Male Privelage in Gaming

[Jess Ragan]

Sarkeesian: Ran out of her house due to threats. Brianna Wu: Ran out of her house due to threats. Jenn Frank: Ran out of the industry due to threats. And on and on it goes. I'm not going to participate in this asinine "where's your evidence?" farce because it always ends with you guys either questioning the evidence ("it's all been faked!" Rrrright...) or distancing the culprits from the general Gator movement. (Funny how Game-R-Gate is a unified force until one of its members does something horrible...)

 

If you want evidence, take off the Gator blinders and open your damn eyes. One guy keeps taking selfies at the workplace of a female developer targeted by the movement, a veiled threat if ever there was one. Women in the industry are constantly threatened and doxxed by 8Chan's army of the brain-dead. Gators make legal (and illegal) threats over the Twitter block list by Randi Harper, claiming that people who don't want to listen to their entitled bullshit are somehow violating their rights. (How, exactly?)

 

I'm disappointed in all of you. The Gators have been acting like major league holes for months now, but I was under the impression that retro gamers would be smart enough to reject their idiocy. Judging from this thread and a similar one on Digital Press, it turns out I was mistaken. At least a mod on DP stepped in to stem the tide of Gator bullshit a few pages in.

[FastRobPlus]

"That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

-Christopher Hitchens

[Jess Ragan]

You'd reject any evidence I presented, seagull. I repeat... take off the Gator blinders and ask any of the victims of your moronic movement. Sarkeesian, Alexander, Frank, etc. Even fucking Tim Schafer is fed up with this shit.

[FastRobPlus]

Got any evidence?

[Jess Ragan]

That Tim Schafer is sick of your childish crap? Here y'go!

 

https://storify.com/KestrelPi/tim-schafer-remains-unfazed

 

And while we're at it, have a taste of this:

 

https://medium.com/@upstreamism/to-the-rest-of-gamergate-6ae95bd7d032

 

And here's an article on Gator harassment:

 

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Gamergate_coordinated_harassment_campaign

 

And another!

 

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/gamergate-harassment-op-ed,news-19552.html

 

Want more? I'd be happy to supply it. There are dozens of examples. Of course, you'll pooh-pooh them away with lame excuses, but it doesn't change the fact that Game-R-Gate is a toxic movement for trolls and idiots.

[Tupin]

Bobby Kotick was right about Schafer. Just saying. Schafer has no clue how to run anything on a budget and basically ran off with a lot of the Kickstarter money.

 

But don't worry, I'm sure it will be worth it. Journalists and indie developers will be holding their cans of Mountain Dew Gamerfuel and staying in their hotel rooms paid for by major companies, tweeting endlessly about how their career isn't taken seriously. And they'll wonder why no one stepped up to do anything.

 

And I could post sources from Christina H. Sommers and some conservative blog that I found randomly, and would YOU take them seriously? No. No one actually wants anything but people to agree with them. You won't see it as anything but Cheeto-stained misogynerd manchildren violently forcing women out of their houses, and most people in support won't exactly see your side as positive either.

 

No one involved in this wants dialogue. They want people to agree with them.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Tupin

[FastRobPlus]

Okay - some progress!!!

 

Let's start with the first one. Clicked the link, it's some twitter exchange between Tim Schafer (a guy MS had to cut loose as his game Psychonaughts drug on in both time and cost during its developent-days as a Microsoft product...)

...and on the other side of the debate... I dunno... some other people? Oh, and the page says #gamergate at the top.

 

I don't really consider Twitter to be a hub of the gaming community since it's often anonymous exchanges across people with no past history, but I read this one completely through for you JR.

 

It's an argument about game development costs...

 

So what is your point here? Did I miss the part where he's accused of paying bribes to game journalists?

[Jess Ragan]

By the way, here's a look at the people Rob seems so intent on defending.

 

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gamergate

 

Nice guys, huh? I would hope AtariAge would distance itself as far from the Gators as possible. They're a hugely toxic influence on gaming and the retro community would be far better off without them.

[FastRobPlus]

Not going to reply to my question? Let me repeat it:

 

 

So what is your point here? Did I miss the part where he (Tim Schafer) is accused of paying bribes to game journalists?

 

 

 

 

And hey - I noticed you've tried to sweep my other questions under the rug too:

 

 

Most games are violent and antisocial? This sounds like yet another assertion without evidence. What's your source for this?

 

 

 

Who in the games industry is making threats?

 

 

You seem to be spending the lion's share of your time finding ways to insult me when I think most of us would like you to respond to these reasonable questions.

 

TIP: When citing external websites avoid saying "Go out and read this whole thing." Rather, state the evidence and put the corroborating link inline or as a footnote, and make sure the link takes you to the place with the relevant information to support your rebuttal. Finally, check to ensure that that source does not simply make assertions of its own without referring verifiable facts

[Tupin]

Oh yeah, Rationalwiki. There's a place you can trust.

[+Sauron]

Yes, Gamergate is toxic and full of trollish manchildren because some people were threatened on the Internet. You know plenty of pro-GGers have received death threats too, right? But I guess that doesn't count, because you don't agree with them.

[FastRobPlus]

Yes, Gamergate is toxic and full of trollish manchildren because some people were threatened on the Internet. You know plenty of pro-GGers have received death threats too, right? But I guess that doesn't count, because you don't agree with them.

 

To be fair, I have seen links to twitter tweets where a threat is made to a woman and the threat is from someone like "GamerGate001" or something. But nobody has ever answered my initial question (or for that matter any of my others quesitons!)

 

So getting back to my initial question:

"Who in the games industry is making threats?"

As near as I can tell, these are anonymous threats made by trolls or easily tricked kids responding the initial feminist trolling. This is troll-on-troll twitter violence pure and simple! Calling it gamer-related does not make it true. It's only a problem for the gaming community in that we keep being told it's an internal problem. I have to say, It's really hard for me to prevent my fellow (for example) AtariAge users from issuing all these death threats when I have no reason to believe that anyone is actually making any!!

 

The very closest I've found to an actual threat issued to anyone was that Hungarian StarCraft pro tourney guy who threatened to "Rape my female opponent in the StarCraft playoff" or something. You can reasonably say he's a gamer. So what happened? Other gamers dog piled him in social media, he was banned from the tournament, and he quickly apologized and acknowledged his insensitivity.

Is he an ass? Yep! Did he deserve what happened to him? Yeah, I think so. Did we in the gaming community make an example of him for his comment and probably scare others from making stupid comments - or at least make sure when they says they'll 'rape' or 'kill' you in StarCraft, that they make sure they direct the comment at a guy? Yup and yup!

 

This does not sound like the endless litany of credible threats from within the games industry I keep being assured is happening.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I haven't watched the videos to really get into the subject matter of this thread (sorry, kinda busy right now) but isn't the word "prevalence" the word that should actually be used instead of "privelage" or "privilege"?

What the video and it makes sense. The men in Anita's latest video came up with 25 "reasons" why being a male gamer is a privilege. It's an extremely shallow strawman's strawperson's argument at best. No real guy would speak this way unless he is ashamed of being male.

[Tupin]

What the video and it makes sense. The men in Anita's latest video came up with 25 "reasons" why being a male gamer is a privilege. It's an extremely shallow strawman's strawperson's argument at best. No real guy would speak this way unless he is ashamed of being male.

Nail on the head with this one. For one reason or another, these guys are. If they're ashamed of being male, they'll support anything that alleviates guilt that they for some reason think they have to have inherently. But then when you get more into this they start talking about poison M&Ms and shit and I don't even know. Or they could all just be trollshielding so that they aren't the ones gone after next.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Tupin

[FastRobPlus]

What the video and it makes sense. The men in Anita's latest video came up with 25 "reasons" why being a male gamer is a privilege. It's an extremely shallow strawman's strawperson's argument at best. No real guy would speak this way unless he is ashamed of being male.

 

I went ahead and watched the whole thing. The second to last guy (I think he's the snarky, curmudgeonly G4 reviewer guy) was saying something like "We must acknowledge the problem and take responsibility for it as a community!"

 

Really G4 guy? We've been a community supportive of kids trolling online up until now? We haven't as a grass-roots community already been doing our part to to foster an inclusive community, pushing the racist and homophobe kids and trolls to the dark corners of the internet by down voting them, banning them, and helping to teach each other how to ignore them?

 

We never thought to do any of that, but now that you've told us we'll wake up?

 

Let me tell you what you are really doing with your 25 privileges:

 

• You are giving the trolls a list of 25 ideas for things they should do or say to enflame and re-arm the feminists and keep this whole cycle front and center. You are ensuring that the stories keep coming.

 

• You are telling us the problem is internal in an attempt to pit us against each other rather than frame the issue as a gamers versus trolls who want to tarnish our reputation - the lone argument that could galvanize everyone into supporting this cause you profess to care about.

 

• Oh, and of course you are painting yourself as a white knight who is an advocate for all gamers, rather nicely deflecting the conversation away from the journalistic corruption issues that plague your part of the industry.

But you knew that last one already, didn't you G4 guy?

[+Random Terrain]

But you knew that last one already, didn't you G4 guy?

I stopped watching G4 a long time ago. I thought I heard that Adam Sessler got injections that caused him to grow a nice pair of breasts so people would keep watching X-Play. Maybe I heard wrong. One thing we know for sure is that G4 and Adam Sessler only cared about Morgan Webb's mind and didn't use her as eye candy to attract horny little gamer boyz.

[Pixelboy]

Watch the video and it makes sense. The men in Anita's latest video came up with 25 "reasons" why being a male gamer is a privilege. It's an extremely shallow strawman's strawperson's argument at best. No real guy would speak this way unless he is ashamed of being male.

I watched the OP's video, and I stand corrected.

 

And by the way, to me it sounded like a bunch of guys who were being told what to say in front of the camera by their girlfriends, in the hopes that by not showing themselves directly, people would take their message more seriously. It doesn't really work that way, girls.

 

We have to go back to the early years of video gaming to identify the root of where this "male priviledge" perception came from. Back in the late 70s and early 80s, the vast majority of video games players were boys and male teens. There were extremely few girls interested in watching guys play video games, and even less were interesting in holding a joystick in their hands. That was just the general mentality back then. I know, because I was there and I lived it. I saw girls pick up a joystick, try to score some points, fail miserably, and just toss the joystick aside and go to another room because they were somehow embarassed by their poor video gaming performance. And the boys would pick the joystick up and keep on playing.

 

Things have evolved tremendously since then, fortunately, and now video games can actually be a fun bonding activity for couples (both potential and existing) and girls have proven themselves to be just as good and competitive as the best male gamers out there. Good for them, I say.

 

But see, that's not where the real problem lies. The real problem is one of territory. For a long time, video games have undeniably been a "mostly guy thing", and guess what? Guys like it that way. It's something guys can do as a male bonding activity and keep the girls out of the equation, like football/hockey nights or (going further back in time) the evenings spent drinking with pals at the local pub. Male bonding is a powerful phenomenon, powerful enough to cause acute social problems when women try to put their foot in the door. Remember the "no women allowed" signs on pubs in certain countries because wives were constantly barging in the pub to grab their drunken husbands and make an embarrasing scene in the process? That was a long time ago and things have greatly changed since then, but the same thing is happening now on a broader scale: Guys attempting to intimidate gaming girls any way they can to keep them away from their favorite male bonding activity.

 

Of course, there's also the other reason for acting like a total male jerk, which is wild teenage hormones pushing guys to make a move on girls online just because they think they can start (and build) a "significant relationship" with a girl just because she's a fellow gamer. But I think it's a lesser phenomenon because guys quickly learn that even if a girl is just as good as you are at video games, doesn't mean you actually have anything else in common with this girl. Still, wild hormones are, always have been and always will be an endless source of facepalm-inducing social incidents.

 

So I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the guys in the video are just dancing around the real issue without ever addressing it: Even before you can teach guys about respect towards the opposite gender, they have to be educated about the shallow merits of male bonding. Those merits are indeed quite shallow when you stop to think about it.

[Tupin]

If the merits of male bonding are weak, why are the merits of female bonding presented as absolutely essential? Maybe both are equally important and can't be understated. Maybe they don't teach people to be wildly sexist, but rather not to feel like a pile of crap for being one way or another. I get a feeling that the men who do this sort of thing never were treated with any sort of comeraderie between members of their other sex, at least early on, just playing armchair sociologist. They were probably outcast as "nerds" and basically fetishized women as "well, THEY won't hurt me, all women are good unlike those rude other guys."

 

The problem is that the industry tried to sell games to everyone in the 80s, realized women didn't want them at this point (partially because people created a culture that only losers play games, and only men can be losers,) so switched to targeting males only in the 90s. It's hard to change this. It's even harder to get people to realize that we once had at least an attempt at it in the 80s. There's not this whole conspiracy to keep women out. Women have always been important to the industry.

 

It's just jarring to people who have been made fun of their entire lives for liking something to then be expected to share their hobby with the same people that once hated them. This is more than just women, this is about "geek culture" in general. I saw an intriguing argument that this is about extroverts versus introverts. The former hates that the latter exists, but the latter just wants to be left alone. Extroverts seek out introverts' places where they talk and force themselves in and do what they want. Just a theory, not that it's all about gender.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Tupin

[Pixelboy]

If the merits of male bonding are weak, why are the merits of female bonding presented as absolutely essential?

I don't think I presented it that way... Perhaps you're drawing more from the video or other sources?

 

 

Maybe both are equally important and can't be understated.

I've seen girls do female-bonding activities and deliberately exclude boys from them, just for the sake of keeping their female-bonding "pure". So the same phenomenon applies to both genders. No one likes being excluded for arbitrary reasons, but that's how the world turns, and it often takes a few generations to see a change in mentalities. And even then, the possibilities for change are sometimes limited by age-old social conventions.

 

 

The problem is that the industry tried to sell games to everyone in the 80s, realized women didn't want them at this point (partially because people created a culture that only losers play games, and only men can be losers,) so switched to targeting males only in the 90s. It's hard to change this. It's even harder to get people to realize that we once had at least an attempt at it in the 80s. There's not this whole conspiracy to keep women out. Women have always been important to the industry.

Important, yes, but not necessarily the target audience. Even today, I go to gaming stores and mostly see other male customers there and not many girls/women, except during such special occasions as Black Friday or Holiday shopping sprees. But mentalities are definately changing, albeit slowly: In the last few years, I've seen guys come to gaming stores with their girlfriends and discuss games to buy so they can play together. That's always cute, and also reassuring about where the hobby is going regarding genders.

 

 

It's just jarring to people who have been made fun of their entire lives for liking something to then be expected to share their hobby with the same people that once hated them. This is more than just women, this is about "geek culture" in general. I saw an intriguing argument that this is about extroverts versus introverts. The former hates that the latter exists, but the latter just wants to be left alone. Extroverts seek out introverts' places where they talk and force themselves in and do what they want. Just a theory, not that it's all about gender.

That's probably true.

[Tickled_Pink]

Men treating women badly is a symptom of a much larger issue. For instance:

 

• There are groups of people who say mental illness isn't a real health issue, and anyone with an illness such as PTSD is "faking it."
• The hosts of a popular women's talk show called "The Talk" laughed and made fun of a recent news item about a man whose penis was cut off and blended in a blender by his wife.
• An NFL player was recently filmed in an elevator punching his fiancée.

 

While it’s true that all people are equal in the eyes of the law, and all people deserve equal rights, we live in a world containing some objectively, demonstrably worse human beings than ourselves.

 

 

Sadly that isn't how it works in reality.

 

Today I was listening to a radio show that was interviewing the leader of the Guides in the UK. She admitted to being a feminist. However, and this is where a differential can be made between true feminism and the pseudo feminism practised by Anita Sarkeesian. She stated that feminism was about seeking equal treatment for men and women. That she didn't hate men (quite the opposite) and she didn't believe that true feminism should be about man bashing or man hating. Unfortunately there are many people, both men and women, who subscribe to the nutty form of feminism. It is this form of feminism that's quite abhorrent, destructive and hypocritical.

 

Anita's form of feminism is all about playing the victim. But wait. Isn't that what she complained about in her Tropes vs Women videos? The damsel in distress? And an analysis of her 25 moans video gives us an example of that. Unable to make her point herself, she enlists the help of men to do the job for her (seeking rescue by men). And yet, given the responses on AA, the video's getting the same kind of response as if she'd performed in it herself.

 

But unfortunately too many people subscribe to this kind of feminism. This includes people in high places and positions of power.

 

Any man unfortunate enough to get caught up in real world situations with women, particularly if it results in legal difficulties, will find that the world is very much against them. Women are far more likely to receive custody of children, even if they're in a much worse financial position than their former partners or less likely to be able to cope mentally. If a man makes a complaint of assault against a woman, he's far less likely to be taken seriously than a woman making the same complaint against a man. In the UK, it's now a legal requirement for men to be able to read the minds of women who submit to sex of their own free will after having a bit too much to drink (and having taken cocaine a few days earlier). It seems that yes now means no.

 

Both my daughters enjoy playing games. Youngest plays games designed with girls in mind online (horsey games). Oldest plays COD on Xbox Live. Unlike me, she plays with the headset microphone on. She's never reported any issues to me about other players giving her abuse because she's female. It's something that would put her off playing immediately. In fact she complained to me yesterday that she hasn't got time to play COD any more because she's now a mother. It was why she said she didn't want an Xbox One or PS4 for Christmas.

 

You're far more likely to receive abuse online because you're male. I've had a few run-ins in my time but she's never had a single problem. In my, and her, experience gamers tend to treat female players better and with greater respect. You're always going to get testosterone fuelled morons wherever you go and whatever you do. But by making it out to be a much bigger problem than it actually is, Anita is slandering an entire group.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Tickled_Pink

[WestofHouse]

Sarkeesian: Ran out of her house due to threats. Brianna Wu: Ran out of her house due to threats. Jenn Frank: Ran out of the industry due to threats. And on and on it goes. I'm not going to participate in this asinine "where's your evidence?" farce because it always ends with you guys either questioning the evidence ("it's all been faked!" Rrrright...) or distancing the culprits from the general Gator movement. (Funny how Game-R-Gate is a unified force until one of its members does something horrible...)

 

If you want evidence, take off the Gator blinders and open your damn eyes. One guy keeps taking selfies at the workplace of a female developer targeted by the movement, a veiled threat if ever there was one. Women in the industry are constantly threatened and doxxed by 8Chan's army of the brain-dead. Gators make legal (and illegal) threats over the Twitter block list by Randi Harper, claiming that people who don't want to listen to their entitled bullshit are somehow violating their rights. (How, exactly?)

 

I'm disappointed in all of you. The Gators have been acting like major league holes for months now, but I was under the impression that retro gamers would be smart enough to reject their idiocy. Judging from this thread and a similar one on Digital Press, it turns out I was mistaken. At least a mod on DP stepped in to stem the tide of Gator bullshit a few pages in.

 

 

You'd reject any evidence I presented, seagull. I repeat... take off the Gator blinders and ask any of the victims of your moronic movement. Sarkeesian, Alexander, Frank, etc. Even fucking Tim Schafer is fed up with this shit.

 

Annnd, thread over. That's it in a nutshell. I refuse to engage them anymore, in this or any other thread. There's no point.

Edited December 7, 2014 by WestofHouse

[Andromeda Stardust]

I don't think the thread is over or needs to be locked. It's been highly civil and intelligent discussion so far. I've watched all Anita's videos and she brings up some valid points, although I don't subscribe to her logic personally. I don't think most members here do. Nobody's being misgynist (sp?) or feminazist here.

[FastRobPlus]

WestofHouse

 

You've declared yourself the winner and the discussion finished?

 

Is that how you think debating works?

[Tickled_Pink]

And here's a thought ...

 

One of the games where abuse is commonplace is Forza. Players get irate if they're taken out by others during a race. A couple of times I've been taken out by someone but then been targeted by others because they thought I caused the crash. It's part and parcel of the game. You have to live with it. The usual abuse is along the lines of ... "Learn to f***ing drive!" It's a pretty generic suggestion to a male player.

 

If someone like Anita heard it then her heckles would be up. "You saying I can't drive because I'm a woman??"

 

That's the kind of logic we're talking about here.

[FastRobPlus]

Another list of 25 assertions without any real evidence, but it illustrates the way in which Anita's "sounds about right" pop psychology can be used to prove the exact opposite of male privilege in gaming:

Link to original

 

Many women recently have claimed to experience alienation and harassment in gaming because of their gender. They have spent countless hours telling social media, and real media, about how their individual experiences are indicative of a widespread issue. Any women who attempt to showcase their positive experiences in gaming are met with accusations of self-hatred, or of not being real. One of the issues of being a member of a group that is constantly being told is “oppressed” is that the benefits awarded to us may remain invisible. Working towards a solution requires that female gamers become aware of the ways which we unconsciously benefit from being female. With that in mind, the following is a list of some of the concrete benefits that female gamers automatically receive simply for being female.

 

1. I don’t have to be worried about being told I am “too old” to be playing games. Because I am female, no one will call me a “man-baby” or claim that I “need to grow up” simply because I choose to play games. It will also not automatically be assumed that I am a nerd or a virgin.

 

2. As a female, I don’t have to worry that someone will automatically assume I live with my parents because I play games.

 

3. People will be willing to censor popular titles, and content, for the sole purpose of catering to my possible feelings.

 

4. I could openly admit that I do not play games, yet people will be willing to hand me thousands of dollars just to hear my opinions on them.

 

5. Men will be willing to devalue themselves, and their entire gender, in order to place me on a pedestal, solely because I am female.

 

6. I will never have to worry about having a sufficient party in order to complete raids. Being female ensures that I will always have available allies willing to contribute to my success.

 

7. I can make blanket claims about gamers of an entire gender, a gender which I am not a part of and can not relate to in any real life situations, and will receive the widespread, unwavering support of the media.

 

8. Because I am a female, I will be far more influential in the socio-politics of in-game communities because I am seen as a rarity.

 

9. The industry, as a whole, is willing to attempt to push out other consumers in order to secure a safe spot for me, free from any potentially offensive or controversial content.

 

10. When dating, the fact that I am a gamer will not be looked down upon because of my gender, rather it is more likely to be viewed as an endearing quality.

 

11. In the event my presence is not welcome for any reason, I have the ability to claim the motivation is based solely on my gender, and there will be no lack of people willing to believe me with no requests for proof.

 

12. In the event I do something wrong and am called out on it, I have the ability to claim the person calling me out is sexist, and will receive intense, widespread support.

 

13. My opinions on any matter will hold more widespread clout immediately, for no reason other than I am a female.

 

14. Many players will be more willing to censor their language in order to make sure I am more comfortable. In the event someone does not censor themselves, I will have no shortage of men willing to “white knight” on behalf of my honor. On horse or afoot.

 

15. As a female, people will be afraid to criticize me, or my opinions, no matter how radical or insane they are, for fear of being called sexist.

 

16. If I am short on in-game currency, there will always be someone willing to purchase items for me, solely because of my gender.

 

17. Rarely are my mistakes called out in a game. Instead of the expected trash talk a male gamer receives, I am offered constructive criticism, advice, and even compliments on what I DID do correctly.

 

18. As a female in a “male dominated environment,” I have the potential of holding more power in a gaming community than someone far more experienced than I, simply because I am seen as a rarity.

 

19. People are willing to gift me extra items, or even games, for no reason other than that I am a female.

 

20. I will have more success if I decide to stream on Twitch, for no reason other than that I am a female who happens to play video games.

 

21. Should I ever choose to enter the gaming industry, I will have more success with fundraising campaigns because of my gender alone. I will have access to special grants and foundations, based on my gender instead of my experience, ability, motivation, or credibility.

 

22. While it may be true that some people expect males to be better at games, that also works in my favor. I don’t have to be as good as a male in order to be considered better than him. Lower expectations does not mean I am unwelcome. Rather, it means my performance does not have to be impressive in order to impress people.

 

23. People will automatically assume that, because I happen to be female, I want to read gaming articles, blogs, reviews, and magazines written by other females, and will go out of their way in order to accommodate me in that regard.

 

24. Popular websites and magazines will take my gender into account when reviewing any game, and will stretch as far as possible in order to “pre-warn” me about any small amount of material in the game which could potentially hurt my feelings, because of my gender.

 

25. Because it was created by a female, this checklist will be less likely to be taken seriously because of its content. I will likely be accused of internalizing misogyny, simply because I am acknowledging the benefits I have as a female gamer, versus focusing on what I think my disadvantages are. However, I know that, in creating this list, I will also garner a decent amount of appreciation, simply because I am a female willing to express appreciation for the benefits available to me, instead of playing a perpetual victim.