Carts vs roms

[hero2billions]

I'm new to the forums and was pleasantly surprised to see intv is alive and well.

I am thrilled to see new games for it as well, but i am curious about some things.

 

First off i admit i have no knowledge of programming, nor any interest in collecting.

 

 

Having bought 3 intvs in the last year and a half only to have them blow up,not work and spontaniously combust, i've decided to stick to emulation.

 

I'm wondering why most of the homebrews are cart only and not available as roms( not complaining, just curious)

It seems to me the collectors will buy them CIB no matter what, leaving the emus sol.I'll gladly pay for them, i just wonder about the reasoning behind it, are emu users a small minority?

[LidLikesIntellivision]

Although I'm not really giving you an answer, you should look here: http://www.intellivision.us/roms/roms.php

 

And, since you bought 3 intvs and probably still have some controllers available, maybe you'll be interested in this: http://www.intellivision.us/intvgames/interface/interface.php

 

Welcome aboard!

Edited January 4, 2015 by LidLikesIntellivision

[hero2billions]

Thanks, i allready own 3 vision adapters and have those roms, i'm really just wondering if i will ever have a chance to get Ms. night stalker,princess quest,old school etc without buying another intv as i seem to have bad luck with those

[freewheel]

Very simple: there is a belief, partially justified, that the existence of a ROM in the wild cannibalizes sales of the cartridges.

 

You're correct in that the CIB folks are - let's face it - buying cardboard anyway, and will continue to do so regardless. Hell, some of these people buy 15 copies of the same Poker&Blackjack game because of a slight font change from the 14th - and that ROM has been out there for decades. But there is a belief that there is a market out there, of people who will pay $50 just to play a new homebrew, but who don't care about the CIB thing at all, and would also never pay a dime if the ROM was freely available.

 

And there are people like this for sure. I don't think anyone has a real good idea as to how large that latter segment of the market is, however - but several people have noticed cartridge sales virtually dry up once a ROM is released. Now, due to when people tend to release ROMs, that may be complete coincidence, or it may actually be that people stop purchasing. It's possible that the retro game homebrew scene is entirely different than any other form of media out there.

 

The hard reality is, pretty much every homebrew ROM is dumped within hours of commercial release anyway, and shared amongst certain people. No, I am not one of those people and no, I am not able to provide you with these. But it's kept on the DL for the most part. I guess people hope that if it stays quiet, commercial sales of CIB releases will continue.

 

I'm not sure if we've seen a simultaneous CIB and for-sale ROM release, to see what happens numbers-wise. Most homebrew ROMs have become available a fair while after the physical copies get sold.

Edited January 4, 2015 by freeweed

[pimpmaul69]

I am a person who plays roms. I am not against paying for them. I bought 3 roms from carl. Two d2k roms because of the voice permanently on variant. (Yes even rom collectors can enjoy variant collecting.) but for me i modify electronics and controllers so i can play roms so many different way with many different controllers however i see fit. Plus i no longer have the room for tons of devices taking up space i dont have. The only old school system i have is a tandyvision. I have an atari flashback 2 and 3, a coleco flashback, an intellivision flashback and my modded intv flashback and a wii. I keep the flashbacks boxed and put away. But i was buying and collecting tons of games and systems while collecting roms. I wasn't collecting roms because i wanted everything free. I did it because i like to have everything in one place for ease of use. I wish more developers that wont distribute their roms for free would sell their roms. I am not against supporting them, i just have no use for a cart. I have purchased 2 coleco roms and 3 intv roms. They are the only ones i have ever found for sale. Not everyone who plays roms is trying to get everything for free. They just want to be able to play them in a way that suits them better.

Edited January 4, 2015 by pimpmaul69

[intvnut]

The hard reality is, pretty much every homebrew ROM is dumped within hours of commercial release anyway, and shared amongst certain people. No, I am not one of those people and no, I am not able to provide you with these. But it's kept on the DL for the most part. I guess people hope that if it stays quiet, commercial sales of CIB releases will continue.

 

I wonder if anyone has successfully dumped any of the Elektronite releases or Christmas Carol. If anyone has, I'm curious to hear about it. PM if you wish. I won't be upset or anything. I'd just like to know.

 

 

I'm not sure if we've seen a simultaneous CIB and for-sale ROM release, to see what happens numbers-wise. Most homebrew ROMs have become available a fair while after the physical copies get sold.

 

dZ released a free ROM for Christmas Carol just a few months after the CIB release. We released in August 2012; ROM came out in December 2012. My sense is that it slowed sales, stretching out the "long tail" quite a bit, taking about 2 years to reach 300 copies sold. And at least one collector put off buying a copy until we were sold out (missing out on buying a copy from me directly) because he had the ROM and was in no hurry. I don't regret releasing the ROM, but it does inform my future behavior.

 

From now on, I don't plan to release a ROM for any of my own titles until a certain sales threshold has been reached, assuming I do a CIB release. With CIB releases, there's a crossover point you need to reach before the title actually breaks even. Before that point, I'm actually losing money on a release. (*puts on wannabe MBA hat*) That's before even counting the opportunity costs associated with having the cash tied up in inventory or the time value of money. (*takes off wannabe MBA hat*) Pushing that crossover point out in time makes it harder to stay in the hobby of making CIB releases.

 

Of course, this is all philosophical at this point. My free time being what it is, I don't know when I'll have a new title. For now, I'm absorbed in completing LTO Flash!

 

EDIT: I just looked up the sales numbers. We released the Christmas Carol ROM just prior to crossing 200 copies sold. (We were around 180 to 185, it appears, and crossed 200 in January 2013.) We didn't hit 300 until a couple months ago. You could also make an argument that the long tail was indicative of the size of the market, the strength of the title (I think it was a strong title) and/or how (un)successfully we marketed the title. Perhaps a reasonable threshold for ROM release on the size batches I produce would be around 250? I'd have to think about it.

Edited January 4, 2015 by intvnut

[hero2billions]

Thanks it's nice to get an idea as to how homebrew are sold.I can understand why some people wouldn't release roms, but it's the only way they'll get my money as i'm through rolling the dice on new intvs

[intvnut]

Thanks it's nice to get an idea as to how homebrew are sold.I can understand why some people wouldn't release roms, but it's the only way they'll get my money as i'm through rolling the dice on new intvs

 

I understand and am sympathetic. As an emulator author, I actually spend way more time playing games in emulation than on real hardware anyway.

 

Also, my own hardware product—LTO Flash!—will pretty much depend on having ROMs available even when playing on the console. Hopefully we can figure out a model that works for everyone.

[+JasonlikesINTV]

I like the concept of initially selling x CIB copies, then selling the ROM cheap (<or= $10). I have yet to see this happen for the Intellivision, though. It was very cool that the Christmas Carol ROM was given away free, but I agree with intvnut that future ROMs would be best offered after recouping CIB costs.

Edited January 4, 2015 by JasonlikesINTV

[+DZ-Jay]

I wonder if anyone has successfully dumped any of the Elektronite releases or Christmas Carol. If anyone has, I'm curious to hear about it. PM if you wish. I won't be upset or anything. I'd just like to know.

 

 

 

dZ released a free ROM for Christmas Carol just a few months after the CIB release. We released in August 2012; ROM came out in December 2012. My sense is that it slowed sales, stretching out the "long tail" quite a bit, taking about 2 years to reach 300 copies sold. And at least one collector put off buying a copy until we were sold out (missing out on buying a copy from me directly) because he had the ROM and was in no hurry. I don't regret releasing the ROM, but it does inform my future behavior.

 

From now on, I don't plan to release a ROM for any of my own titles until a certain sales threshold has been reached, assuming I do a CIB release. With CIB releases, there's a crossover point you need to reach before the title actually breaks even. Before that point, I'm actually losing money on a release. (*puts on wannabe MBA hat*) That's before even counting the opportunity costs associated with having the cash tied up in inventory or the time value of money. (*takes off wannabe MBA hat*) Pushing that crossover point out in time makes it harder to stay in the hobby of making CIB releases.

 

Of course, this is all philosophical at this point. My free time being what it is, I don't know when I'll have a new title. For now, I'm absorbed in completing LTO Flash!

 

I don't quite agree with your assessment. My recollection of events is that the ROM came out when we reached 200 copies--that was our agreement. And by then sales had already slowed down to a trickle. Keep in mind that in our small market, and with virtually no advertisement to speak of, the long tail starts effectively once the initial release rush ends.

 

It is my belief that releasing the ROM helped sales, if marginally, not only by offering a "try before you buy" sample, but by expanding the reach of the game. I know some people purchased the game after or during one of the CvW Championships just because they played the game and enjoyed it--even after they already had the free ROM.

 

My understanding is that those who buy the game CIB are mostly collectors, those who want to support the burgeoning market, and those who appreciate having a physical product. These people will not be deterred by a free ROM.

 

Those who don't need nor care for the box and cartridge will probably either trade for other stock, or wait it out until a fire-sale occurs or the ROM is released.

 

I'm sure there are some in between, but the market is still too small for it to make much difference. I've said it before, that a realistic production run should be around 250 to 300 copies.

 

Personally, I would produce games in larger quantities to reduce costs, and feed the long tail in virtual perpetuity. But that's just me.

 

In truth, we can't really tell much about these numbers yet, and it would be interesting to see how the market shapes once other producers come into the picture. Right now our experience is littered with exceptions or anomalies: fantastically good games like Space Patrol and Stonix, which were produced before the market even was fully formed; a runaway hit like D2K which hitched its ride on the coattails of a 30 year-old beloved classic; and a decidedly fun and well received game like Christmas Carol, which came at a time when the market had started to grow, and production values had reached new heights.

 

 

EDIT: I just looked up the sales numbers. We released the Christmas Carol ROM just prior to crossing 200 copies sold. (We were around 180 to 185, it appears, and crossed 200 in January 2013.) We didn't hit 300 until a couple months ago. You could also make an argument that the long tail was indicative of the size of the market, the strength of the title (I think it was a strong title) and/or how (un)successfully we marketed the title. Perhaps a reasonable threshold for ROM release on the size batches I produce would be around 250? I'd have to think about it.

Aha. I just saw this edit come in as I was typing the above.

 

-dZ.

[freewheel]

Has *anyone* ever attempted the ROM-sale only route? Or has all homebrew to date been either 100% freeware, or 100% CIB (with ROMs appearing later on)?

 

I wonder if that just ends up being like "click on my Paypal button to donate" kinda thing, where everyone can just get the ROM for free anyway and the only people paying are those that feel like it?

Edited January 4, 2015 by freeweed

[intvnut]

 

I don't quite agree with your assessment. My recollection of events is that the ROM came out when we reached 200 copies--that was our agreement. And by then sales had already slowed down to a trickle. Keep in mind that in our small market, and with virtually no advertisement to speak of, the long tail starts effectively once the initial release rush ends.

 

It is my belief that releasing the ROM helped sales, if marginally, not only by offering a "try before you buy" sample, but by expanding the reach of the game. I know some people purchased the game after or during one of the CvW Championships just because they played the game and enjoyed it--even after they already had the free ROM.

 

My understanding is that those who buy the game CIB are mostly collectors, those who want to support the burgeoning market, and those who appreciate having a physical product. These people will not be deterred by a free ROM.

 

 

Yeah, I was comfortable releasing the ROM at about 200 units. You actually released the ROM in December ahead of Christmas (and in time for the first CvW, as I recall), which I thought (and still think) makes total sense. As I said, I don't regret it. We didn't actually cross 200 until the following January. At Dec 1st we were still in the 180s and I thought we'd cross 200 by that Christmas. I just wanted to look up the actual data before relying on my faulty memory.

 

We both have anecdotes showing the plusses and minuses of the ROM release, including a CIB collector that missed out because he had the ROM and was in no hurry. The plural of anecdote isn't 'data' though. Unfortunately, homebrew releases are infrequent enough that we can't really run a controlled experiments varying one variable or another, collecting large amounts real data. It's gut feel. My gut feel is we would have gotten to 250 a tad sooner w/out the ROM release, rather than taking all of 2013 to sell 50 more copies. In the end they all sold.

 

In any case, I'm still proud of what we accomplished with the Christmas Carol release and still don't regret releasing the ROM, so don't take anything I said as trying to tarnish that.

 

EDIT: And there's always the "teaser edition" idea. I'm still mixed on whether that helped Space Patrol at all. We could have done that with Carol also, I suppose, to strike a middle ground.

Edited January 4, 2015 by intvnut

[intvnut]

Has *anyone* ever attempted the ROM-sale only route? Or has all homebrew to date been either 100% freeware, or 100% CIB (with ROMs appearing later on)?

 

I wonder if that just ends up being like "click on my Paypal button to donate" kinda thing, where everyone can just get the ROM for free anyway and the only people paying are those that feel like it?

 

In the INTV space? Not that I'm aware of.

[mthompson]

Has there ever been CIB + ROM bundle offered? Would this satisfy the publisher's needs to sell the physical copies while at the same time give players the file they want? I would buy a CIB just to get the ROM, manual, and overlays even though I don't really want to use the cartridge. People who collect wouldn't have to open the box or seal. Not perfect, but could it work?

[+JasonlikesINTV]

If the ROM is easy to dump, you may still run into the issue of free ROM distribution potentially cannibalizing CIB sales. I can't say how prevalent the effect would be, though. Speaking for myself, I'd probably fall into the camp of those willing to pay a small premium to have the ROM added to my CIB purchase (like say, $50 CIB or $60 with ROM included). If ROMs were made available only after say 200 CIB sales, I'd consider buying the ROM for my multicart if priced $10 or less. I also think CIB purchasers should get the ROM cheaper than the ROM only purchasers, so maybe charge $15 for ROM only without CIB purchase. Just my two cents.

Edited January 5, 2015 by JasonlikesINTV

[freewheel]

I'd be more inclined to think $10 ROM, discounted to $5 (if not free) for CIB purchasers.

 

I'm gonna leave aside the thorny issue of DRM and such, but this is kinda-sorta related: how would ordering and distribution be handled? Probably a waste of time and money to set up a distribution system, so would people just Paypal money, and have the ROM emailed to them? Obviously free ROMs have just been links on people's websites - how does Carl handle it for DK Arcade?

[+DZ-Jay]

 

It's gut feel. My gut feel is we would have gotten to 250 a tad sooner w/out the ROM release, rather than taking all of 2013 to sell 50 more copies. In the end they all sold

 

 

Coulda, shoulda, woulda... sure, we'll never know, but my gut feel is the opposite: the game was heavily promoted with the contest and not that many people even took up the free ROM--even one that installs itself with an emulator and no hassle. There were about 20 to 30 contestants in the first competition, most of them people who owned the game already. It is just that small and insignificant market, that most of the retro-gaming community don't even care about the Intellivision--especially an original title that nobody has ever heard before.

 

Hopefully, as the market matures and more games are produced, we will see it expand.

 

-dZ.

[+JasonlikesINTV]

I'd be more inclined to think $10 ROM, discounted to $5 (if not free) for CIB purchasers.

 

 

That's even better!

Edited January 5, 2015 by JasonlikesINTV

[pimpmaul69]

I wish i had kept all my manuals and overlays i used to have. I would definitely buy a rom with the manual and overlay.

[mojotv67]

Probably a waste of time and money to set up a distribution system, so would people just Paypal money, and have the ROM emailed to them? Obviously free ROMs have just been links on people's websites - how does Carl handle it for DK Arcade?

 

For the D2K Arcade ROM, Carl encoded each buyer's personal information into the ROM which could be traced back to the buyer in the event it was distributed or sold (this per the information he included on the mail with the ROM).

[Jeffrey Bouchard]

I would pay for ROMs as well and or with a CIB release. I just wish there is\was a timeframe on rom release.

[First Spear]

Those of us on AA are the most hardcore collectors and buyers around. We go to classic game conventions, we buy shirts/mugs from Keith Robinson, etc.

 

But my guess is that for each of us here, there are 1,000 non-AA people with a passing interest in Intellivision that would pay money for a cartridge release, but those 1,000 people have 1,000 reasons each why they wouldn't buy or play a ROM - working with a ROM implies a level of technical sophistication that most of the game-playing market lacks.

 

 

A ROM has fair-to-good ROI because with minimal marketing a decent (almost known) quantity can be sold. ROI on CIB is harder because the businesses that sell CIBs don't advertise aggressively, and CIB costs a lot more to produce.

 

 

Slightly OT -

I think the Intv Flashback sold/sells well. That covers a lot of the non-AA crowd that just wants to play some Intellivision Baseball. It would be cool to see Intellivision Productions release "Intellivision Runs", say 30 games burned into a cartridge form factor and a hardware video adapter dongle to run a real Intellivision on a modern HDMI television for $30. I think that's an untapped space, partly filled by the Flashback but not quite. There is a group out there with a console in the attic that would play a real cart release, if they knew about it.

 

 

 

[First Spear]

I'm probably in the minority here on AA in that I want carts only. Not to collect, but because a cart game is "instant on fun" and it monopolizes the TV and everyone's attention. Playing a ROM on my computer in a window is too distracting, and it has to complete with Outlook and anything else I'm doing at the moment. The control on the computer is not as good and I don't have the $ or the space to have an Ultimate Adapter adding to all of the other clutter on my desk. Playing on a cart on the TV is also a lot more social when friends stop over, or with the kids - no way they would play Christmas Carol on my PC, but they definitely did on the Intv in the living room.

Edited January 7, 2015 by First Spear

[pimpmaul69]

I'm probably in the minority here on AA in that I want carts only. Not to collect, but because a cart game is "instant on fun" and it monopolizes the TV and everyone's attention. Playing a ROM on my computer in a window is too distracting, and it has to complete with Outlook and anything else I'm doing at the moment. The control on the computer is not as good and I don't have the $ or the space to have an Ultimate Adapter adding to all of the other clutter on my desk. Playing on a cart on the TV is also a lot more social when friends stop over, or with the kids - no way they would play Christmas Carol on my PC, but they definitely did on the Intv in the living room.

there are tons of ways to play roms on a tv. Get a modded video game system and you can play on a tv without using your comp. i use my modded intv flashback to play on my tv. I use a modded wii as well

[Byte Knight]

I would LOVE to be able to play Ms. Night Stalker and Super Pro Tennis on my Ultimate Flashback in ROM form. The games don't look very good with my AV-modded Intellivision on a modern TV, and I have no desire to bring an old 200 lb TV back in my house...