesD

[Nebulon]

Here's another list of Color Computer games:

 

http://www.colorcomputerarchive.com/coco/Disks/Games/

[eightbit]

I love my Coco3 and all of the cool things you can do with it (Drivewire, etc), but hands down, the Vic is a MUCH MUCH MUCH better gaming machine (times that by 10).

 

If you are looking for a gaming machine of this era, the Vic is the one. Now I sound like Bill Cosby. No really. It really IS the one. There are many great titles on it, it plays great, sounds great....just a great computer overall for the time period. The Coco (or Dragon) is also a fantastic machine, but games are kind of a side thing as opposed to what it can do as a computer. Now, there are some great games for it, but I consider it more of a "tinkering" computer than a games machine. And that is ok, as long as that is what you are looking for.

 

I own both and love both, so I am looking at this from both sides of the spectrum. If it is gaming you are looking for, get a Vic. You won't regret it.

[carlsson]

Hm, didn't Bill Cosby promote the TI-99/4A? William Shatner promoted the VIC-20 though, pairing it against the Atari 2600.

[potatohead]

IMHO, the gaming experience being similar to a //e rings true for me. I have both.

 

However, the CoCo rarely got pushed on graphics. And the CoCo3 even more so. That one can do very nice 160x~200 graphics in nearly 256 colors... 1 byte pixels! Never really got exploited in that way. See my blog for some pretty pictures generated with the awesome help of Jason Law.

 

Both machines could use a bit of modern programming trick love, also IMHO.

[JamesD]

...

-6502 was a more popular CPU, and is hence more well documented.

...

I didn't notice this comment before.

What isn't documented about the 6809?

[desiv]

What isn't documented about the 6809?

He can't tell you, because it's NOT documented!!!

 

LOL

 

SORRY... ;-( :-) Couldn't help it..

 

desiv

(I'm glad I have a really low measuring point for humor..)

[Hatta]

It's not that the 6809 isn't documented, it's that there aren't sites like 6502.org or visual6502.org for the 6809. The information is out there for the 6809, just less accessible.

[potatohead]

Guess you can't really do tricks, without trick documentation...