The Cost of Jaguar Development

[Paul Westphal]

Oooooo..Sizzle.

[+CyranoJ]

Nah, there's nothing cooking in this thread

 

Oooooo..Sizzle.

[Paul Westphal]

Hey CJ, I'm Getting my Rocketeer this week. Too bad Degz isn't included o the CD...

[+CyranoJ]

Excellent! Hope you enjoy it and post some scores on the website.

 

You can download a CD image of Degz (or maybe your own using JiFFi) from the Reboot website.

 

Hey CJ, I'm Getting my Rocketeer this week. Too bad Degz isn't included o the CD...

[Paul Westphal]

I will try to burn it, but will the image work in VJ? or that other emulator...?

[+CyranoJ]

The ROM or the ABS/COF will work in VJ - I developed the game using VJ as I didn't have a Jaguar at the time

 

VJ doesn't support CDs at present.

 

I will try to burn it, but will the image work in VJ? or that other emulator...?

[+Sargon]

-$50k in US does not even get you a student, so forget it.

 

$50k may not get you a top of the class programmer, but depending on where you are in the country it could be a very respectable starting salary. You could surely find plenty of guys willing to work for that amount.

[swapd0]

Today $50.000 = 36.084,95€, That's about 50% more money that I earn as C++ developer.

 

Maybe I should start again to code for the Jaguar.

[VladR]

Ah, so three months of your spare time isn't the same as three months of David Braben's spare time.

 

He can accomplish a full game, you can barely manage a tech demo. But hey, go ahead and belittle his work.

 

'till summer, I am working on two PC games'

 

You should easily be able to accomplish that, I mean nearly everything is done for you on the PC already with fully working libraries. And there is oodles of RAM. No need for you to type in direct machine code instead of 3 char symbols.

 

I get it. You were proclaiming your superiority again over everything, while actually showing nothing completed. All good, time to move on.

 

Good Old CJ

 

ad 3 months spare time - we don't know if he did it in spare time or not. We can only speculate. I am certainly not trying to belittle his work, but you just sounded brutally absurd when you praised those '3 months' as something spectacular. No, it isn't. Like, at all. But it is still a great piece of work, no doubt about that.

 

ad techdemo vs full game : It's all a matter of goals. How many times have I said that in this and other threads ? How many more times do I have to repeat that ? I will gladly do that for you 10-20 more times, if that's what it takes till it finally sinks in

I reckon, 2 yrs from now, you will be counting the work on 3D H.E.R.O. (even though there may be about 1-2 months of actual work done) as it took 3 years, right

 

I certainly don't feel superior, but I do enjoy how you - every single time - jump on the bait. It's truly hilarious

[VladR]

 

$50k may not get you a top of the class programmer, but depending on where you are in the country it could be a very respectable starting salary. You could surely find plenty of guys willing to work for that amount.

Yes, not all parts of US are as expensive as New York. I sometimes forget that.

 

The problem with the $50k as a starting salary here is that the guys who have done similar stuff as we talk about here, on their own dime, know they can ask for more for their starting salary, since they will only miss the 'team experience' part, which is something plenty team can forgive.

 

I still think, considering how expensive the university is in US, that you'd have a hard time to get AND keep the guy for a year or two. Meaning, this would most probably be a second/third option for them, when they become frustrated of not finding any better job.

 

Because, when someone spends $100-$500k on the education, they don't do it with the goal of working on a quarter-century dead gaming platform...

[+CyranoJ]

The only hilarity in this thread comes from your comments.

 

 

I certainly don't feel superior, but I do enjoy how you - every single time - jump on the bait. It's truly hilarious

[VladR]

Today $50.000 = 36.084,95€, That's about 50% more money that I earn as C++ developer.

 

Maybe I should start again to code for the Jaguar.

That's why I said, he has to reach outside of US and into Europe, since there are still plenty places where junior coders start to work for 10,000 EUR per year. ~24k EUR per year is actually a respectable coder's salary in Europe.

 

For 36k EUR = $50k per year, yes - he can find senior coders willing to switch their jobs. But he will have to manage them remotely.

 

To put that into perspective, he'd have to pay $150-$250k per year for a senior coder to do the same here in US.

[VladR]

The only hilarity in this thread comes from your comments.

 

If you say so

[+CyranoJ]

Whatever, dude, whatever. We both know your just here on an ego trip.

 

If you say so

[LinkoVitch]

Vlad, you seriously need to get over yourself. Atari produced a 3D rendering tech demo before the Jag was launched for that years E3 show, the comments with it even say that portions of it are written in (IIRC inefficient) C. It features full 3D texture mapped scene with rotating texture mapped objects and user control of the scene.

 

So stop assuming you are the best thing since sliced bread because of a simplistic single cube moving down the screen, there are 100's of demo's of much more complex screens on far slower/older machines. If you are as amazing as you think you are, why don't you actually finish something and release it? instead of replying to any and all semi technical threads with some vague guesswork about how X would be done in a C environment as though you are some kind of authority. So far you have commented in this manner on several posts and as of yet it seems you haven't even checked out the original item being discussed and made some wild assumptions based on a few youtube videos you have half watched.

 

Simply put: Put up or Shut-up

[VladR]

Whatever, dude, whatever. We both know your just here on an ego trip.

 

No. I said it many times and I will repeat it why I work on stuff for Jaguar :

 

Atari 800 XL practically kickstarted my career by me working on my coding skills since the age 11. That's why I am where I am now.

 

I simply feel the need to give something back to the community, that's all. Which is why I started working on the VRBasic.

 

Yes, I am aware it may sound pathetic, but I still feel I should give something back to Atari, since it got me where I am in life. For which I am truly grateful.

 

 

I could do without the constant bickering here, but if you switch yourself to a proper mode, it's doable

[+CyranoJ]

Then give something back, instead of the threads of false promises and self praise.

 

 

I simply feel the need to give something back to the community, that's all. Which is why I started working on the VRBasic.

 

[VladR]

Vlad, you seriously need to get over yourself. Atari produced a 3D rendering tech demo before the Jag was launched for that years E3 show, the comments with it even say that portions of it are written in (IIRC inefficient) C. It features full 3D texture mapped scene with rotating texture mapped objects and user control of the scene.

 

So stop assuming you are the best thing since sliced bread because of a simplistic single cube moving down the screen, there are 100's of demo's of much more complex screens on far slower/older machines. If you are as amazing as you think you are, why don't you actually finish something and release it? instead of replying to any and all semi technical threads with some vague guesswork about how X would be done in a C environment as though you are some kind of authority. So far you have commented in this manner on several posts and as of yet it seems you haven't even checked out the original item being discussed and made some wild assumptions based on a few youtube videos you have half watched.

 

Simply put: Put up or Shut-up

I never said I have a better / faster renderer than Atari. You are reading into it too much and just trying to stir water a bit. As always....

 

I only said, that from the current crop of C-based rasterizers on Atari Jaguar, mine is fastest, which is true since I do not know about any other that is purely in C.

 

Besides, Atari's rasterizer is NOT C. It is all ASM. I have that code from the SDK. It's all full-blown ASM.

 

One would assume, that a guy working in ASM would understand that. Well....

 

Thus, any comparison with it is automatically invalid. But, since it makes you feel better to jump bashing on me, why would you waste such an incredible opportunity, eh ?

[Shamus]

[LinkoVitch]

Nope, the only person here who seems to be stirring is yourself.. As always. You are very quick to forget any help you have been offered for your questions relating to incredibly simple tasks, instead choosing to ignore the answers you have been given and mock those who have offered you actual help.

 

I did NOT say Atari's SDK rasteriser. If you read what I put (and actually read ALL. OF. THE. WORDS) I said "Atari produced a 3D rendering tech demo before the Jag was launched for that years E3 show" in the accompanying readme file there were notes from the devs of that saying it was C based and hence could be vastly improved.

 

Your 3D demo of a single cube sliding down the screen hardly proves any of what has been said about it being slow wrong. A single cube, really.. that's it.. wow.. mind. blown.. not really. Of course you will bang on about being the 1st like it is some kind of prize. Writing a software based 3D renderer in C is certainly going to make the task a lot easier given C is going to do most of the complicated stuff for you, hell there are plenty of examples on the net of 3D renderers, we could just go and pick one of them up, little bit of tweaking and sit it on top of code and help provided by others on how to actually interface with the hardware (because you don't actually have a clue how anything on the Jag really works), bingo! the fastest (because it's the only one) C rasteriser on the Jag!..... and no. one. cares. Nice of you to give back some ego to the community, very constructive and useful.

 

So, you failed to read what I wrote and JUMPED to your own conclusion in an effort to once again attack someone and try and make yourself look superior, also trying to mock my comprehension of what ASM is (yeah I too like giving back to the Atari community, hence the things I have actually given back, including a fully working Sound Engine written in ASM.. so yeah I know what ASM is, this has been proven for many years now..)

Yet again you try and play the victim in your post, nope sorry, you are here for nothing more than your ego.

 

You still haven't put up, please therefore, do, do SHUT UP!

[+Gemintronic]

I don't think you're going to convince these guys with words, Vlad. You know I'll be excited to see your games and especially VRBasic. Unless this back and forth helps you code I'd say don't get distracted

[VladR]

You should easily be able to accomplish that, I mean nearly everything is done for you on the PC already with fully working libraries. And there is oodles of RAM. No need for you to type in direct machine code instead of 3 char symbols.

What a funny bloke you are

 

I never said it's hard on PC. It is, however, a lot of work since I am not trying to make some simplistic 2D scrolling game, but am instead writing a fullblown 3D engine & toolset and a DungeonSiege-style RPG game (just in a non-fantasy setting) that is usually made by a team of 8-10 full-time coders.

 

Just during last two weekends I implemented / fixed exactly 30 features / bugs. You know, procedural content generation (Inventory / Content of Crates) adapting to player's characteristics and is still fair and properly challenging takes a lot of work to get right. So, even if you think I don't work on gameplay stuff, I actually do. A lot

 

I may reuse all that RPG code for some jag rpg later, but probably not within next 2 years.

[+CyranoJ]

Tell us all again how you manually typed in hex, uncle Vladr. you soo ossum.

 

Nobody. Cares. Including the people on your steam thread

Edited April 17, 2014 by CyranoJ

[twoquickcapri]

I guess the real cost of Jaguar Development is your sanity.

[sh3-rg]

I certainly don't feel superior, but I do enjoy how you - every single time - jump on the bait. It's truly hilarious

 

Interesting to see you admitting to the abrasive and inflammatory nature of your posts and the intent behind them.

 

Discussions on forums shouldn't be about bait and traps with posts you know will only upset people or provoke anger, and nobody really wants to read about how you think your routines are the best out there for that matter, save that kind of narcissistic handjobbing for your memoirs.

 

Just do your thing, post your builds and videos and quit playing games with people's heads as nobody wants to wade through the resulting dross in hope of finding something worth reading.

 

Case in point:

 

I only said, that from the current crop of C-based rasterizers on Atari Jaguar, mine is fastest, which is true since I do not know about any other that is purely in C.

So you said something ambiguous knowing that you would be picked up on it and could then have the opportunity to proclaim:

 

LOOK, YOU'RE WRONG ON THE INTERNETS! DUUUUH!

 

LOOK AT THESE GUYS PICKING ON ME AND BEING WRONG YET AGAIN! WHO EVEN LIKES THESE GUYS?

 

I could do without the constant bickering here, but if you switch yourself to a proper mode, it's doable

The self-satisfied jibes aren't all that helpful, either, come to think of it.

 

I simply feel the need to give something back to the community, that's all.

rollolololeyes.gif

 

Sanctimonious outpourings align poorly with conduct? Check.

 

We've already had the pleasure of one such incarnation of the all-in-one Jesus Christ/Mother Teresa/Optimus Prime/Captain America, I fear the second coming is upon us. Stevie also believed he was fighting the good fight, putting the Atari world to rights and so on and so on, is it a Jaguar thing or a condition or what... who knows?

 

I guess the real cost of Jaguar Development is your sanity.

boom.gif

 

And I think the thread is done...