Catbox/Scatbox VGA to HDTV

[sh3-rg]

GOD-tier solution:

[Gunstar]

Nope, sorry. You're still wrong.

 

On a CRT screen, all you may get by using 480p instead of 240p are less visible scanlines. It won't make the picture any sharper or the colors any better.

 

On a LCD or plasma screen, you won't gain anything at all.

From personal experience i can tell the difference dramatically, so kiss off.

[jmetal88]

Nope, sorry. You're still wrong.

 

On a CRT screen, all you may get by using 480p instead of 240p are less visible scanlines. It won't make the picture any sharper or the colors any better.

 

On a LCD or plasma screen, you won't gain anything at all.

 

 

While you are correct in that the video gets scaled eventually either way, you may get different-looking results depending on how the TV does the scaling versus the external device. Usually, a dedicated device will have higher quality scaling hardware than that which is built into your TV, and you may very well end up with a sharper picture and more vivid colors. Of course, if your TV doesn't support RGB input from the Jaguar, you don't have a valid comparison, but I believe Gunstar uses a projector that takes both 15kHz RGB as well as VGA, if I'm correctly recalling an old thread from vague memory.

[Zerosquare]

Sure. But it's got nothing to do with 480p vs 240p.

[jmetal88]

Sure. But it's got nothing to do with 480p vs 240p.

 

That's debatable. If your TV has a bad scaling engine and you feed it a 240p signal, you'll tend to get worse results than if you feed it a 480p signal because it doesn't have to scale the latter signal by nearly as much.

[Gunstar]

 

 

While you are correct in that the video gets scaled eventually either way, you may get different-looking results depending on how the TV does the scaling versus the external device. Usually, a dedicated device will have higher quality scaling hardware than that which is built into your TV, and you may very well end up with a sharper picture and more vivid colors. Of course, if your TV doesn't support RGB input from the Jaguar, you don't have a valid comparison, but I believe Gunstar uses a projector that takes both 15kHz RGB as well as VGA, if I'm correctly recalling an old thread from vague memory.

That is correct about my projector, but, I also have an RGB cable to plug the Jaguar into a Commodore 1084S monitor (regarded as one of the best of the day) and have seen side-by-side the difference between the RGB 240p signal with empty scanlines and the 480p signal to the VGA CRT monitor with those scanlines filled in, and direct side-by-side comparison is dramatic. Zerosquare may as well be telling me I'm wrong about the sky being blue, he just has no clue and obviously no direct experience like I do. Or, giving mister know-it-all the benefit of the doubt, he is using inferior equipment and TV/monitors to acheive his "emperical evidence."

Edited February 17, 2014 by Gunstar

[Gunstar]

 

That's debatable. If your TV has a bad scaling engine and you feed it a 240p signal, you'll tend to get worse results than if you feed it a 480p signal because it doesn't have to scale the latter signal by nearly as much.

Exactly. Not to mention Zerosquare doesn't seem to realize, no matter how many times I point it out, that I am refering to CRT monitors/TV's with scanlines for my point, even though, even my LCD projector puts out a much better picture with the 480p VGA input instead of the 240p RGB input too.

 

Thanks for your input jmetal88, it's nice to see a reply from someone I know, knows what he is talking about.

 

For those who may not know me and my knowledge level, I do have an associate degree in electronics, and 30 years of direct, hands-on experience in repairing, upgrading and modding electronics, and I mean at the component level, not just replacing PCB cards in PCs.

 

I don't talk about ANYHTING, hardware-wise, unless I'm confident I know what I'm talking about.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Gunstar

[LinkoVitch]

That is correct about my projector, but, I also have an RGB cable to plug the Jaguar into a Commodore 1084S monitor (regarded as one of the best of the day) and have seen side-by-side the difference between the RGB 240p signal with empty scanlines and the 480p signal to the VGA CRT monitor with those scanlines filled in, and direct side-by-side comparison is dramatic. Zerosquare may as well be telling me I'm wrong about the sky being blue, he just has no clue and obviously no direct experience like I do. Or, giving mister know-it-all the benefit of the doubt, he is using inferior equipment and TV/monitors to acheive his "emperical evidence."

 

One possible thing to be considered...

If you are feeding the RGB into the commodore monitor and the VGA into another monitor and you are saying the VGA image is better..

 

Is it not possible that the quality of the VGA monitor's screen is better due to it being newer tech and a newer screen? I'd guess they are not the same age. So you may actually be seeing the benefits more due to the difference in screens. If you could without changes swap the outputs over you would then be able to compare screen quality as well.

 

A true test would be to feed the inputs into identical hardware, and then to swap them between output devices to ensure there are no differences with output device.

[sh3-rg]

That is correct about my projector, but, I also have an RGB cable to plug the Jaguar into a Commodore 1084S monitor (regarded as one of the best of the day) and have seen side-by-side the difference between the RGB 240p signal with empty scanlines and the 480p signal to the VGA CRT monitor with those scanlines filled in, and direct side-by-side comparison is dramatic. Zerosquare may as well be telling me I'm wrong about the sky being blue, he just has no clue and obviously no direct experience like I do.

 

Saying an engineer like zero has no clue isn't very nice or fair.

 

Your monitor was nice for what it did 25 years ago as a 13" 640x200/640x400i monitor, but a lot of those old CM8833-a-likes haven't really stood the test of time so what an unit in particular does or does not do could be very different to the next one.

 

Interesting though that many serious retro gamers go out of their way to fake or add in those very scan lines (or at least the appearance of them) for a more authentic experience on their panel screens, detesting the clean and chunky look they offer

 

ps when you look up and see a blue sky, I might be looking up at the same sky and seeing grey or red. What I'm saying is, other people have different perspectives and see the same things differently to you, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are wrong.

[LinkoVitch]

 

ps when you look up and see a blue sky, I might be looking up at the same sky and seeing grey or red. What I'm saying is, other people have different perspectives and see the same things differently to you, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are wrong.

 

Ha! I know where you live sh3! I know when you look up, assuming the sky hasn't fallen.. again.. it's GREY, dark grey or black

[sh3-rg]

Ha! I know where you live sh3! I know when you look up, assuming the sky hasn't fallen.. again.. it's GREY, dark grey or black

 

Am dissapoint. Was expecting more along lines of "I know where you live, sh3... I look up at the same sky and it's a wonderful feeling to know that when I'm peering up into the vastness of all time and space, you're there doing the same. o x o"

 

Oh well.

 

コックジャグリング雷女

[Gunstar]

 

Saying an engineer like zero has no clue isn't very nice or fair.

 

Your monitor was nice for what it did 25 years ago as a 13" 640x200/640x400i monitor, but a lot of those old CM8833-a-likes haven't really stood the test of time so what an unit in particular does or does not do could be very different to the next one.

 

Interesting though that many serious retro gamers go out of their way to fake or add in those very scan lines (or at least the appearance of them) for a more authentic experience on their panel screens, detesting the clean and chunky look they offer

 

ps when you look up and see a blue sky, I might be looking up at the same sky and seeing grey or red. What I'm saying is, other people have different perspectives and see the same things differently to you, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are wrong.

The screen for my 1084 is in excellent condition, it's well taken care of, and not used much, so I know it's a good, clear, colorful picture. If Zero is an engineer, then he should indeed know what he is talking about, but it doesn't mean he is right about everything (and niether am I), and telling me I'm straight-out wrong is assinine too.

 

My experience is not limited to just the CRT screens I have, but as Jmeta88 mentioned, I also have and LCD projector with RGB, VGA, HDMI, component, composite and S-video inputs. And LCD monitors with VGA, DVI and HDMI, and a wide-screen 1080i rear-projection RGB CRT TV with component, S-video, composite and DVI inputs. As well as an assortment of SD composite monitors all in excellent condition with good pictures and I have cables for the Jaguar and my other computers and consoles with composite, S-video, RGB, VGA, DVI and HDMI.

 

Zero may be an engineer, but I have hands on experience with all these TV's and monitors and know what I am talking about as far as they are concerned. My graduation thesis was on display technology and I got an A for the paper, covering CRT and LCD tech (DLP and plasma weren't invented or widely available yet, but I am educated to them now too). From my experience with my equipment, the 480p signal is clearly superior to 240p and not just between my 1084 and VGA CRT monitors, but amongst all the monitors and TV's I have. The Ambery converter is surely not the best either, but it is excellent for it's price and is good enough to show clear superiority in the display.

 

I didn't know Zero's background, but he doesn't know mine or my experiences either and he has been nothing but a total ass towards me in this discussion, so I have no regrets in any of my replies to him. He can still kiss off. As Jmetal said, it all depends on the hardware, and there is a definate diffierence in 240p vs 480p as I know from experience and study.

 

Yes, it can be a matter of opinion with some "hardcore reto gamers" (I am one) as far as the preference to 240p or 480p. I always hated the skipped scanlines of 240p on CRT monitors and appreciate 480p. And from my personal experience with my high-quality displays, even with LCD, I can see a clear difference between 240p and 480p signals, even if the projector upscales the 240p to 480p. My experience shows a sharper, more colorful picture with 480p signals and that is what i prefer.

 

Finally, my education is not limited to an associate degree in electronics, I received that after 2 other bachelor's degrees in fine art and english (though spelling I still constantly work to improve), I am well educated. But one thing I have learned in life, is that no amount of school education or degrees is worth as much as real world experience and wisdom, which is only gained by real world experience. I don't care if Zero is an engineer or if it's a masters degree or doctorite, or whatever, from my perspective, on his attitude, for this discussion, he lacks wisdom, and his being an engineer does not automatically mean he knows, on certain subjects, including subjects within electronics, more than I do. Though I would defer to his knowledge in many areas, I'm sure, but that comes from wisdom. My 30 years of experience have gained me far more knowledge than any master degree could alone.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Gunstar

[sh3-rg]

[LinkoVitch]

 

For those of you with GIF volume set low....

 

**SPANG!**

[Gunstar]

It is more than apparent that whatever I say, how I explain my rational and no matter the reasons I give, that there are those who will insist i am wrong by continual exuses, not that it matters, I know what I know and I'm satisfied I'm right, as far as I am concerned, and also as far as Travistouchdown is concerned too, as he is taking my advice and has asked me to build him a custom cable to get the same setup as I have. I'm done here.

[Jagosaurus]

So for my education... I keep an eye out for older PC monitors or ST monitors... will these work with Jag VGA (Dreamcast also?)?

 

Any way to tell if its 15Hz vs 30Hz? Obviously could try Google but not always convenient @ flea markets.

 

To be honest I'm a bit too cheap to drop the $ on a cat box but a composite to VGA adapter could create an entirely different signal, correct?

 

Very informative thread! Thanks guys.

[Gunstar]

So for my education... I keep an eye out for older PC monitors or ST monitors... will these work with Jag VGA (Dreamcast also?)?

 

Any way to tell if its 15Hz vs 30Hz? Obviously could try Google but not always convenient @ flea markets.

 

To be honest I'm a bit too cheap to drop the $ on a cat box but a composite to VGA adapter could create an entirely different signal, correct?

 

Very informative thread! Thanks guys.

The RGB signal coming out of the Jaguar will only work with older, 15Khz standard-def NTSC monitors (as far as I know, I've never seen a new TV or monitor (HD) that has 15hz RGB 9-pin (*see SCART details below) input. With the resolution of 640x480i (**540i on PAL), and with the Jaguar's 240p signal, it skips every other scan line.

 

*But, SCART inputs on Euopean **PAL TV's will work with the Jaguar 15Khz signal. If the modern HD TV or monitor has SCART RGB input on it, you can buy a Jaguar SCART RGB cable, plug it into the newer HD monitor or TV and it will be automatically upscale converted to 480p signal.

 

Component RGB on standard def TV's is 15Khz, but then you need an RGB to Component (YcBcR) converter anyway. There are modern HD TV's with component input that will automatically upscale to 480p, 30Khz, but again, you would still need an RGB to component (YcBcR) converter. There may be newer monitors or TV's that have 15Khz RGB 9-pin inputs, but I've never seen them.

 

The Dreamcast works with 30Khz VGA out, and can plug directly into VGA or SVGA, LCD, etc. monitors that go from 480p and up beyond 1080p HD. The Ambery RGB to VGA product I linked earlier will convert the Jaguar's 15Khz RGB signal into a 30Khz 480p singal to use with VGA, SVGA, LCD, etc. monitors like the Dreamcst does already as standard. They can be the older CRT or modern LCD, Plasma, etc. TV's and monitors with 15-pin VGA input.

 

 

 

I'm thinking maybe I wasn't clear enough before about the difference in 240p on an old standard-def CRT monitor as opposed to newer VGA/SVGA/XGA/WXGA monitors. But the Jaguar won't work with them unless it's upscaled and converted to 480p, 30Khz signal with a product like the Ambery RGB to VGA converter box.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Gunstar

[Jagosaurus]

Awesome, thanks. My LCD has 15 pin, hooked my older laptop to it several times. Didn't think about the older units with 9 pins. Good general way to differentiate.

 

I'll continue to keep an eye out for Atari monitors. I also always look for the few US NTSC CRT units with SCART.

[LinkoVitch]

Had a thought on this I don't think has been mentioned, it's possibly not ideal.. but it MAY be possible to source Arcade monitors in the US easier? These are typically CGA (15kHz) RGB screens, although typically (all the ones I have dealt with) have been the bare tube/PCB so lacking PSU or any kind of casing.. Not sure if there may be ones available with a case. But these should all work perfectly as RGB monitors for your Jag.

[Rick Dangerous]

To be honest I'm a bit too cheap to drop the $ on a cat box but a composite to VGA adapter could create an entirely different signal, correct?

 

 

I just lost an eBay auction for a Catbox and thank god honestly...$240 bucks saved. I don't really see the point in the thing after doing more research. A few Jaglinks are much cheaper if you want to play Doom Co-op. The additional picture quality squeezed out of the 9-pin RGB out is pretty subjective/speculative if you ask me..

[LinkoVitch]

Probably cheaper to import a European TV with SCART

[Jagosaurus]

Had a thought on this I don't think has been mentioned, it's possibly not ideal.. but it MAY be possible to source Arcade monitors in the US easier? These are typically CGA (15kHz) RGB screens, although typically (all the ones I have dealt with) have been the bare tube/PCB so lacking PSU or any kind of casing.. Not sure if there may be ones available with a case. But these should all work perfectly as RGB monitors for your Jag.

Good thought. You could convert an old cab into a Jag cab.

 

Although I didn't mention it before when I said NTSC CRT SCART monitors, most of these will be from healthcare... used as monitors in ultrasound machines, etc. I guess bc some of these companies have roots across the pond they went for the best picture possible even if it wasn't the standard here.

[sh3-rg]

The RGB signal coming out of the Jaguar will only work with older, 15Khz standard-def NTSC monitors (as far as I know, I've never seen a new TV or monitor (HD) that has 15hz RGB 9-pin (*see SCART details below) input. With the resolution of 640x480i (**540i on PAL), and with the Jaguar's 240p signal, it skips every other scan line.

Can you help me out here? Can you explain why is skips scanlines? I'm lost at this part. I thought interlaced video worked by displaying all the odd fields on one frame and all the even ones the next (and I vaguely think I remember something about dropping a scan line or half half a scanline before the 2nd pass?). Persistence of vision with CRT allows the image to look more steady that it "should" and the image looks like twice the resolution of the signal? Is that massively out of the way things really work? I'm digging far back to my brief Amiga days, so it's all very dim and distant and I likely didn't even understand back then to begin with I just don't understand the bit about skipping every other scanline when the screen's resolution is 200 pixels high. What actually happens when a 60 frames image is sent to the screen? It gets 240 lines worth of odd scanlines one frame and 240 even the next? And repeats that another 29 times in a second. What does it skip? I'm confused :0)

Also, on your 15kHz Commodore monitor, the resolution is 200 pixels high and 400 interlaced, how does that work physically? Does it only have 200 actual lines of RGB cells to illuminate? How does an image 240 pixels high display correctly on that screen? Does it not give an actual 1:1 representation of the Jaguar's output, line by line? So many questions, I'm sorry!

*But, SCART inputs on Euopean **PAL TV's will work with the Jaguar 15Khz signal. If the modern HD TV or monitor has SCART RGB input on it, you can buy a Jaguar SCART RGB cable, plug it into the newer HD monitor or TV and it will be automatically upscale converted to 480p signal.

 

That is true, but it's all down to the magic that TV does to get there. My old Bravia panel has a neat trick of displaying banded sprites with a Jaguar input, this comes and goes and looks terrible. My much newer Bravia upscales and handles the SCART input so well, it kind of negates using the xRGB mini just for playing occasionally (I mostly use that for captures into a GCHD anyway). I bought a cheap little panel Toshiba (lol) a few years ago, only use was for Jaguar display 2nd screen at conventions/parties. It doesn't get on well at all with the Jaguar's SCART output at either 50Hz or 60Hz. Every few seconds the screen blinks (some sort of sync issue?) and the similar banding sprites are there, too, as my old Bravia. Works fine through the xRGB with HDMI, but that's beside the point.

[Gunstar]

 

Can you help me out here? Can you explain why is skips scanlines? I'm lost at this part. I thought interlaced video worked by displaying all the odd fields on one frame and all the even ones the next (and I vaguely think I remember something about dropping a scan line or half half a scanline before the 2nd pass?). Persistence of vision with CRT allows the image to look more steady that it "should" and the image looks like twice the resolution of the signal? Is that massively out of the way things really work? I'm digging far back to my brief Amiga days, so it's all very dim and distant and I likely didn't even understand back then to begin with I just don't understand the bit about skipping every other scanline when the screen's resolution is 200 pixels high. What actually happens when a 60 frames image is sent to the screen? It gets 240 lines worth of odd scanlines one frame and 240 even the next? And repeats that another 29 times in a second. What does it skip? I'm confused :0)

Also, on your 15kHz Commodore monitor, the resolution is 200 pixels high and 400 interlaced, how does that work physically? Does it only have 200 actual lines of RGB cells to illuminate? How does an image 240 pixels high display correctly on that screen? Does it not give an actual 1:1 representation of the Jaguar's output, line by line? So many questions, I'm sorry!

 

That is true, but it's all down to the magic that TV does to get there. My old Bravia panel has a neat trick of displaying banded sprites with a Jaguar input, this comes and goes and looks terrible. My much newer Bravia upscales and handles the SCART input so well, it kind of negates using the xRGB mini just for playing occasionally (I mostly use that for captures into a GCHD anyway). I bought a cheap little panel Toshiba (lol) a few years ago, only use was for Jaguar display 2nd screen at conventions/parties. It doesn't get on well at all with the Jaguar's SCART output at either 50Hz or 60Hz. Every few seconds the screen blinks (some sort of sync issue?) and the similar banding sprites are there, too, as my old Bravia. Works fine through the xRGB with HDMI, but that's beside the point.

 

Skipping scan-lines is a generalization and not technically true, all 480i scan-lines are drawn 240 and then a second pass at 240, but every other scan-line is black, or no data (like just all 0's) with a 240p signal on a SD 480i TV/monitor. A 480i signal does 480 lines, but as you stated does 240 on odd lines, and then a second of 240 on the even lines but every line has it's own data so no lines are left black or "no data."

A good example of the difference can be found when comparing (on a standard-def 480i screen) a Panasonic 3DO's 480i signal (the 3DO displays 240p inside 480i by displaying the same 240p signal twice on both even and odd scan-lines of the 480i screen) and works like you've described, to a Jaguar, Saturn or PSX that display a 240p signal on a 480i screen, with one pass of 240p every other scanline and a second pass of 240p "no data" every other scan-line.

 

With modern HD TV's 240p and 480i signals are automatically up-scaled to 480p. With 480i signals, the 240p on two passes is converted to 640p in on progressive pass. With 240p signals the data is doubled, on every other progressive scan-line so you get 240p resolution still, but with every scan-line filled in with data, no "skipped" scan-lines.

 

As to my 1084s-p model 50/60hz (can display PAL and NTSC signals)monitor, I don't know where you are getting your resolution numbers, maybe from the display window of the Commodore computer, but my 1084S-P displays up to 640x512i; 640 x 256, 640 x 512 (interlaced) with a PAL signal and 640x240, 640x480 (interlaced) NTSC signal: See below, look under #5 Technical specifications

http://project64.c64.org/hw/1084s%20Monitor.txt

Any resolution lower than 512i is letter-boxed on my 1084S-P monitor. But I can adjust the vertical to make it cover the entire picture tube.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Gunstar

[sh3-rg]

Thanks, Gunstar.

 

I still don't fully understand but I guess I never will I always had it in my mind that the 2nd half of the complete frame was not just exciting a completely different row of RGB elements for some reason, but with what you said I can now see why a full frame of all scanlines might appear twice as bright.

 

What you said about line doubling I've seen first hand on my Falcon030 with VGA when using ST 320x200 mode.

 

I got the Commodore monitor info from a review on Amibay. Probably should have looked for something more official