Atari-Collector Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Ok, this might be a fringe topic for this forum, but here goes nothing... I was doing some searches on the evil auction site and spotted a TRS-80 "Line Filter" power bar. For those that don't remember those, they were fairly nice looking power bar that was TRS-80 branded and was only a line noise filter, no surge protection.. (insert cringe here) I never had one back in the day, was a bit pricey for me, so I ended up talked in to one of the little plastic box 2 prong line filters Radio Shack sold for TVs, and used that on my TRS-80 and later my Atari system. I recall the power extension we had back then was just a wall-box/plug with a lamp cord, with the "wide blade" side marked on the plug with a red Sharpie. (I can hear the gasping from here...) So thought it's be interesting to hear what other's used for ummm power protection.. way back when the world made more sense.. btw, today I use only TrippLite IsoBar Ultra surge protection. Not cheap, but rated by Consumer Reports as the best surge protection made, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodLightning Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Thinking back, my first power strip in the 1980s had a simple glass fuse enclosure. I remember the fuse blowing once when I had two CRT televisions plugged in, along with a running dot matrix printer and more than one lamp. A trip to Radio Shack yielded a pack of replacement fuses. Strips with surge suppression and a circuit breaker were available pretty early in that decade, just more expensive if I am remembering correctly. Hey, I remember when the first Atari VCS heavy sixers were introduced, there were complaints of the wall transformers overheating. I'm wondering if this was common. Multiplexers were definitely being abused in the late 70s..stuff left plugged in day and night/forgotten...just rambling now, but that's how I remember it...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Larry Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I always went by the Joules rating, and started with an IBM power strip rated at something like 1800 Joules (IIRC). Today I have several nice Belkin 12-socket strips rated at around 2300 Joules. These are sold at Amazon and something like $25. Nice unit, I think. But I also have a super-duty power conditioner ahead of the protector. Thing weighs a bunch... -Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Protecting from surges in the mains is only half the job - probably a bigger killer of old systems is if the power brick starts to fail and goes over voltage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kogden Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Protecting from surges in the mains is only half the job - probably a bigger killer of old systems is if the power brick starts to fail and goes over voltage. Yep, first thing I do is ditch original power supply and stick a connector on a modern 2A 5VDC power supply. I don't trust 80's-era power supplies at all. The only Atari power supplies I use are the 9VAC ones for the 1050, 850 and 800. As for surge suppression, I have my 8-bit daily driver on the desk next to my PC plugged into 1000W UPS for power filtering/suppression/battery backup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari-Collector Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 Protecting from surges in the mains is only half the job - probably a bigger killer of old systems is if the power brick starts to fail and goes over voltage. You have good point there, especially considering buying used hardware we never know how it was used/abused or whatever by previous owners. I guess it depends partly on if the voltage regulators are in the brick or the computer part how to handle them. Thinking about it off hand I'd tend to want to build my own power supply and include a crow-bar circuit for extra protection.. A crow-bar circuit is across the output of the power supply that if it detects going over a set voltage it goes into a dead short to kill the power supply and protect the connected hardware, it's commonly used in amateur radio power supplies. I sense a call to Digikey is coming to order some transformers and power transistors is in my near future.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari-Collector Posted November 9, 2014 Author Share Posted November 9, 2014 As for surge suppression, I have my 8-bit daily driver on the desk next to my PC plugged into 1000W UPS for power filtering/suppression/battery backup. One thing you have to watch with UPS' are their surge protection often isn't as high as a good power bar. I know that sounds strange, but I've seen that on a lot of them.. I have my TrippLite Isobar's plugged in to the wall, then the UPS in to the Isobar for two layers of protection. OK, I'm a bit paranoid As for surge suppression, I have my 8-bit daily driver on the desk next to my PC plugged into 1000W UPS for power filtering/suppression/battery backup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 You have good point there, especially considering buying used hardware we never know how it was used/abused or whatever by previous owners. I guess it depends partly on if the voltage regulators are in the brick or the computer part how to handle them. Thinking about it off hand I'd tend to want to build my own power supply and include a crow-bar circuit for extra protection.. A crow-bar circuit is across the output of the power supply that if it detects going over a set voltage it goes into a dead short to kill the power supply and protect the connected hardware, it's commonly used in amateur radio power supplies. I sense a call to Digikey is coming to order some transformers and power transistors is in my near future.... I built a crow-bar protected power supply about 25 years ago, after an INGOT failed and took out the 41256 RAM chips in a RamboXL upgrade, it's still working. I made posts about this in the following thread: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/95416-power-supplies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 I still have my original RadioShack power bar from my Apple II BBS days. Big heavy metal thing. It could handle like 2000 watts and 18 amps or something before the breaker tripped. Beef! I remember chasing my sister around the house with it. Swinging it lasso style screaming ride'em cowboy! Check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari-Collector Posted November 10, 2014 Author Share Posted November 10, 2014 I built a crow-bar protected power supply about 25 years ago, after an INGOT failed and took out the 41256 RAM chips in a RamboXL upgrade, it's still working. I made posts about this in the following thread: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/95416-power-supplies. Looks like my 600XL has the INGOT power supply, I'll have to figure or an order to build a all now supply for it. I guess I could just add a crowbar to the Ingot's power line, but may as well go all new and put the Ingot aside.. I have the SCRs i need, but the only Zener diodes I have are 15 volt I'm thinking a 7805 to give a reference voltage to a good size power transistor to keep it simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 Looks like my 600XL has the INGOT power supply, I'll have to figure or an order to build a all now supply for it. I guess I could just add a crowbar to the Ingot's power line, but may as well go all new and put the Ingot aside.. I have the SCRs i need, but the only Zener diodes I have are 15 volt I'm thinking a 7805 to give a reference voltage to a good size power transistor to keep it simple. Zener diodes are available in 5.1V and 5.6V and inexpensive. I can't find any electronics suppliers in London, but dipmicro electronics in Niagara Falls has 1W rated for $.15ea, lower for larger quantities. They also have 5V/2A switching power supplies for $5.36, just needs a DIN5 plug for use with the XL/XE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari-Collector Posted November 11, 2014 Author Share Posted November 11, 2014 Zener diodes are available in 5.1V and 5.6V and inexpensive. I can't find any electronics suppliers in London, but dipmicro electronics in Niagara Falls has 1W rated for $.15ea, lower for larger quantities. They also have 5V/2A switching power supplies for $5.36, just needs a DIN5 plug for use with the XL/XE. I think with gas it'd be cheaper to pay the shipping from Digikey.ca, they have a flat rate of $8 with in Canada. Or I could drive up to Cambridge and go to Sayal electronics. I use to go to their Toronto stores when I lived there and they have a huge selection. But mail order is probably easiest. I have a 2AMP 18volt with 9volt center tap transform that I bought new probably 30 years ago and only use briefly in a project back then.. So it should make a good transformer for a new power supply, mainly I need a case and power transistor, the rest I have in my parts box already or I could just add a crow bar circuit right inside the 600xl... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 make sure your battery backed up protection is true sinusoidal output alot of the old power protection battery back ups were stepped approximation and cooked the crap out of Atari equipment... square power acted like a brown out and did the slow cook on lotsa stuff... I went with best fortress back up after I learned it the hard way... still true today.... you just aren't aware of the damage being done as much with the switched power supply on todays stuff... an oscilloscope tells the tail and the power is no longer clean.... stepped approximation should be banned out right! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari-Collector Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 I know my oldest UPS, a TripplIte BC400 is stepped. It's on a old PC right now I just ordered a TrippLite ECO850LCD for my TV and Playstation3 and related gizmos. So is PWM sine wave Atari safe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 make sure your battery backed up protection is true sinusoidal output alot of the old power protection battery back ups were stepped approximation and cooked the crap out of Atari equipment... square power acted like a brown out and did the slow cook on lotsa stuff... I went with best fortress back up after I learned it the hard way... still true today.... you just aren't aware of the damage being done as much with the switched power supply on todays stuff... an oscilloscope tells the tail and the power is no longer clean.... stepped approximation should be banned out right! ABSOLUTELY! The square wave has too-fast a rise time for equipment designed to rectify AC to handle. Poof and it's up there! The rising and falling edge/slope just blasts through the working range of the transformer and bridge rectifier of classic AC adapters. And when it gets to the top (or bottom) it stays there like DC, generating heat - whereas a sine wave arrives smoothly and crests for only a moment. A sine wave transitions smoothly and (relatively) slowly between peaks, allowing for traction and good magnetic coupling, efficiency! Another way of putting it is that traditional AC adapters (wall bricks) have nothing to get a grip on and are constantly slammed hi and lo when subjected to square wave inputs. The linearity of a triangle wave would even be more efficient than sine wave, but you have the problem of tiny sharp peaks. This rapid reversal makes all sorts of noise which then has to be filtered out. True sinusoidal output from a UPS is best. To use anything else is blasphemy. Shame on those mfgs which sell cheap-ass substitutes and look-a-like wannabes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 depends on the pwn methods employed, is it stepped and sloped as well as modulated... the pulse can induce noise and interference as well... I can always stand by a sinusoidal back up. This kinda stuff has been argued for years and years... I know what my personal experience in the field and at home have been. Like I said we learned the hard way, I am not going back no way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 So is PWM sine wave Atari safe? No. PWM Sinewave simulates the amount of power delivered through a series of square waves. The poor electronics being fed this type power generate more heat and are put under too much stress. They get overheated and die. AC powered electronics (and your Atari stuff is no exception) wants something that looks like this. Using PWM to simulate a sinewave gives you this: All those rapid rise times of the pwm square wave (intended to approximate the sinewave) cause longevity, heat, and efficiency issues. Especially in classic equipment constructed of simple transformers, diodes, and capacitors. Some UPS designs simply pass the AC power from the mains through to your stuff. That's alright. And most units on the market are like this. The problem comes when you're running on AC power provided by the unit in times of blackouts. That's the dirty unsafe-to-classic-electronics-and-motors kind of power. When shopping for UPS I strongly suggest getting something that lists Pure Sinewave, or True Sinewave, or just plain old Sinewave as the power output "style" or "on-battery output" Such as: http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/pfc-sinewave-series.html http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/pfc-sinewave-series/CP850PFCLCD.html?selectedTabId=specifications&imageI=#tab-box Something like this does not fit the bill. Note the on-battery waveform is "Simulated Sine Wave", which you can equate to the crap pwm sinewave stuff: http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/intelligent-lcd-ups/CP600LCD.html?selectedTabId=specifications&imageI=#tab-box I chose to use CyberPowerSystems stuff as an example here because that's what we have at home. I have no doubt other companies make similar equipment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_inverter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uninterruptible_power_supply https://www.google.com/search?q=sine+wave+pwm&biw=1024&bih=623&source=lnms&sa=X&ei=nstiVPmgLZenyATJiIGIBg&ved=0CAUQ_AUoAA&dpr=1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega-TI Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 A couple of metal-oxide varistors in parallel on the outlet in the wall is cheap too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor On page two of a 'Vintage' 1990 user group newsletter there is a quick little entry on MOV's. ftp://ftp.whtech.com/user%20groups/Vancouver/vancouver9003.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Let's boil it all down into the key feature which makes UPS suitable for classic computers and better for all electronics everywhere. You want to make sure you've got a real sinewave coming out of your protection device. Passive (no battery inside) protection devices do the right thing by nature. UPS? read the specs. Now: As far as passive protection goes, MOV (metal-oxide varistors) is a great choice. However, it is extraordinarily important to couple them with some sort of fast-blow fuse or polyswitch or fusable resistor. Because when an MOV triggers (by overvoltage) it becomes a short circuit. This short circuit hastens the blowing of the fuse - thus disconnecting the to-be-protected equipment from that big nasty spike on the line. This short circuit also yanks the power going to the device to zero. So you need fuses (or fusable/resistive component) on both sides. Please tell me I just didn't read this: A couple of metal-oxide varistors in parallel on the outlet in the wall is cheap too. ..and likely to catch fire unless you use a fast-blow fuse, resistors, or some sort of polyswitch or some kind of fuse/resistor in the circuit as well. Here's a bunch of circuit diagrams showing simple power protection circuits. https://www.google.com/search?q=mov+fast-blow&biw=1024&bih=623&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zddiVKrFOcb2yQSL7YDABw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw#tbm=isch&q=surge+suppresion+circuit&imgdii=_ https://www.google.com/search?q=mov+fast-blow&biw=1024&bih=623&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zddiVKrFOcb2yQSL7YDABw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw#tbm=isch&q=mov+circuit&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=z4Z04IwkUbBn8M%253A%3B85qYTxBiECJqlM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F4.bp.blogspot.com%252F-uxYO4_Hzk_8%252FTvQdIWp0-2I%252FAAAAAAAAAhw%252FQdrjUz4enp0%252Fs1600%252FSurge%252BProtection.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fhomemadecircuitsandschematics.blogspot.com%252F2011%252F12%252Fhow-to-make-simple-ac-mains-surge.html%3B850%3B566 You'll note that when a surge comes in, the MOV clamps down and shorts, blows the fuse, and the equipment becomes disconnected from the mains. I also like the 4th diagram because here the circuit has resistors in series with the load and will allow the load to discharge any stored (inductive) energy gracefully. There is also a second set of MOVs in there too. This is great for transformers and wall warts. TRIVIA: MOV based surge suppressors have a limited lifespan and "age" as they absorb tiny transients of nanoseconds in length. Eventually they will wear out. It will take larger and larger spikes to fire them off, all the while small glitches and noises get through more and more. Worse off, there is no easy way to non-destructive test them. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega-TI Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Please tell me I just didn't read this: Well, the topic is: vintage power "protection" in quotes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atari-Collector Posted November 12, 2014 Author Share Posted November 12, 2014 Well, the topic is: vintage power "protection" in quotes... The post has changed direction a bit, but in a good way. I know I've learned a few things from all the posts, I'm willing to bet others have benefited from it also. Not sure if I can change my order for the UPS still of not.. But the UPS I just ordered is going on all modern hardware. Power failures here are not very common, so I think I'll just stick to surge and noise protection for the Atari stuff. Maybe invest in some newer units though since my Isobars are all at least 10 years old now. It's not like I plan on leaving the Atari's on full time like I do my PCs, not to mention modern TV, games like the PS3 and so on never really shut off completely. And when the power does fail, I usually start turning things off after a few minutes anyway. My main reason for using UPS's is those brief glitches that are enough to crash something and have to wait to get the stuff rebooted or reset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omega-TI Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 And when the power does fail, I usually start turning things off after a few minutes anyway. My main reason for using UPS's is those brief glitches that are enough to crash something and have to wait to get the stuff rebooted or reset. In the past, I considered buying a UPS, but now that I'm using a 17.3" laptop as my primary computer I don't see the point. If power fails, I have at least 3-1/2 hours of uninterrupted usage. Glitches are not a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Some sensitive "high-performance" PC power supplies will shut down the instant they see a glitch in the waveform. In these cases only a true sinewave power conditioner + UPS will function correctly. Basically this means the power conditioner's backup circuitry is accepting AC input, and re-building the sinewave output realtime. And when the AC power blacks out, the PC continues to see an un-interrupted supply. The wave is not glitched or skewed nor does it miss a cycle. Some UPS units don't do that, and they take a small time to switch over, this switching glitch can cause a PC power supply to shut down prematurely. So you're going to want to test whatever setup you have, be sure the UPS and the powered stuff work together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 In the past, I considered buying a UPS, but now that I'm using a 17.3" laptop as my primary computer I don't see the point. If power fails, I have at least 3-1/2 hours of uninterrupted usage. Glitches are not a problem. This is a marketing point laptop mfgs never capitalized on. You basically get a free and built-in UPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+poobah Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I'd imagine all but the cheapest UPS would have some large caps on non-sinusoidal outputs to smooth things out. You cant send out unfiltered PWM power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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