Klax, Atari ST to Jaguar conversion

[Shamus]

Yes - this is to prove that a 'slow' C can be used [assuming you know how ] to create a 3D game at 60 fps without tearing AND without abusing any of the Jaguar's coprocessors (Blitter, DSP, GPU, OP)

Apparently comprehension isn't a strong suit with you?

 

You have not created a game, you have created a tech demo. When you have actually written a game--you know, one that you can actually play--you can come back and make that claim perhaps, but for now, all you have provided is a lot of hot air, proving nothing.

[sh3-rg]

Everybody else had their fun posting quasi-sarcastic pictures how there is no time for new Klax in 2014, so I don't suppose it is a reasonable use of my coding skills to create a game for a single person.

 

Hyperbole overdrive + persecution complex - he'll go far this one!

 

Just quit with the snidey, Vlad, and code for the fun of it, not to prove inane points to people who don't give a flying fuck.

 

 

And there is still ample performance buffer for the audio (I reserve about 20% of frame time) and input.

Why do something so arbitrary when you can include U-235 and have pad reading for free to boot? It's not all about "frame time" whatever you might mean by that - the Jaguar is a single bus system as you well know, don't speculate and guess what the load of a sound engine might be when you can spend 15 minutes and have the "game" building with 4 channel music & 4 channels of sfx.

 

 

I even have the per-frame gameplay code that initializes, picks, kills and inserts new cubes into the play - exactly same code that will happen in the actual game.

Make the game, don't guess. It's really that simple.

 

At this point, if anyone still feels this does not prove much, after all those 10 pages of flaming by Reboot that it will not go over 3 fps, and that those routines of my mean nothing, when there are multiple cubes in play, then nothing will persuade them.

You really need to get that stick out of your arse. What you see as flaming is people telling you to quit playing guessing games and actually go make a game. Quit making little routines and guessing how they might perform when everything else that makes a game is in there - go make a game.

 

There is only one way to do what you seemingly want to do - prove points to people - go make a game. You seemed to think it'd only take you a weekend or so to whip the trivial "game" part of the equation together, for a man who thinks so highly of his abilities and boasts of the sheer ossomness of his code, it really should be in the bag by now, right?

 

And stop generalising and jumping aboard the Reboot finger-pointing wagon. That ship sailed a long time ago. It was acceptable at js2, it was practically a requirement of membership at Gorf's tumbleweed forum. But you can get to fuck if you think you can attempt to bring back that kind of puerile nonsense to AA, it simply won't happen, you'll just end up looking like a hissy-fitting little girl who wants to create a big fuss over nothing. There really isn't the audience here for your bullshit.

 

 

In this world, there's plenty people that have the voting right (even though they should be revoked of it), yet I can't do anything about it.

 

It's a free world - you can voice your opinion, irrespective of how stupid and ignorant it is, for those in the know.

 

Why should I waste my time trying to persuade such a breed the world they live in is wrong ?

 

Ignorance is bliss...

"Funny English GIF" time?

 

"Funny English GIF" time...

 

Vlad... you sound more and more like Stevie by the day... my simple advice at this point: get -the fuck- over yourself, ffs.

[JagChris]

AA bashing WAS NOT acceptable at JSII sh3 so quit taking pokes at it.

[sh3-rg]

AA bashing WAS NOT acceptable at JSII sh3 so quit taking pokes at it.

 

Reboot bashing, Christopher, Reboot-bashing. So quit sticking your oar in. But if you want to go there, I will simply offer the word "nAAzi" and you will henceforth STFU.

[JagChris]

 

Reboot bashing, Christopher, Reboot-bashing. So quit sticking your oar in. But if you want to go there, I will simply offer the word "nAAzi" and you will henceforth STFU.

 

That was Gorf doing that. When he wouldn't stop, well we all know what happened.

[VladR]

nice to see some progress toward a real 3D klax on the jaguar. i think it would've been a cool early jaguar game to show off the 3D potential of the system.

Sorry, I was in a hurry when I wrote previous reply and could not finish it.

 

I don't think this could be used to show off 3D potential of the Jaguar, for the very simple reason that I am avoiding the use of any of the GPU/DSP/Blitter/OP. Well, you can't avoid OP drawing the framebuffer, since that's how the HW is wired - but I certainly do not use OP for drawing of any of the scene graphics elements.

 

The C code, as it is, would run on any platform that has Motorola 68000 in it. Thinking about it, it can run on anything that has a C compiler, so it could even be 8-bit platforms - although I would have to work on reducing the memory footprint a bit, since right now it would not fit into 64KB.

 

To actually 'show off' the Jaguar, I would have to transfer the code to GPU/DSP and start using Blitter/OP.

 

On the other hand, you are correct. This is merely 68k code - so if I could be bothered to start using GPU/Blitter/DSP/OP, then all kinds of effects will be possible, namely:

- background 3D objects - fully animated - imagine a hangar with trolleys driving in the background

- antialiasing for the cubes/fields

- textured and animated conveyor belt

- dynamic light effects

- animated background (e.g. rotating planet in the background)

 

So Yes. It could be used for showing off Jaguar. But, alas - so far there has been only person genuinely asking for the game for the sake of the game - JagChris. Great majority of others just want the game to see me wasting more time on it.

 

 

So, I ask again - what is the point of wasting my time to make a game that only one person in the world would play ?

[+remowilliams]

 

That was Gorf doing that. When he wouldn't stop, well we all know what happened.

 

Yes, I believe Thunderbird bounced him on his knee in joy.

[+Gemintronic]

Sorry, I was in a hurry when I wrote previous reply and could not finish it.

 

I don't think this could be used to show off 3D potential of the Jaguar, for the very simple reason that I am avoiding the use of any of the GPU/DSP/Blitter/OP. Well, you can't avoid OP drawing the framebuffer, since that's how the HW is wired - but I certainly do not use OP for drawing of any of the scene graphics elements.

 

The C code, as it is, would run on any platform that has Motorola 68000 in it. Thinking about it, it can run on anything that has a C compiler, so it could even be 8-bit platforms - although I would have to work on reducing the memory footprint a bit, since right now it would not fit into 64KB.

 

To actually 'show off' the Jaguar, I would have to transfer the code to GPU/DSP and start using Blitter/OP.

 

On the other hand, you are correct. This is merely 68k code - so if I could be bothered to start using GPU/Blitter/DSP/OP, then all kinds of effects will be possible, namely:

- background 3D objects - fully animated - imagine a hangar with trolleys driving in the background

- antialiasing for the cubes/fields

- textured and animated conveyor belt

- dynamic light effects

- animated background (e.g. rotating planet in the background)

 

So Yes. It could be used for showing off Jaguar. But, alas - so far there has been only person genuinely asking for the game for the sake of the game - JagChris. Great majority of others just want the game to see me wasting more time on it.

 

 

So, I ask again - what is the point of wasting my time to make a game that only one person in the world would play ?

 

You could use it to perfect your routines for VRBasic. Maybe even make it an example game.

 

I could take or leave Klax equally. I thought you were side-tracking yourself with 3D experiments and the Jag. That's OK too

[VladR]

Apparently comprehension isn't a strong suit with you?

 

You have not created a game, you have created a tech demo. When you have actually written a game--you know, one that you can actually play--you can come back and make that claim perhaps, but for now, all you have provided is a lot of hot air, proving nothing.

Funny you mention 'comprehension', when you totally ignore that last 10 pages I was told it was imnpossible to go over 3 fps with more than 1 cube.

 

Now, that it is at 60 fps and there is still a lot of performance buffer - it is still the same song 'techdemo - blah - blah - 60 fps is nothing - blah blah blah - no input - blah blah blah'

OK, go on Add another one I am having fun

[VladR]

 

You could use it to perfect your routines for VRBasic. Maybe even make it an example game.

That's the plan

 

I will create a separate sample (on top of current 7 samples), so that BASIC programmers can create smooth 3D scenes.

 

After all, isn't 3D expected from a 'slow' language as BASIC

[Marcus Losbjer]

Vlad! I also would love to play it, so there's two people at least I would love to help out with whatever I can as well!

[sh3-rg]

So, I ask again - what is the point of wasting my time to make a game that only one person in the world would play ?

 

Smells like you're either planning a damage control strategic exit from the project or fishing for people to come running into your arms begging for a 3D notKlax, either way: lol.

 

My guess would be that you've finally realised that making a Jaguar game, any game, isn't as trivial as it first seems, and most certainly nothing similar to the modern Lego brick game building tools you claim to be proficient in. Then there's the matter of working on a version of a game you've neither played nor have any understanding of how it works and why it's fun for the sole purpose of proving a point to someone who was making a joke... [attach= funny English gif, alt=lolol].

[VladR]

Vlad! I also would love to play it, so there's two people at least I would love to help out with whatever I can as well!

Well, it would certainly be awesome, if you could model/texture few backgrounds - say some space hangar or some spaceship (but renders from multiple perspectives) with large conveyor belts integrated into it !

 

I have a C code that can load the planet texture and render the planet from different distance and under any rotation angle - so I could add that as a background element at run-time - imagine some spaceship hovering above Mars in the background.

 

You remember those planet renders I showed off at JSII, before it was closed down, do you ? Something like that.

 

Did you actually love to play Klax ? That would make you the second person in the world willing to admit to it

[VladR]

My guess would be that you've finally realised that making a Jaguar game, any game, isn't as trivial as it first seems, and most certainly nothing similar to the modern Lego brick game building tools you claim to be proficient in.

 

Lego-building tools ? You said few times before that you are technically proficient other than drawing some sprites.

 

But you just proved that you are not ! By 'Lego-building' tools, it is usually meant something like Unity3D, which I said many times I would not use.

 

And I don't have to. I have my own multiplatform scalable 3D engine, written from scratch in C++ and then rewritten into C#, without using a single remote component.

 

So, please. Entertain me some more - how writing the engine/gameplay/tools code from scratch is 'lego building'

 

If you don't mind making a total fool of yourself, then sure ! Go on and throw another pearl

 

This is better than a stand-up comedy show !

[sh3-rg]

See this? That was an olive branch. It was a way of giving you the benefit of the doubt and hoping that you'd see the error of your antagonistic ways and opportunity to put behind you all the nonsense and petty fighting. It was a chance for you to concentrate on being productive without the insincere undertones, ulterior motives and back-handed jibes. It was the crossroads at which you could have affirmed your status as a valued member of the AA community or instead continued your head-down-I-know-best-lol-at-all-these-people-attacking-my-valuable-and-important-work ways. You chose to ignore it and instead took your project further away from looking anything like Klax in order, once again, to attempt to prove these asinine points without just completing the required work, points that nobody even cared about either way. Your very next post was just as belligerent as ever, that whole raft of CJ "quotes" that only sought to further fan the flames. Your intentions were perfectly clear.

 

That's where I gave up on you and your "projects", that kind of half-hearted effort soon falls by the wayside when the combative party becomes bored and has their perceived "victory". None of this is at all new when it comes to Jaguar stuff. I've tried to support your activities in the past, thought that no matter how convoluted it might have been, your Jaguar BASIC plan had merit as it'd allow absolutely anyone to have a go. But now, meh, I'd rather go back to baby steps in assembler myself and forego further opportunities to peruse your slimy, disingenuous posts as I add you to my ignore list.

 

And I don't have to. I have my own multiplatform scalable 3D engine, written from scratch in C++ and then rewritten into C#, without using a single remote component.

 

We're well aware of just how ossum you are, Vladimir, no need to remind us in every other post at this point, it's permanently etched and a part of us now forever. History will never forget such greatness.

 

 

This is better than a stand-up comedy show !

 

No, it really isn't.

 

It looks for all the world like the Vladr Show isn't looking to make it beyond the pilot episode right now... shitcan is a callin'. Your 3D Klax won't ever happen because your motivation is not to produce a game, but rather to say "I told you so!" to people who never thought or cared otherwise.

 

Your efforts so far still add up to little more than a few proof of concept basic outlines of what a game might be. It's what people who do actually make games might call pre-alpha. There's nothing wrong with that in itself, it's the Vladr part of the equation that's the problem. Your claims regarding your perceived success are a classic example of all talk and no trousers (speaking of trousers, hey, there's some really nice material I have that I can easily make into trousers over a weekend, I've allowed for all the stitching and pressing in my highly accurate calculations... there aren't any pockets but who needs pockets these days when we have bumbags? ...and there's only one actual leg, but who needs two legs, you can easily imagine what a second leg would look like... and the zipper doesn't work, but I'm a firm believer in having my balls hang out on display - they're big and brassy and I enjoy the easy-scratch access the lack of zipper gives me...). Now do you see? Do you finally see? Somehow I doubt it still.

 

But as long as you're having fun, right? Ignore the posts with any actual comment on what you're doing and why, on what you're saying and the motivation behind it, let's ignore that and concentrate on picky little nothings and blow them up into great subjects of argument. It must really make you feel special when you remind us al of your brilliance, especially in the face of a lowly pixel-pusher like myself... yeah, I constantly have to pinch myself just to make sure I'm not living in a fantasy dreamworld... to remind myself just how lucky we are that you're making "games" for the Jaguar.

 

None, absolutely none, of your side issues, distractions from what you're actually doing, your repeated straw man arguments, will ever prove to anyone other than a few technically bereft derps that what you have made is anything more than what it is - a couple of routines that do something that may or may not kind of resemble something of the look of a sprite-based game from 1989.

 

include "VLADR/LOOK_MA_TOP_OF_THE_WORLD.BMP"

[Shamus]

Funny you mention 'comprehension', when you totally ignore that last 10 pages I was told it was imnpossible to go over 3 fps with more than 1 cube.

 

Now, that it is at 60 fps and there is still a lot of performance buffer - it is still the same song 'techdemo - blah - blah - 60 fps is nothing - blah blah blah - no input - blah blah blah'

OK, go on Add another one I am having fun

I never mentioned anything about anything being impossible, I commented on your rather lame tech demo NON-GAME. You're the one who completely ignored everything that I had to say. Adding you to my ignore list.

[+CyranoJ]

No Reboot bashing at JS2? LOL, that has made my day.

 

You, the JS2 Mafia, Thunderchunt, Gorf, and all the moderators who let them all get away with it for years, et all, personal feelings aside, can all go feck yourself with the stick Vladr keeps up his arse.

 

Even though this is two+ years old, you need to go and watch it, to the end:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njFZAbMO_c8

 

So, in the course of its 10+ years lifespan, tell me exactly what games JS2 nurtured, why I bet the list is as long as your little finger. LOL, #1 place for the Jaguar. All the people actually producing stuff were driven away by those mentioned above. GOOD WORK, GUYS.

Edited March 18, 2014 by CyranoJ

[+Sauron]

This is your last warning. Stop the fighting or this thread will be locked.

[108 Stars]

Everybody else had their fun posting quasi-sarcastic pictures how there is no time for new Klax in 2014, so I don't suppose it is a reasonable use of my coding skills to create a game for a single person.

...okay, I'll blame it on the fact that you haven't played Klax yourself. I would have imagined you have seen this in the videos, but whatever...

 

 

The "no time for Klax in 2014" kind of jokes are a play on the official Klax slogan. Atari Games themselves chose that line to promote the 1989 release kind of like the big game of the next decade. Which was fine back then, but it naturally lends itself to poke fun at it ever since the year 2000.

 

It has nothing to do with a lack of interest in Klax, but more with trying to make humorous remarks about it using that sentence. A very AA thing to do, not taking things too serious, but to have fun. Which seems to be the problem you have here, going back as far as to your first reply to a post I made.

 

It is 2014, and there is time to lighten up.

 

To give some constructive feedback: For Klax to properly work, the blocks must flip over while moving. It is not just a gimmick, it serves as a visual kind of timer for your actions. Much like in some games the music can give you a clue with its rythm, in Klax the flipping of the blocks serves as a help. You can of course do a game without the flipping, but it is not exactly Klax then. The flipping is a design decision for gameplay rather than just a graphical gimmick.

[swapd0]

Yeah the blocks must flip, it's a must.

 

Anyway you can have the flip precalculated and remember that you can only see three faces of a block (just like now) so you won't need to draw more polygons.

[Marcus Losbjer]

You can always remake the latest game from the same creator as Klax. It's very similar to Klax but without the flipping tiles. https://itunes.apple.com/se/app/star*burst/id347411195?mt=8

[walter_J64bit]

I'll play Vladr's version of Klax, Jeff Minter never played Tempest and Tempest 2000 came out just fine so I don't see why someone needs to a play game to write code for a game.

[Shamus]

I'll play Vladr's version of Klax, Jeff Minter never played Tempest and Tempest 2000 came out just fine so I don't see why someone needs to a play game to write code for a game.

 

[+CyranoJ]

Jeff also had a quite large track record of fully completed and highly regarded games, and a fundamental and solid understanding of what makes them compelling and fun....

 

Now do you see the difference?

 

I'll play Vladr's version of Klax, Jeff Minter never played Tempest and Tempest 2000 came out just fine so I don't see why someone needs to a play game to write code for a game.

[+Gemintronic]

What's the game you really wanted ported over walter_J64bit? I honestly forgot