Jaguar Bomberman

[+Sauron]

 

I agree that a 2D BM with responsive controls is the way to go like your suggestion, but we're talking about something that was designed in 1994 on what was suppose to be 64 bit hardware.

 

Atari really shot themselves in the foot with the whole "64-bit" thing. Considering the timing of it's release, the Jag, while it really is a "64-bit" system, has nowhere near the power of a PSX or N64. Think of the Jag as a stepping stone between the Genesis/SNES era and PSX/N64 era. While it could probably do a basic 3D play area, it would probably look like ass compared to what its contemporary 32 bit systems were capable of pulling off. In short, I'm willing to bet that any version of Bomberman that was in development for the Jag back in the day was probably 2D, or pseudo-3D at best.

[D.Daniels]

 

Atari really shot themselves in the foot with the whole "64-bit" thing. Considering the timing of it's release, the Jag, while it really is a "64-bit" system, has nowhere near the power of a PSX or N64. Think of the Jag as a stepping stone between the Genesis/SNES era and PSX/N64 era. While it could probably do a basic 3D play area, it would probably look like ass compared to what its contemporary 32 bit systems were capable of pulling off. In short, I'm willing to bet that any version of Bomberman that was in development for the Jag back in the day was probably 2D, or pseudo-3D at best.

 

Yeah that 64 bit thing was way over hyped, AVP and Doom really impressed, but I suppose they were more 32 bit than 64. I also agree a 3D BM on Jag would look like cats vomit. I was defensive more about the lack of vision with the Jaguars games as the last thing I feel it needed was anymore games that sat to nicely with the 16 bit machines. But what you said makes sense it was more a bridge between the 16 and 32 era. Yet Atari called it 64 bit lol

[+Sauron]

 

Yeah that 64 bit thing was way over hyped, AVP and Doom really impressed, but I suppose they were more 32 bit than 64. I also agree a 3D BM on Jag would look like cats vomit. I was defensive more about the lack of vision with the Jaguars games as the last thing I feel it needed was anymore games that sat to nicely with the 16 bit machines. But what you said makes sense it was more a bridge between the 16 and 32 era. Yet Atari called it 64 bit lol

 

The Jag can really be considered a 64 bit system, but that has little meaning in regards to its overall power. Ultimately, the "bits" of a system is meaningless, especially when it comes to a gaming system. DEC had powerful 64 bit workstation processors that debuted around the time of the Jaguar, yet their overall power was easily eclipsed by cheapo 32 bit home systems just a few years later. As powerful as a DEC Alpha was, I wouldn't even bother pitting it against a Pentium IV.

[D.Daniels]

 

The Jag can really be considered a 64 bit system, but that has little meaning in regards to its overall power. Ultimately, the "bits" of a system is meaningless, especially when it comes to a gaming system. DEC had powerful 64 bit workstation processors that debuted around the time of the Jaguar, yet their overall power was easily eclipsed by cheapo 32 bit home systems just a few years later. As powerful as a DEC Alpha was, I wouldn't even bother pitting it against a Pentium IV.

 

oh I get you, I suppose it is like the PC Engine, it was 8 bit but looked and competed with the 16 bit era (SF2), I always think of bits as power because being a kid in 80's/90's that's all we were told all the time lol

Edited February 1, 2017 by D.Daniels

[BillLoguidice]

Although we've talked the bitness subject to death, calling itself 64-bit or not having true 64-bit software really wasn't the Jaguar's issue in my opinion. Most N64 software was 32-bit, because 64-bit was too resource intensive, but no one called out the N64's power because it was able to demonstrate its power in a convincing manner. Atari had a hard time backing up the 64-bit concept with software that looked like it was a significant generational leap. They could have called it a 32-bit system and still run into the same problems.

[BillLoguidice]

 

oh I get you, I suppose it is like the PC Engine, it was 8 bit but looked and competed with the 16 bit era (SF2), I always think of bits as power because being a kid in 80's/90's that's all we were told all the time lol

 

That is a good example. Although it was indeed limited in some ways by its 8-bit architecture, it was competitive enough (and sometimes better) with both the Genesis and SNES in enough other areas to usually compensate. Still, it doesn't seem to do most systems any favors being caught in-between generations (for instance, in the PC Engine's case, it's two action buttons and limited use of its later six button pad option).

[VladR]

The jag could do a 3D arena like N64 (cut out the single player levels) but use rendered sprites like in Mario Kart 64, to resolve any hardware or frame rate drop issues.

Look, I'm the first to shout "do the 3D" - but not for Bomberman ! The aliasing of the maze would be just brutal, as you have only literally couple pixels for each block. Forget texturing, this would look disgusting even with flatshading. Pixels shimmering all over screen. And unlike a racing game, where your eye just 'does the math' and fixed majority of glitches, this glitch is 100% in your face all the time.

 

To get next-gen Bomberman, Jaguar could do it in HiRes 2D, but use interlaced resolution - e.g. 1400x480 (NTSC) or 1382x576 (PAL).

This would look awesome. Keep the grid 2D, but have additional pixel detail. This would look nice even on 60" TV !

 

Jag, for sure, has enough bandwidth for that 2D resolution at 256 colors (it's basically, just OP doing the heavy lifting). I haven't ever seen interlaced res on CRT, so it would probably suck there, but from what I hear on LCD/Plasmas, it's alright (as there's no flicker, obviously).

[VladR]

The Jag ain't the N64. If the 3D arena meant cutting down on framerate or responsiveness, then they'd be much better off sticking with 2D. Again, for a game like Bomberman, nobody cares about the graphics as much as about how well it plays.

Actually, even if the framerate of 3D arena would be, say, 10 fps, the input and 2D players can still be refreshed at 60 fps on jag.

 

How ? That's how I was doing it in my H.E.R.O., before it was 60 fps:

 

You have an OP List:

1. Framebuffer for 3D arena (you update the pointer only once you are done rendering)

2. Player 1: 2D bitmap

3. Player 2: 2D bitmap

4. Player 3: 2D bitmap

5. Player 4: 2D bitmap

 

During vblank, you update the screen xpos,ypos for all 4 players (based on input), so they are as responsive as possible (e.g. 60 fps).

 

And since the 3D arena does not really move more than couple pixels, even if it was just 10 fps, you could not really notice it.

 

It would still be disgustingly pixely a shimmery, though ! Sorta doable at higher resolutions, say 700x480 would be better, but I'm pretty sure it would still look disgusting.

[D.Daniels]

 

That is a good example. Although it was indeed limited in some ways by its 8-bit architecture, it was competitive enough (and sometimes better) with both the Genesis and SNES in enough other areas to usually compensate. Still, it doesn't seem to do most systems any favors being caught in-between generations (for instance, in the PC Engine's case, it's two action buttons and limited use of its later six button pad option).

 

So in a sense the Jag would be excellent for say shoot em up's as its 64 bit power means it can handle lots of information. So we could say the Jag was a untapped 2D beast. I wonder how a Street Fighter would have been or a Metal Slug would have been.

Edited February 1, 2017 by D.Daniels

[D.Daniels]

Actually, even if the framerate of 3D arena would be, say, 10 fps, the input and 2D players can still be refreshed at 60 fps on jag.

 

How ? That's how I was doing it in my H.E.R.O., before it was 60 fps:

 

You have an OP List:

1. Framebuffer for 3D arena (you update the pointer only once you are done rendering)

2. Player 1: 2D bitmap

3. Player 2: 2D bitmap

4. Player 3: 2D bitmap

5. Player 4: 2D bitmap

 

During vblank, you update the screen xpos,ypos for all 4 players (based on input), so they are as responsive as possible (e.g. 60 fps).

 

And since the 3D arena does not really move more than couple pixels, even if it was just 10 fps, you could not really notice it.

 

It would still be disgustingly pixely a shimmery, though ! Sorta doable at higher resolutions, say 700x480 would be better, but I'm pretty sure it would still look disgusting.

 

The fire's burned and I probably should quit, but how many players do you think maybe be possible on a 2D Jag BM, the Saturn supported up to 8 or 10. And an Atari head at the time claimed the Jag was just as powerful as the Saturn.

Edited February 1, 2017 by D.Daniels

[VladR]

 

The fire's burned and I probably should quit, but how many players do you think maybe be possible on a 2D Jag BM, the Saturn supported up to 8 or 10. And an Atari head at the time claimed the Jag was just as powerful as the Saturn.

If somebody could please link that famous demo YT video showing about a thousand (or was it more ? I don't recall now) sprites ? That should sufficiently answer your question about 8-10 sprites.

 

I understand that quarter a century ago, there was no access to internet, so people had to believe the hype, unless they or their friend actually bought the damn console.

 

But in 2017 ? We know the situation Atari was in, hence the desperate '64-bit' media strategy for the sinking titanic...

 

I don't want to start a flamewar of Saturn vs Jaguar - but just please spend 10 minutes on wikipedia and check the 8 processors Saturn has. Then switch to the tab with Jaguar's HW specifications.

Of course, it was almost equally as hard for Saturn devs to extract the real power, but at least their HW was partially built around texturing, so for a developer it was easier to come up with same result (as on jag).

[sd32]

 

The fire's burned and I probably should quit, but how many players do you think maybe be possible on a 2D Jag BM, the Saturn supported up to 8 or 10. And an Atari head at the time claimed the Jag was just as powerful as the Saturn.

 

Even Factor 5 cancelled version of Bomberman for Sega Genesis was 8 players, so i dont think thats an ideal way to compare the systems power.

[sd32]

 

That is a good example. Although it was indeed limited in some ways by its 8-bit architecture, it was competitive enough (and sometimes better) with both the Genesis and SNES in enough other areas to usually compensate. Still, it doesn't seem to do most systems any favors being caught in-between generations (for instance, in the PC Engine's case, it's two action buttons and limited use of its later six button pad option).

CPU is important, but the GPU is what gives a system its personality

 

I dont think the 8-bit CPU was an issue on the PCE at all, after all, its better than the "mighty" SNES CPU, which is also more 8-bit than 16-bit.The PCE big shortcoming compared with the Genesis, was that it only had one background plane, and less work RAM. That had little to do with being 8-bit. Understandable since it came out a year before the Genesis and 3 years before the SNES. Both issues were fixed with the Supergrafx, and there was no need to improve the CPU.

 

About the controller lack of buttons, the Genesis faced the same issue after all. It was just that the popular type of games on PCE, shooters and JRPGs, really didnt need that many buttons. Basically only fighting games really needed the 6 button pad. The great PCE games like Dracula X, Ys 4, Gate of Thunder, Winds of Thunder, Tengai Makyou 2, etc wouldnt be any better with 6 buttons. And they play as good as any SNES counterpart.

 

Lets remember that in the PCE case, it was great for it to be caught between generations, since thats one of the reasons it managed to steal a nice chunk of the marketplace from the Nintendo Famicom, and it was well stablished once the Super Famicom appeared. It got supported for about 10 years.

[D.Daniels]

If somebody could please link that famous demo YT video showing about a thousand (or was it more ? I don't recall now) sprites ? That should sufficiently answer your question about 8-10 sprites.

 

I understand that quarter a century ago, there was no access to internet, so people had to believe the hype, unless they or their friend actually bought the damn console.

 

But in 2017 ? We know the situation Atari was in, hence the desperate '64-bit' media strategy for the sinking titanic...

 

I don't want to start a flamewar of Saturn vs Jaguar - but just please spend 10 minutes on wikipedia and check the 8 processors Saturn has. Then switch to the tab with Jaguar's HW specifications.

Of course, it was almost equally as hard for Saturn devs to extract the real power, but at least their HW was partially built around texturing, so for a developer it was easier to come up with same result (as on jag).

 

fair enough dude, sorry, I was being a thoughtless nob head but thanks for the information

Edited February 2, 2017 by D.Daniels

[VladR]

fair enough dude, sorry, I was being a thoughtless nob head but thanks for the information

No worries. Just one more clarification: While drawing 8 bitmaps of 8 players is allmost zero performance impact via Object Processor, the same cannot be said about 8 CPU opponents. The AI of 8 units would be pretty hard to pull off even on GPU, as the FSM State machine for each unit must handle pathfinding, collision detection, adjustment to strategy once an item is picked by the player and making decisions between defense and offense. If you multiply that by 8, it's going to be hard to pull it off even on GPU. You can't run A* pathfinding for 8 units at 60 fps. The GPU would choke on that alone.

 

So, while 8 players is easy, 8 AI units is basically impossible.

[D.Daniels]

No worries. Just one more clarification: While drawing 8 bitmaps of 8 players is allmost zero performance impact via Object Processor, the same cannot be said about 8 CPU opponents. The AI of 8 units would be pretty hard to pull off even on GPU, as the FSM State machine for each unit must handle pathfinding, collision detection, adjustment to strategy once an item is picked by the player and making decisions between defense and offense. If you multiply that by 8, it's going to be hard to pull it off even on GPU. You can't run A* pathfinding for 8 units at 60 fps. The GPU would choke on that alone.

 

So, while 8 players is easy, 8 AI units is basically impossible.

 

got you, that makes a lot of sense, I'm not technical minded but yeah I can see 8 CPU AI players and everything else would be an overload on the hardware. That would explain why a lot of 8 bit beat em up ports had so few enemies on screen compared to arcade.

[VladR]

Well, there are lots of ways one can cheat in AI:

- you drop A* and Implement a simp!er pathfinding

- you do not update 60 frames per second, but just every 10th frame or even less often - as they move through 2D grid, so if it takes one second to move between two points on grid, then you run AI only once per second

 

And, it's easy to make AI that will instantly kill you. But very hard to Implement AI that will challenge player...

[BillLoguidice]

 

So in a sense the Jag would be excellent for say shoot em up's as its 64 bit power means it can handle lots of information. So we could say the Jag was a untapped 2D beast. I wonder how a Street Fighter would have been or a Metal Slug would have been.

 

I don't know. There were no super powerful/mind boggling 2D games on the Jaguar that I can think of to compare against what we got on say, the Neo Geo, or Saturn. The former had multiple advantages, including generous cartridge sizes, and the latter had the benefit of newer technology and the ability to use memory expansion cartridges as needed to store extra frames of animation, among other things. I think the Jaguar has notable limits in those areas, so going all out on a 2D game might not be possible given the restrictions in the other areas of its architecture.

[D.Daniels]

Well, there are lots of ways one can cheat in AI:

- you drop A* and Implement a simp!er pathfinding

- you do not update 60 frames per second, but just every 10th frame or even less often - as they move through 2D grid, so if it takes one second to move between two points on grid, then you run AI only once per second

 

And, it's easy to make AI that will instantly kill you. But very hard to Implement AI that will challenge player...

 

reminds me of DD on the ST, sometimes the enemies seem like zombies then they wake up, but I can see there's an art to programming, because I'm thick I have to work out ways around problems in mmf2 using counters and events etc, so I kind of understand how to a higher degree, even programmers sometimes have to do the same thing, on a more impressive level

[D.Daniels]

 

I don't know. There were no super powerful/mind boggling 2D games on the Jaguar that I can think of to compare against what we got on say, the Neo Geo, or Saturn. The former had multiple advantages, including generous cartridge sizes, and the latter had the benefit of newer technology and the ability to use memory expansion cartridges as needed to store extra frames of animation, among other things. I think the Jaguar has notable limits in those areas, so going all out on a 2D game might not be possible given the restrictions in the other areas of its architecture.

 

no that's true, I was just thinking the Jag wasn't that far behind the 3DO and that had an almost arcade perfect Super SF2, so maybe given something like Rayman and Super Burnout,maybe the Jag would have been able to have an almost perfect port of say Chase HQ or SF2. My suggestion of Metal Slug was pushing it, as even the Neo Geo has slowdown with that.

Edited February 3, 2017 by D.Daniels

[sd32]

 

I don't know. There were no super powerful/mind boggling 2D games on the Jaguar that I can think of to compare against what we got on say, the Neo Geo, or Saturn. The former had multiple advantages, including generous cartridge sizes, and the latter had the benefit of newer technology and the ability to use memory expansion cartridges as needed to store extra frames of animation, among other things. I think the Jaguar has notable limits in those areas, so going all out on a 2D game might not be possible given the restrictions in the other areas of its architecture.

I agree Bill, the Jags lack of quality software and early demise rear its ugly head when we try to compare their complete 2D libraries.

 

But if we compare similar early games on each system we get: Rayman with Raguy, Super Burnout with Riding Hero, NBA JAM with Street Hoops, Ghost Pilots with Raiden. We can add to that the Native demo to compare with Last Resort. They compare favorably IMHO. You cant do those games on Neo Geo as well as the Jaguar did them since they play to the Jags strengths. Just as the Jaguar would struggle with Neo Geo games only at around its 3rd generation of software, but only due to how big ROMs were getting.

 

Massive amounts of memory is important but there are other 2d assets that should be considered on a comparison. Both build their display only with sprites even backgrounds since they dont have background layers, and i cant say which can display more sprites. But the Jaguar has an edge over the Neo Geo in color, sprite/background scaling and rotation, transparency, lightning or any crazy software effects. Neo Geo fixed resolution can also be problematic i hear.

 

Not only did Neo Geo benefit from the huge ROMs, but also top notch game designers, lots of years coders got to master the hardware, as well as some amazing 2d artists. Thank god for that, i love its library of games. 2d heaven.

 

Saturn is something else, though. That VDP2 can do some crazy stuff that neither Neo Geo and Jaguar or even Playstation have an answer to. Add to that RAM upgrades and you have a 2d beast that i feel didnt get enough support on that area. Sure we got a ton of 2d fighters, shooters and jrpgs but i wish it got more exclusive stuff and more support on other 2d genres.

[sd32]

 

no that's true, I was just thinking the Jag wasn't that far behind the 3DO and that had an almost arcade perfect Super SF2, so maybe given something like Rayman and Super Burnout,maybe the Jag would have been able to have an almost perfect port of say Chase HQ or SF2. My suggestion of Metal Slug was pushing it, as even the Neo Geo has slowdown with that.

 

I think the ROM/RAM size issue hits the Jaguar harder when it comes to fighting games, since you have to load all the graphic data for the match, and that it...you dont get the chance to load more data as you would do on a game were the level progresses, like and action game or a platformer. Sothe King of Fighter series, Last Blade 2, Mark of the Wolves, etc would be very dificult to port due to the lots of memory animations take, "not" necesarely due to raw 2d power.

 

Also, after witnessing the Neo Geos 1rst/2nd generation game Ciber Slip, i also wouldnt believe the Neo was capable of doing Metal Slug... but it did, what a diference!. Thats what years of experience coding for a system do, and of course bigger ROMs. Jag only got 2 gens of software if that.

 

Had the Jaguar been a success, and gotten N64 size carts later on, an since on a game like Metal Slug, you could have a quick load at say in the middle of a level or whenever necesary, i think Metal Slug wouldnt have been imposible. After all the Game Boy Advance got some pretty decent exclusive Metal Slug (even King of Fighters!) games, and it had less RAM than the Jaguar. It had quiet a bit of stuff going on at once for its time, but nothing extraordinary for it time. Again i feel it was more about having tons of memory for animations and background variety (amazing artwork again), than it was about extraordinary 2d action (not to say it wasnt impressive for its time).

 

When systems get enough support, early generation titles make later generation stuff seem impossible to do on that same system in comparison. Jaguar didnt get that chance.

 

Back to Bomberman. Am i the only one who thinks the Neo Geo Bomberman looks ugly. I was very dissapointed by its looks. Must be the style, kinda looks prerenderes. Plays pretty well though. But i hope this Jaguar proto looked nothing like that.

Edited February 3, 2017 by sd32

[+madman]

This has been covered multiple times, but "bigger ROMs" are not the sole reason the Neo Geo had such impressive games. It was an extremely well-designed piece of hardware that probably could've survived commercially a few more years if not for piracy and the overall downfall of arcades.

 

Also, there's no game called Ciber Slip. There is, however, Cyber Lip.

[D.Daniels]

 

I think the ROM/RAM size issue hits the Jaguar harder when it comes to fighting games, since you have to load all the graphic data for the match, and that it...you dont get the chance to load more data as you would do on a game were the level progresses, like and action game or a platformer. Sothe King of Fighter series, Last Blade 2, Mark of the Wolves, etc would be very dificult to port due to the lots of memory animations take, "not" necesarely due to raw 2d power.

 

Also, after witnessing the Neo Geos 1rst/2nd generation game Ciber Slip, i also wouldnt believe the Neo was capable of doing Metal Slug... but it did, what a diference!. Thats what years of experience coding for a system do, and of course bigger ROMs. Jag only got 2 gens of software if that.

 

Had the Jaguar been a success, and gotten N64 size carts later on, an since on a game like Metal Slug, you could have a quick load at say in the middle of a level or whenever necesary, i think Metal Slug wouldnt have been imposible. After all the Game Boy Advance got some pretty decent exclusive Metal Slug (even King of Fighters!) games, and it had less RAM than the Jaguar. It had quiet a bit of stuff going on at once for its time, but nothing extraordinary for it time. Again i feel it was more about having tons of memory for animations and background variety (amazing artwork again), than it was about extraordinary 2d action (not to say it wasnt impressive for its time).

 

When systems get enough support, early generation titles make later generation stuff seem impossible to do on that same system in comparison. Jaguar didnt get that chance.

 

Back to Bomberman. Am i the only one who thinks the Neo Geo Bomberman looks ugly. I was very dissapointed by its looks. Must be the style, kinda looks prerenderes. Plays pretty well though. But i hope this Jaguar proto looked nothing like that.

 

The Neo Geo version went for that 90s rendered look, rather than a more usual cartoon style. It wasn't very good at all, even know I quite like the rendered look, its very out of place for BM and probably inspired by Donkey Kong Country craze.

 

Thanks for explaining the memory restraints of the Jag. Maybe the Jag CD may have had a chance then, but the cart's would have choppy reduced animation. And it wouldn't have worked with games like the very lush fighters that started to come out in the mid 90's.

Edited February 3, 2017 by D.Daniels

[+madman]

The Jag CD would've been even worse than carts as the Jag CD has no extra memory and takes up some of the Jag's existing memory as well.