Is there any PROOF that the 7800 was test marketed in 1984?

[Greg2600]

 

Again, respecting theory/speculation, an alternate universe where a 1984 Atari 7800 was pushed what possibly could have happened.

 

Quite possible, but let's not forget that Atari was notoriously hostile towards 3rd party developers, suing Activision most notably. Would that have changed? Would they have developed a lock-out to prevent continued, rampant, unlicensed crap from being released? Nintendo also spent boatloads on advertising and media, which was not done before in the industry in quite that scale. SEGA opted not to with the Master System.

[Trebor]

Quite possible, but let's not forget that Atari was notoriously hostile towards 3rd party developers, suing Activision most notably. Would that have changed? Would they have developed a lock-out to prevent continued, rampant, unlicensed crap from being released? Nintendo also spent boatloads on advertising and media, which was not done before in the industry in quite that scale. SEGA opted not to with the Master System.

 

 

Full force 1984 Atari 7800 release could have been the (start) reversal/change of a lot of decisions made by not only Atari but subsequently, other companies as well.

 

The point being made is not looking for a magic bullet/solution; rather, the chain reaction of a major decision such as a full 1984 release of the 7800 by Atari, and the possible alternative path along with decisions and outcomes that could have occurred by not only Atari and 'company allies', but its competitors as well.

 

We're officially in (multiple) circles at this point

[Lynxpro]

 

Quite possible, but let's not forget that Atari was notoriously hostile towards 3rd party developers, suing Activision most notably. Would that have changed? Would they have developed a lock-out to prevent continued, rampant, unlicensed crap from being released? Nintendo also spent boatloads on advertising and media, which was not done before in the industry in quite that scale. SEGA opted not to with the Master System.

Do you even own a 7800? The 7800 has encryption on it to prevent unauthorized third party titles. The 7800 had this since day one in 1984, long before the NES was released in North America. Sheesh.

[Jaynz]

Do you even own a 7800? The 7800 has encryption on it to prevent unauthorized third party titles. The 7800 had this since day one in 1984, long before the NES was released in North America. Sheesh.

 

Yeah, that's one thing that kept 7800 emulation/homebrews held up for awhile. Really hard to cite NES's villainy on this point, considering how sore a point it was for Atari just a few years earlier.

[DracIsBack]

 

Yeah, that's one thing that kept 7800 emulation/homebrews held up for awhile. Really hard to cite NES's villainy on this point, considering how sore a point it was for Atari just a few years earlier.

 

 

Agree. though the difference being that Nintendo used it to control the manufacturing process, dictate how many cartridges must be ordered and ultimately drove the price high of NES games. Atari never really got there so I'm not sure if Atari intended to control the manufacturing process or simply require permission to publish 7800 games in order to keep stuff like Custer's Revenge (with 7800 graphics) off the machine

[high voltage]

 

Quite possible, but let's not forget that Atari was notoriously hostile towards 3rd party developers, suing Activision most notably. Would that have changed? Would they have developed a lock-out to prevent continued, rampant, unlicensed crap from being released? Nintendo also spent boatloads on advertising and media, which was not done before in the industry in quite that scale. SEGA opted not to with the Master System.

The Atari vs Activision was done by early 1982 (read up about it in EG).

Nintendo was far worse suing anyone who developed for NES without licensing, as mentioned in Game Over, the book. Even with licensing the Famicom/NES managed to get far more crap than the VCS. Mind you, it had a library of ~2000 titles, more crap goes without saying.

 

As for advertising, Atari advertising was everywhere, worldwide.

Edited May 23, 2014 by high voltage

[Greg2600]

Do you even own a 7800? The 7800 has encryption on it to prevent unauthorized third party titles. The 7800 had this since day one in 1984, long before the NES was released in North America. Sheesh.

 

I'm sorry, I forgot about that.

 

The Atari vs Activision was done by early 1982 (read up about it in EG).

Nintendo was far worse suing anyone who developed for NES without licensing, as mentioned in Game Over, the book. Even with licensing the Famicom/NES managed to get far more crap than the VCS. Mind you, it had a library of ~2000 titles, more crap goes without saying.

 

As for advertising, Atari advertising was everywhere, worldwide.

 

The "crap" was largely LJN and Acclaim doing bad games based on Western movie/TV/comic licenses, which would have been crap regardless of the system they were released on.

 

If Nintendo would still have been successful in procuring the 3rd exclusivity agreements from the Japanese developers, then my point still holds. Atari would have had a vastly inferior library, and coupled with Nintendo's big marketing push, would have still allowed the NES to succeed. I'm not saying it absolutely would have happened, nobody could know that for sure, I'm saying that if it played out similarly. I mean, take baseball games. If the 7800 were stuck with nothing better than Pete Rose Baseball, which it was, who was going to buy that system? Bases Loaded, Japanese developed, was head and shoulders above that game. That's just one example of many.

 

To assume that Atari had legions of loyal customers who bought Atari no matter what is simply not accurate either. If that were the case, the Intellivision and Colecovision wouldn't have sold, but they both sold plenty. Not to mention the households who bought a Commodore 64 for games. Once children would have seen/experienced the NES (primarily Japanese) games, the choice would have been made largely the same. They would have asked mom and dad for an NES. Even if they already had a 7800 from a few years earlier, which is a point I made early in this thread.

 

Now, if Atari would have gotten the same Japanese-developed games as Nintendo, then all bets could have been off, provided the hardware needed would have even fit in the 7800 cartridge shell. :; I still think that Nintendo's first party games would have won out still, but it may have been far closer. And I still have zero regrets that NES was a popular as it was, followed by the Genesis and SNES. I loved all three.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Greg2600

[7800]

As great as the Nintendo NES was... and still is. I would have loved to see Atari get the head start with the 7800, or maybe something similar but different. Imagine if Atari went a completely different direction with the design of the console itself... if Atari's successor to the 5200 was something like the NES, but still had the qualities of the 7800. Game pads, AV outputs, larger carts to accommodate massive games, light gun, etc... Even a computer add-on with keyboard although I think maybe that wouldn't have sold well. Most importantly, if Atari secured the rights to those 3rd party games before Nintendo did... who knows how awesome it would have been.

[Trebor]

Now, if Atari would have gotten the same Japanese-developed games as Nintendo, then all bets could have been off, provided the hardware needed would have even fit in the 7800 cartridge shell.

 

256k, 512k, & 1024k carts were planned and unfortunately (like much else) never fully developed:

 

 

Thanks to CPUWIZ, such PCB types and better are not only possible, but already a reality.

 

As already stated in our little circular discussion, release the 7800 fully in 84, kill the Nintendo lock on third parties, and provide the same/similar developer-development software/hardware resources to the 7800 as was given to the NES, and it would have been a whole different ball game. Indeed, all bets off

 

You love the NES...Got it.

You believe the NES was (practically) unstoppable no matter what...Got it.

Your alternate universe scenarios play-out ultimately in (almost) the worst possible way for Atari or/and the 7800...Got it.

 

[Greg2600]

256k, 512k, & 1024k carts were planned and unfortunately (like much else) never fully developed:

 

7800_1mbit_DEV.PNG

 

Thanks to CPUWIZ, such PCB types and better are not only possible, but already a reality. As already stated in our little circular discussion, release the 7800 fully in 84, kill the Nintendo lock on third parties, and provide the same/similar developer-development software/hardware resources to the 7800 as was given to the NES, and it would have been a whole different ball game. Indeed, all bets off

 

You love the NES...Got it.

Your alternative universe scenarios play-out ultimately in (almost) the worst possible way for Atari or/and the 7800...Got it.

You believe the NES was (practically) unstoppable no matter what...Got it.

 

I've never said the system wasn't physically capable, I'm just pondering because I'm too lazy to look it up! But I am STILL pretty confident that in hindsight the 1984 release of the 7800 wouldn't have stopped the NES. Atari was a corporate wreck, that is the primary reason I feel that way. Warner stock holders had a heart attack at the huge losses the consumer division was reporting. There is great debate as to how much money Jack Tramiel had to spend to market the 7800, not to mention staff. I personally can't imagine he had enough to compete with Nintendo. SEGA didn't. Advertising is not enough, Nintendo had agreements with Pepsi, produced television shows, and a horrible movie. Atari no longer had the Warner connection to do those as easily. I wish there was better information available on the NES licensing agreements, including just when they came about. Moreover, most of the big name 3rd party NES games didn't get created until several years into the life of the system. Nintendo wasn't exactly a runaway juggernaut at the time, but they still got them signed. What stopped Konami from porting Castlevania to the SMS in 1987? The NES was becoming big but hadn't blown up yet. They had immense success developing games for the Famicom. The licensing I expect was not USA/Europe only, but for the entire system. So no games on the Japanese SMS. With that in mind, given the near monoploy Nintendo had in Japan, the Japanese developers were very friendly/comfortable with Nintendo. Another reason/opinion that Atari wouldn't have gotten their games. The big games weren't created yet in 1984 or 1985. 1987 I would say, which was plenty of time for Nintendo to come in, establish themselves, and blast the market with their 1st party and 3rd party exclusive games.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Greg2600

[Trebor]

I've never said the system wasn't physically capable, I'm just pondering because I'm too lazy to look it up!

 

But not too lazy to respond to the thread, where again...

 

-You believe the NES was (practically) unstoppable no matter what...Got it.

-Your alternate universe scenarios play-out ultimately in (almost) the worst possible way for Atari or/and the 7800...Got it.

 

You hit 2 of the usual 3 with your last post - That ain't bad.

 

Expecting the next reply to nail all 3 of your points.

[7800]

How about if in in alternate universe the tables were turned. In other words, if Atari didn't sell the consumer division to Tramiel, and if they did some better market research (Japan), and blocked Nintendo from 3rd party games... Would the 7800 be capable of doing what Nintendo did in our universe?

[+Mitch]

Or if Atari has licensed the NES and sat on it then the 7800 would have been the king and the NES would not have existed outside of Japan.

 

Mitch

[Rhomaios]

Or if Atari has licensed the NES and sat on it then the 7800 would have been the king and the NES would not have existed outside of Japan.

 

Mitch

 

You don't think Sega's Master System would have done the 7800 in at that point?

[7800]

If the alternate universe Atari 7800 had a full release with a handful of unique games in 1984, it would have plenty of time to prepare for the upcoming Sega Master System in 1986... assuming Atari payed close attention to Japan's Mark III. Maybe Sega would have teamed up with Atari to release some of their arcade hits of the time, instead of releasing the SMS.

[Lynxpro]

 

You don't think Sega's Master System would have done the 7800 in at that point?

 

The Sega Master System failed in North America. The 7800 outsold it here. That's why Sega Japan/Sega of America wanted to dump Tonka and go with Atari Corp to market the Mega Drive in North America. The only reason why it didn't happen is because Tramiel wanted to also cover the European market - which Atari was strong in - but Sega wanted that to themselves because they did have some success with the SMS there. It was Atari Corp staff who named the console the "Genesis"; Sega of Japan wanted to name it the "Tomahawk".

 

As for alt.universe ponderings, most of us are speculating what had happened if Steve Ross wouldn't have broken up/sold Atari Inc's Consumer Division to Tramiel's Tramel Technology and had instead retained it and allowed James Morgan more time to turn the company around. A fully united Atari Inc. would've released the 7800 nationally for Christmas 1984. It would've revived the industry and Atari would've had full control of the market since Mattel and Coleco had already thrown in the towel. All of Atari's 1984+ arcade hits would've been on the 7800. The strong American computer games companies would've released for the 7800 instead of the NES as they did in our timeline. Nintendo would've ended up having to license their games for the 7800 just to get a slice of the non-Japanese games market worldwide. And Atari Inc would've followed the 7800 up with the high-end console based upon the Amiga chipset in 1985.

 

Sorry, but Atari Inc revived under Morgan's NATCO plan would've steamrolled Nintendo and beaten their management team with ROBs. Oh yeah, Atari experimented with interactive robots - courtesy of Nolan Bushnell's Androbot company - years before Nintendo copied them with ROB. Almost every good Nintendo idea was originally done by Atari. Represent.

[Rhomaios]

 

The Sega Master System failed in North America. The 7800 outsold it here. That's why Sega Japan/Sega of America wanted to dump Tonka and go with Atari Corp to market the Mega Drive in North America. The only reason why it didn't happen is because Tramiel wanted to also cover the European market - which Atari was strong in - but Sega wanted that to themselves because they did have some success with the SMS there. It was Atari Corp staff who named the console the "Genesis"; Sega of Japan wanted to name it the "Tomahawk".

 

Except that the Master System failed here due to the dominance of Nintendo. The only reason Atari did so well because of the name. If Atari stopped Nintendo, then Sega wouldn't have been locked out of third parties. The Master System was also far technically superior to the 7800, so it would have had that.

 

Hate to say it, but you gotta think these things more thoroughly rather than bowing down to your Atari nostalgia.

[7800]

It's entertaining to see the die hard Atari loyalists vs. the Nintendo/Sega loyalists... good stuff!

 

Can any one confirm that the Sega Master System is technologically better than the Atari 7800?

 

I actually think the SMS is better than Nintendo, I love it's audio better.

 

"Almost every good Nintendo idea was originally done by Atari"

 

Can anyone confirm this too.

Edited May 23, 2014 by 7800

[Thibr]

(Back to the original question)

 

"Is there any PROOF that the 7800 was test marketed in 1984?"

 

Everything was ready since 1984. Take a look at this cartridge prototype from my personal collection.

 

It's entertaining to see the die hard Atari loyalists vs. the Nintendo/Sega loyalists... good stuff!

 

Can any one confirm that the Sega Master System is technologically better than the Atari 7800?

 

I actually think the SMS is better than Nintendo, I love it's audio better.

 

"Almost every good Nintendo idea was originally done by Atari"

 

Can anyone confirm this too.

 

I do agree with you but I don't have anyhting "material" to proove that.

[Trebor]

It's entertaining to see the die hard Atari loyalists vs. the Nintendo/Sega loyalists... good stuff!

 

Personally, I love the NES and the 7800. I have a collection of ~150 NES games including the Power Pak. I made mentioned on a couple of occasions that NES Rygar is my favorite 8-bit game of all time. I play the entire game through at least once a year since the late 80's.

 

Regardless, it doesn't cloud reason, logic, and the possibility with a different set of circumstances, that the 7800 could have performed much better than it did, indeed could have been the phenomenal hit the NES was not only in the US but Europe as well, but lacked the support and development, that was made available to the NES; which a 1984 full blown release likely would have altered so many events very drastically. The 7800 was smothered in bad decisions which stifled its legacy.

 

Nonetheless, the potential is still there for more great games...From the original line-up of Alien Brigade, Ballblazer, Commando (Which is better than the NES version), Midnight Mutants to homebrew developments like Crystal Quest and Arcade re-makes like Donkey Kong PK/XM (Which bests not only the original Donkey Kong on the NES but the 'Original Edition' (With the half-assed pie level inclusion) as well). Not to forget the plethora of other PMP hits, and stuff from Kenfused, Synthpopalooza and others.

 

So many 'new' and 'old' devs looking good and hard at the system thanks to the support and tools from CPUWIZ and RevEng, that full potential may actually be tapped to some extent. Sure never to the fullest extent in quantity of games, but quality, depth, and scope for more games...The possibility is indeed evident.

 

The 'what if's' and 'NES is unstoppable' banter has been fun, but time to retire the topic for now...at least for me.

 

BTW, the Sega Master System buries both the NES and 7800 in terms of hardware; however, I am not a fan and don't even own one. The technical superiority over both the NES and 7800 is without dispute, IMHO.

 

Also, the GameGear is world's above the Gameboy. The Lynx though is a whole other story having the edge over the GameGear. Gameboy Vs Lynx...don't make me laugh...

 

But Nintendo locked in Tetris and the rest is history.

 

Oh, and I owned a Gameboy - never a Gamegear or a Lynx, sadly.

[7800]

I believe the Game Gear was essentially a miniature Sega Master System. I had one when it first came out, but sold it to raise money for the Super Nintendo... I wish I kept the Game Gear though, It probably would of needed a recap by now.

[Rhomaios]

It's entertaining to see the die hard Atari loyalists vs. the Nintendo/Sega loyalists... good stuff!

Hey now, I'm in neither camp! I'm just thinking through all the possibilities. I definitely play the 7800 way more than the Master System, but it's a solid system that also could have been had the dice rolled just a bit differently.

 

Can any one confirm that the Sega Master System is technologically better than the Atari 7800?

Well, you picked up on the big one, which is sound, but the Master System was faster as well, and if I'm not mistaken, more powerful. I'm not an expert in electronics, so I'll let a real one weigh in.

 

Also, something Lynxpro missed, Master System crushed 7800 worldwide, selling 3x+ more units. Without Nintendo's stranglehold, the Master System would have reaped the benefits of European development, and it would have showed here.

 

It's hard to say what would have happened, because anything could have happened, but it's too easy to miss some important stuff worldwide and its effects.

[Lynxpro]

 

Except that the Master System failed here due to the dominance of Nintendo. The only reason Atari did so well because of the name. If Atari stopped Nintendo, then Sega wouldn't have been locked out of third parties. The Master System was also far technically superior to the 7800, so it would have had that.

 

Hate to say it, but you gotta think these things more thoroughly rather than bowing down to your Atari nostalgia.

 

What the eff are you smoking? The 7800 did well in North America because it was not only compatible with the 2600 but also because it was a powerful system in its own right [even Electronic Gaming Monthly, when it was originally known as "Electronic Game Player" was signing the praises of the 7800 over the NES in early 1986]. Straight up, Atari Corp marketed it better than Tonka did with the Sega Master System. FACT. The 7800 outsold the Sega Master System in North America by almost 2 million consoles.

 

For Sega's sake, one would HOPE A CONSOLE - such as the Sega Master System - RELEASED IN 1986 WOULD BE SUPERIOR TO A CONSOLE ORIGINALLY RELEASED IN 1984 [such as the 7800]. But alas, although the SMS can display more colors on-screen at once without tricks and featured a better standard sound chip than the 7800, it cannot handle as many sprites on screen at once as the 7800 can. The Z80 is not superior to the 6502 as a CPU either. Sorry, try again. Facts, not nostalgia.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Lynxpro

[Lynxpro]

Hey now, I'm in neither camp! I'm just thinking through all the possibilities. I definitely play the 7800 way more than the Master System, but it's a solid system that also could have been had the dice rolled just a bit differently.

 

Well, you picked up on the big one, which is sound, but the Master System was faster as well, and if I'm not mistaken, more powerful. I'm not an expert in electronics, so I'll let a real one weigh in.

 

Also, something Lynxpro missed, Master System crushed 7800 worldwide, selling 3x+ more units. Without Nintendo's stranglehold, the Master System would have reaped the benefits of European development, and it would have showed here.

 

It's hard to say what would have happened, because anything could have happened, but it's too easy to miss some important stuff worldwide and its effects.

 

I didn't miss anything. I said NORTH AMERICA. The SMS sold 3x more units worldwide due not to Europe but mainly due to Brazil where it continued to sell long after it was discontinued elsewhere throughout the world. And had Atari Inc survived, the 7800 would've been released at the end of 1984/early 1985 in EUROPE as well. Just because Nintendo ultimately didn't do well in Europe with the NES doesn't mean Atari wouldn't have. Both in our timeline, Atari Inc and Atari Corp both did well throughout Europe. A dominant 7800 in Europe from 1985 on wouldn't have left much room for Sega to capitalize on with the SMS. And as I said previously, Atari Inc. would've followed the 7800 up with a high-end Amiga based game system in 1985/86 so it would've been the 2600 on the low end, the 7800 in the middle, and the Amiga/Mickey console at the high-end of the market. That would've meant no room for Nintendo or Sega. Sega would've been a third-party developer to Atari's consoles - just as they were for the 2600 and 5200 - while continuing to market their own consoles in Japan [as they did prior to the SMS in our time line].

Edited May 24, 2014 by Lynxpro

[Rhomaios]

 

I didn't miss anything. I said NORTH AMERICA. The SMS sold 3x more units worldwide due not to Europe but mainly due to Brazil where it continued to sell long after it was discontinued elsewhere throughout the world. And had Atari Inc survived, the 7800 would've been released at the end of 1984/early 1985 in EUROPE as well. Just because Nintendo ultimately didn't do well in Europe with the NES doesn't mean Atari wouldn't have. Both in our timeline, Atari Inc and Atari Corp both did well throughout Europe. A dominant 7800 in Europe from 1985 on wouldn't have left much room for Sega to capitalize on with the SMS. And as I said previously, Atari Inc. would've followed the 7800 up with a high-end Amiga based game system in 1985/86 so it would've been the 2600 on the low end, the 7800 in the middle, and the Amiga/Mickey console at the high-end of the market. That would've meant no room for Nintendo or Sega. Sega would've been a third-party developer to Atari's consoles - just as they were for the 2600 and 5200 - while continuing to market their own consoles in Japan [as they did prior to the SMS in our time line].

 

I have no nostalgia for the Master System, seeing as I never owned one as a kid, but nice try. It also sold twice as many units in Europe alone during its lifetime than did the 7800 ever. That's ignoring Brazil's after market. You should follow what I actually said about the effect Europe's contribution would have, but I don't think you'll reread it, considering you're dead set on Atari winning in your fantasy.