Is there any PROOF that the 7800 was test marketed in 1984?

[Lynxpro]

 

I have no nostalgia for the Master System, seeing as I never owned one as a kid, but nice try. It also sold twice as many units in Europe alone during its lifetime than did the 7800 ever. That's ignoring Brazil's after market. You should follow what I actually said about the effect Europe's contribution would have, but I don't think you'll reread it, considering you're dead set on Atari winning in your fantasy.

 

I happened to like the SMS, thank you very much. But point is, had Atari Inc. survived and the 7800 had rolled out in 1984 in North America and Europe, it wouldn't have left room for the SMS to have become a success.

[Andre81]

Atari should have released an ST compatible console in 1986. Basically an ST with just a cartridge port and no keyboard, drive, ports, monitor etc.

[DracIsBack]

 

Except that the Master System failed here due to the dominance of Nintendo. The only reason Atari did so well because of the name. If Atari stopped Nintendo, then Sega wouldn't have been locked out of third parties. The Master System was also far technically superior to the 7800, so it would have had that.

 

Hate to say it, but you gotta think these things more thoroughly rather than bowing down to your Atari nostalgia.

 

 

The reasons for the SMS's failure in North America are more than just "the dominance of Nintendo". It had serious distribution and marketing issues by way of Tonka that didn't work well, Nintendo or not. In North America, the library was almost exclusively Sega. All that great European content started to come out after Sega shut the door on it for the Genesis.

 

I have a Master System as well and love it. I have a healthy selection of North American and European games for it, as do many others here. No need to assume everyone here is Myopic toward one system or another.

[DracIsBack]

 

Can any one confirm that the Sega Master System is technologically better than the Atari 7800?

 

 

 

 

There's a discussion here about where it's strong and not

 

https://sites.google.com/site/atari7800wiki/7800-compared-to-the-sms

[DracIsBack]

Also, something Lynxpro missed, Master System crushed 7800 worldwide, selling 3x+ more units. Without Nintendo's stranglehold, the Master System would have reaped the benefits of European development, and it would have showed here.

 

It's hard to say what would have happened, because anything could have happened, but it's too easy to miss some important stuff worldwide and its effects.

 

One key thing you're not remembering is simply the timing.

 

The SMS in North America had a shelf life from about 1987 to 1992. It sputtered along, with Sega making almost all the games, with Tonka (badly) doing distribution and sales being anemic. Around the time of the Genesis, they quietly released the SMS II with Alex Kidd built in but it died on the vine. I was one of the few who bought it in North America when it was new.

 

While Sega pledged support for SMS by announcing that many of the hot titles for the Genesis were also coming for the Master System, the harsh reality was that they were hard to find as resellers started dropping the SMS in favour of the Genesis and Turbografx 16. I looked everywhere for Sonic the Hedgehog, Spider-Man and you could only get them by expensive special order.

 

The SMS was quietly shut down in North America without a wimper.

 

However ...

 

As it was dying in North America, it was beginning to take off in Europe. Nintendo's license restrictions were being beaten down by court challenges and so Nintendo licenses began to be able to make games for systems other than the NES.

 

What's interesting here is that the SMS's "almost a Game Gear" architecture really helped it. Companies would make games for the new Game Gear system in North America and then release Master System versions outside the US where it was starting to take off. The SMS is one of the few systems where generally a game being released in the PAL market has no problem working on a North American machine.

 

As such, as it was dying off in North America, games started coming out in droves in Europe. If I remember right, the tally of games released outside North America vs. games inside North America is three or four times higher.

 

But the SMS was really screwed over in North America by virtue of a bunch of things ... the time that it was released, the lack of games outside the Sega library (due to license restrictions), Tonka handling the distribution and Sega's unknown name.

[7800]

IMO, the one game that really demonstrates just the tip of the iceberg of power that the 7800 has... is Commando. Not just because of the pokey chip, but because of the overall gameplay and aesthetics... compare it to the NES version for a good laugh. LOL!

[ApolloBoy]

IMO, the one game that really demonstrates just the tip of the iceberg of power that the 7800 has... is Commando. Not just because of the pokey chip, but because of the overall gameplay and aesthetics... compare it to the NES version for a good laugh. LOL!

The NES version had the potential to be pretty good but it's so friggin' glitchy, what with enemies randomly disappearing and the occasional scrolling hiccup. Not sure if Commando is really the most demanding game on the 7800, but IMO it's one of the best ports of the game.

[Lynxpro]

The NES version had the potential to be pretty good but it's so friggin' glitchy, what with enemies randomly disappearing and the occasional scrolling hiccup. Not sure if Commando is really the most demanding game on the 7800, but IMO it's one of the best ports of the game.

Kung Fu Master should've been a title on the 7800 that outshined the NES version. The defeated villains should've been flung offscreen with ease by the Maria - matching the arcade version and the NES - considering 7800 Food Fight does the same effects.

[Lynxpro]

IMO, the one game that really demonstrates just the tip of the iceberg of power that the 7800 has... is Commando. Not just because of the pokey chip, but because of the overall gameplay and aesthetics... compare it to the NES version for a good laugh. LOL!

 

Probably the best [completed] work Sculptured Software did for Atari Corp, actually. I think John Skrutch was very proud of it, if I recall.

[Rhomaios]

As it was dying in North America, it was beginning to take off in Europe. Nintendo's license restrictions were being beaten down by court challenges and so Nintendo licenses began to be able to make games for systems other than the NES.

 

But if we're doing alternate reality without Nintendo's dominance, we really cannot take the license restrictions into account, otherwise we're back in the real world. The point, I thought, was asking what if without those license restrictions and superb marketing.

[7800]

It is reasonable to assume that even in an alternate universe... if Atari did all the things differently to insure the success of the 7800, then it would also have an effect on everything else... like the success' or failures of other video game companies. Isn't it presumptuous to assume that Nintendo and Sega would make the same decisions in an alternate universe?

 

"what if without those license restrictions and superb marketing."

 

I think it would also need better sound, whether implemented in every cart or in the system itself and a better controller, then the 7800 would be the dominating system.

Edited May 24, 2014 by 7800

[Lynxpro]

It is reasonable to assume that even in an alternate universe... if Atari did all the things differently to insure the success of the 7800, then it would also have an effect on everything else... like the success' or failures of other video game companies. Isn't it presumptuous to assume that Nintendo and Sega would make the same decisions in an alternate universe?

 

"what if without those license restrictions and superb marketing."

 

I think it would also need better sound, whether implemented in every cart or in the system itself and a better controller, then the 7800 would be the dominating system.

 

 

Atari Inc. was much more interested in using POKEYs in cartridges unlike Atari Corp which only used the chip on Ballblazer and Commando. Atari Inc would've ended up paying for GCC to complete the High Score Cartridge and development on the GUMBY audio chip which was also planned to be used in later 7800 games. Atari Advanced Research was also finishing up the AMY audio chip as well which could've been used in 7800 games and Atari Coin-Op arcade machines. In our real world, the AMY wasn't finished due to the Tramiel takeover. They wanted to use it in the ST but couldn't schedule it on their deadline. They then intended to use it in the 65XEM but the leftover engineers couldn't get it to work so that was scrapped and the tech was sold to a different company that improved it, planned to use it in keyboard synthesizers but then was sued by Atari Corp and allegedly all the plans and produced chips burnt up in a warehouse fire. Had Atari Inc survived, the AMY would've been finished because its engineers wouldn't have been laid off. And consequently in our time line, Atari Games ended up going with the YM2151 in many of their later arcade games due to the AMY not having been completed and put into production.

 

The Amiga 8-bit Paula audio chip could've also been used in 7800 games had Atari Inc survived in full. Granted, Atari Inc probably would've restricted it to the Amiga/Mickey advanced game system but it's still up for speculation.

[+wood_jl]

Is there any proof that the proof would be accepted by doubters, if the proof was that that the 7800 was test-marketed in 1984?

[Lynxpro]

Is there any proof that the proof would be accepted by doubters, if the proof was that that the 7800 was test-marketed in 1984?

 

Who watches the Watchmen?

[Prosystemsearch]

The 7800 indeed was test marketed in 1984. Warner communications never should have sold Atari Inc.'s assets and console division to commodore. What was so fricking special about commodore Inc. anyway. They should have instead sold Atari's assets and console division to either Paramount, Disney, Universal, or even Radioshack.

[DracIsBack]

Is there any proof that the proof would be accepted by doubters, if the proof was that that the 7800 was test-marketed in 1984?

 

Thanks for bringing it back. I definitiley have met people on Atariage who bought them in 1984.

[Lynxpro]

The 7800 indeed was test marketed in 1984. Warner communications never should have sold Atari Inc.'s assets and console division to commodore. What was so fricking special about commodore Inc. anyway. They should have instead sold Atari's assets and console division to either Paramount, Disney, Universal, or even Radioshack.

 

Philips wanted to buy Atari. However, they wanted to buy ALL of Atari and Warner wanted to retain a stake in the company just in case it was able to be revived. That's why Warner ended up owning 25% of Atari Corp/TTL, as well as 10% of Atari Games when it was sold to Namco [before being spun-off to the employees who then sold it back to Warner]. Philips wanted 100% ownership at that was a no-go for Steve Ross.

 

Warner, ahem Time Warner, did the same with Warner Music following Napster. They own 20% of it still even after selling it to Edgar Bronfman. I'm surprised they don't have a minority stake in AOL still.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Lynxpro

[Mord]

Atari should have released an ST compatible console in 1986. Basically an ST with just a cartridge port and no keyboard, drive, ports, monitor etc.

 

Because that kind of plan worked so well with the 5200. ^^

[+wood_jl]

 

Atari should have released an ST compatible console in 1986. Basically an ST with just a cartridge port and no keyboard, drive, ports, monitor etc.

Because that kind of plan worked so well with the 5200. ^^

 

Had the XE Game System been released in place of the 5200 (instead of in 1987) it would have been awesome. (Crazy hypothetical, but so is the ST Game System.)

[Lynxpro]

Had the XE Game System been released in place of the 5200 (instead of in 1987) it would have been awesome. (Crazy hypothetical, but so is the ST Game System.)

 

The 5200 was fine as it was; it just should've been compatible with the 2600 from the start with a 2600 cartridge slot added to the beefy case and motherboard.

 

Piracy issues alone - not just the rivalry between the Atari Computer and Video Game divisions within Atari Consumer - was reason enough to make the 5200 [slightly] incompatible with the 400/800.

 

The ST Game System would've basically been going back to the plans for the Mickey but without the Amiga custom chip set. I'm sure Curt and Marty's upcoming book will shed light on the subject, but the ST Game System probably was delayed due to the delay in getting the STe's enhanced chips done. It's a shame the STe's graphics chip didn't surpass the Amiga's. [in terms of color palette and displayable number of colors; the STe's scrolling features might've been better, I dunno].

[kiwilove]

Jumping in here... the Atari 7800 was never the successor to the 5200 - was not the quantum leap forward, as say the 5200 over the 2600 system.

 

When Electronic Games magazine previewed the 7800 (forgot the year - 1984? maybe..) it said the 7800 Joust graphics were amazing quality - but to date I have seen the 7800 hardware running where I am (Dunedin, New Zealand) - although I knew of someone devoted to Atari who had it. Sadly he died prematurely, so I never got around to seeing it...

 

Anyways - a Atari 520ST games console would have been financial suicide against the likes of the MegaDrive/Genesis and SNES hardware/software competition. That Sega did amazingly well in the 16-bit console wars - only shot themselves in the foot with their 32X and 32XCD upgrades - let down by their Dreamcast venture - and under rated Saturn.

The NES won out - not by it's hardware (although this was sufficiently competent) but by it's quality software - but the best of the best of it's software - bet out it's competition. But not all NES software was great - of course. Games have to be designed for it's target hardware in mind - and within it's target (this goes for any hardware system) it does it's job well. New consoles showcase new hardware - to new trends. Look at Streetfighter II - this revived the coin-op market - but what home systems could bring this coin-op home? Not any 8-bit system for sure - and only at the time - could 16-bit consoles do a decent job with it.

 

Atari failed to bring out decent hardware - at the time of the 7800. This hardware are not amazing at it's time (the magazine coverage lied - about it's potential etc) - as evidenced by it's sound quality, and lack of decent playfield graphics. Likewise the Jaguar was a failure too - it did not have a 64-bit quality to it overall. Tempest 2000 was great - but look at it's simple graphics. While Alien vs Predator had the great graphics - it's frame rate was just bearable - had it been a lot faster - it would have made a world of difference. Whereas the Playstation was able to deliver decent frame rates - and therefore won over all the competition.

 

The XEGame system was far too late when it debuted because it still had it's main graphics dating back to 1979/1980. And only now it's full graphics potential is being shown working - as in AtariBLAST! - which should hopefully make an appearance at the Atari Party in June... plug, plug... This game demo also runs on the Atari 400 (16k), Atari 5200 and extended memory Atari 400/800 etc computers using a flash cart - using the GTIA modes and Antic modes 2 and 4.

 

Harvey

[7800]

As far as home video game systems, Atari was the pioneer... ...and that's pretty much it.

Edited May 28, 2014 by 7800

[Lynxpro]

Jumping in here... the Atari 7800 was never the successor to the 5200 - was not the quantum leap forward, as say the 5200 over the 2600 system.

 

When Electronic Games magazine previewed the 7800 (forgot the year - 1984? maybe..) it said the 7800 Joust graphics were amazing quality - but to date I have seen the 7800 hardware running where I am (Dunedin, New Zealand) - although I knew of someone devoted to Atari who had it. Sadly he died prematurely, so I never got around to seeing it...

 

Anyways - a Atari 520ST games console would have been financial suicide against the likes of the MegaDrive/Genesis and SNES hardware/software competition. That Sega did amazingly well in the 16-bit console wars - only shot themselves in the foot with their 32X and 32XCD upgrades - let down by their Dreamcast venture - and under rated Saturn.

The NES won out - not by it's hardware (although this was sufficiently competent) but by it's quality software - but the best of the best of it's software - bet out it's competition. But not all NES software was great - of course. Games have to be designed for it's target hardware in mind - and within it's target (this goes for any hardware system) it does it's job well. New consoles showcase new hardware - to new trends. Look at Streetfighter II - this revived the coin-op market - but what home systems could bring this coin-op home? Not any 8-bit system for sure - and only at the time - could 16-bit consoles do a decent job with it.

 

Atari failed to bring out decent hardware - at the time of the 7800. This hardware are not amazing at it's time (the magazine coverage lied - about it's potential etc) - as evidenced by it's sound quality, and lack of decent playfield graphics. Likewise the Jaguar was a failure too - it did not have a 64-bit quality to it overall. Tempest 2000 was great - but look at it's simple graphics. While Alien vs Predator had the great graphics - it's frame rate was just bearable - had it been a lot faster - it would have made a world of difference. Whereas the Playstation was able to deliver decent frame rates - and therefore won over all the competition.

 

The XEGame system was far too late when it debuted because it still had it's main graphics dating back to 1979/1980. And only now it's full graphics potential is being shown working - as in AtariBLAST! - which should hopefully make an appearance at the Atari Party in June... plug, plug... This game demo also runs on the Atari 400 (16k), Atari 5200 and extended memory Atari 400/800 etc computers using a flash cart - using the GTIA modes and Antic modes 2 and 4.

 

Harvey

 

I have to disagree. The 7800 has incredible sprite generating power and it does have better graphics than the 5200. However, the cost reductions involved - reducing the standard system RAM and not including the POKEY - were big mistakes. The 7800 was more powerful than the NES and they were both designed during the same time. The SMS is more powerful in some regards but it was also developed AFTER the 7800 and NES.

 

AtariBlast would be cool to see at the Atari Party but I'd imagine it'll be via the Atari 8-bit computers because I don't think anyone bringing 5200s has an AtariMax SD Cartridge.

[7800]

"The 7800 was more powerful than the NES and they were both designed during the same time."

 

 

I could be wrong, but the Famicom, which is essentially an NES... was released in Japan in 1983 correct? So, one could assume that the development for the system could have been in 1982. What was the time period in which the Atari 7800 was being developed?

Edited May 28, 2014 by 7800

[ColecoGemini]

"The 7800 was more powerful than the NES and they were both designed during the same time."

 

 

I could be wrong, but the Famicom, which is essentially an NES... was released in Japan in 1983 correct? So, one could assume that the development for the system could have been in 1982. What was the time period in which the Atari 7800 was being developed?

The 7800 was ready to be released in 1984 originally, so it was developed 1982-83.