FOR SALE - PeST PS/2 MOUSE PCB's & kits

[exxosuk]

It looks like people using Yahoo email won't get the emails, I can only assume Yahoo has blacklisted my host's mail server

 

As to why you got the email 5 days after...... I think there was a order which came just before I upgraded my XP rig to win7. It took a few days to get up and running again, so probable that's why you got the email after the order I won't go into the technicals, but its all sorted now anyway

 

Thanks for those who ordered and didn't get a email from me All kits generally get sent out same day or next day anyway.

[GadgetUK]

For anyone interested I found the manual:-

 

www.retro.dial.pipex.com/pest/docs/pest_040.doc

[exxosuk]

Good point really, it has been on the official pest site for years but don't think there is a link to it anymore. Its a much more recent version.

 

http://pest.atari.org/pest_2013a.pdf

[Android8675]

Got mine last night, thanks for the quick ship, my wife collected the stamp so she thanks you too. Gonna put it together as soon as I find a mouse to rip apart.

[instream]

Are there still any kits left? If so I will order two kits via your webshop.

[exxosuk]

Strangely there is 2 kits left

 

If there is still some interest in them, I will make up some more, though I really have to buy the chips in tubes of 25 to keep costs down for me a bit.

[+mytek]

The last posting on this was a while back, and most of the website links seem to be dead, but hopefully exxosuk still checks in to AA from time to time.

 

Since this product appears to be no more, I was wondering if it would be possible to upload the PIC hex file for the PeST firmware, and put it into the public domain? Reason I ask is two-fold. One being that the code doesn't get lost and then becomes vaporware, and two I have an interest in incorporating this into a project I developed for the Atari 8-Bit (TransKey-II). My project is also in the public domain, so it isn't that I'm trying to make money off of someone else's development efforts.

 

- Michael

[exxosuk]

The last posting on this was a while back, and most of the website links seem to be dead, but hopefully exxosuk still checks in to AA from time to time.

 

Since this product appears to be no more, I was wondering if it would be possible to upload the PIC hex file for the PeST firmware, and put it into the public domain? Reason I ask is two-fold. One being that the code doesn't get lost and then becomes vaporware, and two I have an interest in incorporating this into a project I developed for the Atari 8-Bit (TransKey-II). My project is also in the public domain, so it isn't that I'm trying to make money off of someone else's development efforts.

 

- Michael

 

 

 

PeST Isn't actually "abandon-ware"

 

http://pest.atari.org

 

I stopped making them as nobody was buying them anymore in favour for "cheap ones" sold around the internet. People always go for "cheap" and it doesn't help fund future projects by myself. Though a lot of people seem not to care about supporting developments.

 

http://atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=24277&p=221385&hilit=pest#p223213

 

A chap funded a new batch some years ago, not sure if he still has any for sale or not now though.

 

http://atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=25003&p=230817&hilit=pest#p230817

 

I still have enough parts to probably make 100+ of them. Most people complain about "they cant find PS2 mice" and they want USB, they see USB on ebay, and go buy that, but only works with microsoft mice, hmm! It's all very old conversations now.

[+mytek]

PeST Isn't actually "abandon-ware"

 

That is good to know and what I needed to establish. As I said my interest in the firmware was not a 'for profit' situation, but it would likely require that the firmware be in the public domain if people need to flash their own chips.

 

Basically in the TransKey-II design I mentioned, there is already crude PS/2 mouse support incorporated in combination with PS/2 keyboard support targeted at the 8-Bit Atari computer. The main emphasis of that project really was about facilitating alternative transparent (no software driver) keyboard support, which it does a good job of. However the mouse support is questionable at best, since it must emulate key sends and is limited by the rate POKEY can accept and process a key. Essentially it is a very low resolution mouse, which isn't all that useful.

 

Anyway my thinking was to create a new board design having two independent PIC chips, one for keyboard processing (incorporating existing TK-II firmware), and the other for mouse processing (incorporating PeST or similar firmware). In order to keep things reasonably sized but still something easy for the DIY's to build, preferably the mouse chip should be something like the PIC16F505 which is in a 12 pin dip package. This would be an internal upgrade, so an on-board connector would have all the necessary joystick connections that would then be directly soldered to the appropriate signals on the Atari motherboard. There would have to be a enable/disable line which would tri-state those joystick I/O lines when a joystick instead of a mouse is desired (this could be done through the keyboard chip, having it respond to an ALT+key command to toggle the mouse chip's enable line). If PeST could be altered to work in this smaller footprint chip, and also have an enable line, it is likely people would also be more than happy to purchase such a chip if it came at a reasonable price. Would this be something you would be interested in doing?

 

 

 

I stopped making them as nobody was buying them anymore in favour for "cheap ones" sold around the internet. People always go for "cheap" and it doesn't help fund future projects by myself. Though a lot of people seem not to care about supporting developments.

 

Yes unfortunately this is the case much of the time. Hey I'm often guilty of trying to find things for as cheap as I can, but I'm also willing to pay good money for something that I know will do the job, make my life easier, and so much the better if it supports the small business man (or woman).

 

 

 

Most people complain about "they cant find PS2 mice" and they want USB...

 

Yeah isn't that the case a lot of time even though there is still plenty of new/old stock available for both PS/2 mice and keyboards at multiple places on-line . I can understand this if what you require specifically calls for a wireless device, but other than that, there are plenty of quality PS/2 devices to choose from (and likely better quality than much of the USB stuff that we see today). Oh well I guess that's what being human is all about.

 

Exxosuk thank you very much for responding so quickly to my inquiry. And if there is a way that we can work together or come to agreement on the project I suggested, that would be terrific. But I also understand if this doesn't hold any interest for you, and that you would rather put your energies into other endeavors.

 

- Michael

[exxosuk]

One thing to consider here before anything else, is that the PeST firmware is designed to work with the keyboard chip in the ST series, if you are going to be trying to interface with some other keyboard controller, then its likely not going to work. I've not looked into your project much yet, so not really sure what your target computer is actually going to be. It its not the normal keyboard controller chip (dont have numbers offhand with me) then it might not work. Possible smaller chips could be used, depends on chip mhz etc. That probably isn't to hard, though if it starts getting into huge code changes then its not something I have much time to do at the moment.

[+mytek]

One thing to consider here before anything else, is that the PeST firmware is designed to work with the keyboard chip in the ST series, if you are going to be trying to interface with some other keyboard controller, then its likely not going to work. I've not looked into your project much yet, so not really sure what your target computer is actually going to be. It its not the normal keyboard controller chip (dont have numbers offhand with me) then it might not work. Possible smaller chips could be used, depends on chip mhz etc. That probably isn't to hard, though if it starts getting into huge code changes then its not something I have much time to do at the moment.

 

The target application is meant to use a standard Atari ST mouse through the stock joystick port on an 8-Bit Atari computer.

 

Atari 8-Bit Joystick Pin-out

 

 

It has the same connector and pin-out as the Atari ST joystick/mouse port.

 

Atari ST Pin-out

 

So basically there are several GUI applications that have been written to utilize the ST mouse on an Atari 8-Bit, with a fairly sophisticated version in the works at: atari8.co.uk/gui/

 

 

In essence these new applications have a driver built-in to mimic the input requirements of an ST mouse. And since PeST needs to look like an Atari ST mouse, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.

 

The chip I suggested (PIC16F505) has an internal 4 Mhz clock, 1024 word Flash, 72 byte RAM, 12 bits of I/O, 14 pin package (PDIP or SMD). There are of course several other models utilizing this smaller 14 pin footprint with increased internal clock speed (8,16,32 Mhz) and more Flash memory space. This particular one is the cheapest in current production, but if it takes something more, that is not a problem. With 12 I/O lines, this seems like more than enough for what I am suggesting: ST mouse = 6, PS/2 mouse = 2, Enable = 1, Total = 9.

 

 

Currently Fujiman is building the TK-II boards for people that just don't have the skills to DIY, and/or programs the chips for people that can't justify buying a programming for building a handful of boards. He charges $10 for a pre-programmed chip. So this gets you in the ball park of what the 8-bitters are perfectly willing to spend (nobody choked on that price when he stated it ).

 

I read your post about respecting Aly's wishes, and I assure you full credit would always be given to you and her for this part of the project.

 

- Michael

Edited March 20, 2016 by mytekcontrols

[exxosuk]

What I would suggest if you get a PeST from the guy in germany and give it a try in your project before looking at things any future.

[+mytek]

What I would suggest if you get a PeST from the guy in germany and give it a try in your project before looking at things any future.

 

Good suggestion, will do .

 

Thank you for time thus far. If it does work properly (which I'm fairly certain it will), would you still consider making the change I suggested or perhaps provide me with the source so that I could do it myself? Then we could either have people buy the programmed chip from you, or perhaps the the guy in Germany and/or Fuji-Man. I would of course respect your copyright.

 

- Michael

[exxosuk]

If its just a different PIC and some minor code changes then I can do that and program the chips. Guy in germany brought a batch of something like 40 PeST's from me a while back, he doesn't make them himself. In fact I've always offered to build them in large batches at a reduced price. He was the only one willing to put cash up front to keep PeST in production. So assume he still has some in stock, I've not spoke to him personally for some time.

[+mytek]

If its just a different PIC and some minor code changes then I can do that and program the chips. Guy in germany brought a batch of something like 40 PeST's from me a while back, he doesn't make them himself. In fact I've always offered to build them in large batches at a reduced price. He was the only one willing to put cash up front to keep PeST in production. So assume he still has some in stock, I've not spoke to him personally for some time.

 

I sent Wolfgang an email to purchase a PeST. So hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll be able to test this on one of my A8 machines. Pretty sure others have already used these on the A8, but better safe than sorry. So what are your minimum requirements for the PeST firmware (Clock Speed, Flash, RAM, ect.)?

 

- Michael

[exxosuk]

 

I sent Wolfgang an email to purchase a PeST. So hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll be able to test this on one of my A8 machines. Pretty sure others have already used these on the A8, but better safe than sorry. So what are your minimum requirements for the PeST firmware (Clock Speed, Flash, RAM, ect.)?

 

- Michael

 

The chip I use is the PIC16F628A (IIRC) So if there is something which betters that then its not a problem. It does use some flash but not much, think just to store some bits for the settings. Not sure on RAM, been several years since I looked at the code or the chip. I think the 628A is pretty low spec compared to stuff these days anyway.

[+mytek]

The PIC16F628A still has some advantages. Because of being a bigger package (18 pin vs 14 pin), I think its a bit easier to stuff more memory inside the chip.

 

So looking at the main specs on this chip and what you mentioned about needing to store a few config bits, the PIC16F505 wouldn't work, because it has no EEPROM on board (the FLASH is really meant for the program to reside in). So the next thing up that does have EEPROM is the PIC16F630, but its program space (Flash) and RAM are about 50% less than the chip you are using. And it has one less timer, one less comparator, and no PWM (not sure if you use any of these in your code). Here's a quick comparison...

 

 

The chip that you presently use in the PeST

 

 

 

A possible replacement in a smaller package

 

 

Link to Data Sheet: PIC16F630

 

If this doesn't fit the bill, then I can look further. Probably the biggest concern would be the amount of program space available.

 

- Michael

 

P.S. Yes buying the pre-programmed chips from you would probably be the best way to go, and to make it worthwhile, ordering 10 or more at a time would make sense due to shipping.

[exxosuk]

It needs at least 2K of program memory. Pest program is over 2,000 lines of assembly code. Some internal flash is needed to store scaling speed settings for the PS2 mouse.

 

Also PeST uses ports for debug aswell, That code was never removed, so its not so simple to just use a smaller PIC, not without making a lot of code changes, so your stuck with the 628 I think. Its possible I could remove it, but its not something I have time to invest in currently as have that many projects on the go as it is.

 

Like I said, I would really try out PeST before even considering using it. Like I said before, it was designed for the ST keyboard chip, so you can't use PeST on a Amiga for example, it just won't work. So unless your using a ST keyboard chip, I doubt its going to work.

Edited March 20, 2016 by exxosuk

[+mytek]

It needs at least 2K of program memory. Pest program is over 2,000 lines of assembly code. Some internal flash is needed to store scaling speed settings for the PS2 mouse.

 

Also PeST uses ports for debug aswell, That code was never removed, so its not so simple to just use a smaller PIC, not without making a lot of code changes, so your stuck with the 628 I think. Its possible I could remove it, but its not something I have time to invest in currently as have that many projects on the go as it is.

 

Like I said, I would really try out PeST before even considering using it. Like I said before, it was designed for the ST keyboard chip, so you can't use PeST on a Amiga for example, it just won't work. So unless your using a ST keyboard chip, I doubt its going to work.

 

Ok 628 it is . So the only change would be to have one of the extra pins act like a chip enable. Or in other words when that pin is low, the PeST works as it is suppose to. And when its high (+5v), all of the pins connected to the joystick/mouse port should change to inputs (floating -- and thus not interfering with a real joystick being plugged into the same port). I can sign an NDA if you are willing to let me use the PIC source, and then make the changes myself, if you don't feel that you have the desire or time to do so yourself. And I would then pass this code back to you, with you deciding how you wish to distribute and sell this in a pre-programmed chip. In fact I would actually prefer this, since I could go in and minimize the pin count requirements myself and tailor it to an appropriate PIC for my needs.

 

And yes I'll be testing the PeST once I get my own. However I do know that ST Mice have been in use on the A8 machines for quite sometime now, and here is an excerpt from the GUI project stating the compatibility as such...

 

Atari 8-bit Graphical OS

 

...separate versions are provided for use with Atari ST and Commodore Amiga mice.

 

The chip that interfaces to both the keyboard and the joystick/mouse ports in the ST is an HD6301 MCU, which is similar in some ways to a PIC MCU, having general purpose I/O ports, serial communication, a timer, ROM and RAM. So in essence they run a program in that MCU that scans the I/O ports and interprets and organizes that data for the rest of the system to use. On the Atari 8-Bit a R6520 PIA chip is used instead which has some general purpose I/O and programmable interrupts. So in this case it is the main CPU (6502) that is responsible for interpreting the data coming in from the Joysticks. So although the ST's HD6301 pre-processes joystick/mouse data, thus relieving the main 68000 CPU from handling this low level stuff, on the A8 the main CPU has to do this and just has to work a little harder at it. So by intercepting what is coming out of the R6520 prior to the A8's normal OS processing, and then inserting your own unique driver code, a joystick port can now read either as an Amiga or Atari ST mouse and then use it for whatever the program dictates. The key to this is that the ST and A8 have the same connector, and essentially the same pin-outs for data and power on these ports. Only the software needs to be changed to read a joystick port as a mouse port. In fact if you wanted to take it a step further, a PS/2 mouse could theoretically be plugged directly into a joystick port on an A8 and with the right software, interpreted directly without the need for a PIC chip in-between. Of course that would be very time consuming for the 6502 CPU, leaving less time for the program. That is why it's better to pre-process it with the PIC and turn it into simple quadrature signals instead.

 

So if the PeST makes a PS/2 mouse look like an ST mouse (which it appears to), then there is no reason that I can think of that this won't work.

 

But not to beat a dead horse, I will test this just to be absolutely sure .

 

Thank you for your concerns and also being willing to consider what I am attempting to do.

 

- Michael

[exxosuk]

If you have time to to lots of changes to source code, why not just use one of the freeware solutions and adapt that ?

[+mytek]

If you have time to to lots of changes to source code, why not just use one of the freeware solutions and adapt that ?

Yes I can do that, although it was my understanding that the code that Alison wrote was much more refined. So you're probably referring to Tom Kirk's code or one of its derivatives? And yes I have looked into that as well. Any particular recommendations on which freeware version works best out of the box?

 

- Michael

[exxosuk]

Yes I can do that, although it was my understanding that the code that Alison wrote was much more refined. So you're probably referring to Tom Kirk's code or one of its derivatives? And yes I have looked into that as well. Any particular recommendations on which freeware version works best out of the box?

 

- Michael

 

I can't really comment for other peoples code , PeST code was created as we didn't like anyone else's code. That was work done over 12 years ago.

[+mytek]

I can't really comment for other peoples code , PeST code was created as we didn't like anyone else's code. That was work done over 12 years ago.

 

Wow 12 years ago! Time just keeps ticking by...

 

Well I think I need to reconsider my options, and then move on. But before I do, can you at least tell me what it was that you didn't like about other people's code? I know it's been a long time ago, and the memories faded, but it would be a great help to me to know what wasn't good and what you guys did differently.

 

And thank you ever so much for the time you have been willing to spend on our discussions revo!ving around all this mouse stuff.

 

- Michael

[exxosuk]

I didn't test other code myself, aly did that. Probably some mix of "didn't work very well" with god knows what. I was busy designing the PCB at the time, aly was testing code out. Probably a case of other peoples code is "ok but could be a lot better" kinda thing. So we decided to program new code from the bottom up. I think aly updated the code some years later, possible to work on Amiga I think, Though we did have a lot of bandwidth limits on the keyboard chip, I don't know how the later code operated as she was always tweaking something. I don't think she ever got to a final release version. I probably have emails to what she was working on, but about a year before aly died, I had lost my job and my house and my partner pretty much all in the same week, so I wasn't really active with anything for some time and didn't keep in touch much with aly towards the end (or anyone for that matter). I think I know what she updated and I could make the changes myself (though aly was a lot quicker at pic code than me) , but with no interest in the PeST's for some years now, there isn't any point spending the time on it anymore. Really it would boil down to using it on the Amiga, but again, cheap versions out there, wouldn't be any use in making the adoptions. Most of my free time goes on my hardware kits, though I haven't had chance for about 4 months to even work on my CPU boosters (busy of late rescuing websites and such currently).

[+mytek]

I didn't test other code myself, aly did that. Probably some mix of "didn't work very well" with god knows what. I was busy designing the PCB at the time, aly was testing code out. Probably a case of other peoples code is "ok but could be a lot better" kinda thing. So we decided to program new code from the bottom up. I think aly updated the code some years later, possible to work on Amiga I think, Though we did have a lot of bandwidth limits on the keyboard chip, I don't know how the later code operated as she was always tweaking something. I don't think she ever got to a final release version. I probably have emails to what she was working on, but about a year before aly died, I had lost my job and my house and my partner pretty much all in the same week, so I wasn't really active with anything for some time and didn't keep in touch much with aly towards the end (or anyone for that matter). I think I know what she updated and I could make the changes myself (though aly was a lot quicker at pic code than me) , but with no interest in the PeST's for some years now, there isn't any point spending the time on it anymore. Really it would boil down to using it on the Amiga, but again, cheap versions out there, wouldn't be any use in making the adoptions. Most of my free time goes on my hardware kits, though I haven't had chance for about 4 months to even work on my CPU boosters (busy of late rescuing websites and such currently).

 

Yeah I kinda feel the same way about using other people's code, unless I trust that the person that did it was very picky about getting it right, which from what you said and what I saw on her old website suggests that Aly was very good at coding. And I do understand that you made a promise to her, and I really wouldn't want to pressure you to release her code into the wild as public domain which she was apparently very much against. So with that said, I have made a decision, and that is to code this thing from scratch like I did for the PS/2-to-Atari keyboard code on TK-II. Actually the more I thought about this, the more it made sense, because I already have reliable code written to initialize and poll the PS/2 mouse, so I would just need to translate that to quadrature output to simulate the ST mouse's rotary encoder outputs. And since the newer mice put out a higher resolution signal, have a way to divide that down into a couple of different resolutions to better match what an ST mouse would do. Piece of cake . Well maybe not that easy .

 

So tell me about this CPU booster. What is it? And it sounds like you do website design or IT services? Do you have a current website that I can see some of your work at?

 

Here's my Atari hobby site: AtariBits.com Pretty much all the TransKey and other Atari related projects will end up here eventually.

 

Take care,

 

- Michael