Carts vs roms

[freewheel]

Those of us on AA are the most hardcore collectors and buyers around. We go to classic game conventions, we buy shirts/mugs from Keith Robinson, etc.

 

But my guess is that for each of us here, there are 1,000 non-AA people with a passing interest in Intellivision that would pay money for a cartridge release, but those 1,000 people have 1,000 reasons each why they wouldn't buy or play a ROM - working with a ROM implies a level of technical sophistication that most of the game-playing market lacks.

 

 

You're right in a sense, but that's not really how things work out.

 

The reality is that only the hardcore fans are willing to spend $50+ on a physical copy of a game for a 35 year old hardware platform. Mostly because most of the more "casual" market doesn't even OWN the hardware anymore, but also because $50 for a PS4 game vs $50 for an Intellivision game? Right. But look at all of the various commercial emulated stuff - if it comes on its own hardware (Flashbacks) or runs on an existing system (Intellivision Lives, Nintendo's Virtual Console/XBLA//etc) the casual consumer eats it up with a spoon. Pays real money even.

 

A big challenge for us homebrew types is that most, if not all emulators have pretty strict distribution licenses. If I could bundle a ROM with an emulator executable, config file, etc and just have a "click and run" file for the average person? I bet we'd discover an entire untapped market. But it's rarely done and certainly not on a one-off basis. I believe the Christmas Carol team actually did something like this, but as a freebie, not retail. Not sure what the response was.

 

Given how popular "retro look" games have become in the mobile/app space, and how freely people will throw around a buck on a game they play for an hour while on an airplane, I've often pondered a way to capitalize on this. We already have the look and feel down but we'd have to figure out a good genre of game that lends itself well to touchscreen controls. And figure out a way to license/use an emulator that allows for bundling with ROMs - none of this "find file, load file, config controls" nonsense that emulators usually require. How many do you think we'd sell at $1 a piece?

Edited January 7, 2015 by freeweed

[+DZ-Jay]

 

You're right in a sense, but that's not really how things work out.

 

The reality is that only the hardcore fans are willing to spend $50+ on a physical copy of a game for a 35 year old hardware platform. Mostly because most of the more "casual" market doesn't even OWN the hardware anymore, but also because $50 for a PS4 game vs $50 for an Intellivision game? Right. But look at all of the various commercial emulated stuff - if it comes on its own hardware (Flashbacks) or runs on an existing system (Intellivision Lives, Nintendo's Virtual Console/XBLA//etc) the casual consumer eats it up with a spoon. Pays real money even.

 

A big challenge for us homebrew types is that most, if not all emulators have pretty strict distribution licenses. If I could bundle a ROM with an emulator executable, config file, etc and just have a "click and run" file for the average person? I bet we'd discover an entire untapped market. But it's rarely done and certainly not on a one-off basis. I believe the Christmas Carol team actually did something like this, but as a freebie, not retail. Not sure what the response was.

 

Given how popular "retro look" games have become in the mobile/app space, and how freely people will throw around a buck on a game they play for an hour while on an airplane, I've often pondered a way to capitalize on this. We already have the look and feel down but we'd have to figure out a good genre of game that lends itself well to touchscreen controls. And figure out a way to license/use an emulator that allows for bundling with ROMs - none of this "find file, load file, config controls" nonsense that emulators usually require. How many do you think we'd sell at $1 a piece?

 

I bundled the ROM and emulator into a "click and run" package because in my experience when I released the original "demo" version of the game in ROM, some of the members in this forum had a hard time getting started because they are decidedly not techies.

 

As for the response, well, let's just say that everybody who took the time to download it and install it thought it was slick and cool that I did that. However, since the world and their dog is already used to ROMs coming stand-alone, announcing that "the ROM is free" did not really mean much to those outside the Intellivision community.

 

For the past three years I've been running the CvW high-score championship, and I visit many retro-gaming fora to invite people to join. I can tell you that those who do not already have an Intellivision emulator (which is most of the world) did not want to bother setting one up. When I mentioned that it was a "click and run" affair, they flinched with skepticism. Like I said, those who bothered (which were quite a few), were impressed, but a lot didn't take it up.

 

I think it's a matter of perception, and since most games for 30 year-old consoles do not come in a "click and run" format, it's hard to educate people on the exceptions.

 

-dZ.

Edited January 7, 2015 by DZ-Jay

[First Spear]

I'm not sure about only hardcore fans being willing to spend $50 on a cart, since as far as I can tell there is virtually no marketing done for homebrew/independent releases, from a marketer's point of view. The best Intellivision releases in the last n years have been made by and for the hardcore. Casual buyers have money but they don't buy what they don't know about. I will wreck an old saying by paraphrasing: "small businessman wakes up in an advertised bed, cooks advertised eggs in his advertised frying pan, puts on his advertised clothes and goes to his business where he says it doesn't pay to advertise, until he finally advertises his business as 'up for sale'". I think if the Intv producers and publishers really marketed hard, they might be surprised with increased sales figures.... But that goes to an earlier post on this thread about almost everything we have in the way of numbers is anecdotal.

 

Something else about the potential un/usefulness of CIB releases is the age of the users, not just the hardware console. What's the median age of an Intv game buyer, 38? 41? That age set has a lot of disposable income and actually remembers playing Shark Shark. And they might have a console in their parent's attic, forgotten about until they see an ad on Yahoo about a new Intellivision game...

 

I have also thought about the $1-game thing. You just reminded me to ask an Intellivisionaries Keith Robinson question.

 

 

 

You're right in a sense, but that's not really how things work out.

 

The reality is that only the hardcore fans are willing to spend $50+ on a physical copy of a game for a 35 year old hardware platform. Mostly because most of the more "casual" market doesn't even OWN the hardware anymore, but also because $50 for a PS4 game vs $50 for an Intellivision game? Right. But look at all of the various commercial emulated stuff - if it comes on its own hardware (Flashbacks) or runs on an existing system (Intellivision Lives, Nintendo's Virtual Console/XBLA//etc) the casual consumer eats it up with a spoon. Pays real money even.

 

[snip]

 

Given how popular "retro look" games have become in the mobile/app space, and how freely people will throw around a buck on a game they play for an hour while on an airplane, I've often pondered a way to capitalize on this. We already have the look and feel down but we'd have to figure out a good genre of game that lends itself well to touchscreen controls. And figure out a way to license/use an emulator that allows for bundling with ROMs - none of this "find file, load file, config controls" nonsense that emulators usually require. How many do you think we'd sell at $1 a piece?

[tacrec]

I don't have a console to play games on and I don't have time to play it to invest in one. I play occassionally on my computer and I'm good with it. I would gladly pay for the roms only.

[freewheel]

This is a good thread to discuss this issue in. To all of you saying "I would pay for ROMs" - let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay for ROMs for more of the "B-list" type games? Allow me to elaborate (and hopefully make sense):

 

Making a real "release" is time-consuming, expensive, and rather risky, unless you have a solid-gold title guaranteed to sell a lot. Games like D(2)K or Boulder Dash or Space Patrol because of the name or brand recognition, even if not official. Or games like Christmas Carol that are simply bloody amazing works (these are not mutually exclusive groups of course!). These kind of "A-list" games tend to get put on a cart, maybe with a box, and tend to sell well enough that people keep doing it. However - even then it's risky, so I'm sure we have other almost-as-good games that just never see the light of day simply due to the logistics involved. Maybe even better games, who knows. But let's assume that all of the really good stuff gets put out on cart.

 

So let me as this - when you guys say "yeah, I'd pay for ROMs", are you talking only about the best and most amazing games? ie: the ones that already have a physical release? Or are you willing to be a bit more.. adventurous? There are quite a lot of unfinished, half-finished, and otherwise semi-abandoned homebrew games out there. And there are quite probably many finished games that just never saw a release in any form - cart, CIB, or even ROM. And quite likely some real gems. Would people be willing to gamble $5-10 (no clue about a realistic price here but I think it's in that range) on a ROM of a game that isn't quite Christmas Carol?

 

Because to be honest, I think at least some of us WOULD start selling ROMs if we had any kind of confidence that we could sell more than a tiny handful of ROMs. Especially when we're talking about a game that maybe isn't quite CIB-worthy, because then you aren't risking cannibalizing CIB sales. But I think the perception in the development/publication community is that you'd be lucky to sell 12 copies. Which really makes it not worthwhile to bother coding anything.

 

And of course there's a danger of people creating "shovelware", if it turns out that a half-decent game can sell 100 copies of a ROM. For $500 profit (give or take), I'm sure a lot of people could create some reasonably decent-looking, but shallow, games in a weekend or so. I don't think anyone wants to go down that route.

 

But yeah, I have no idea how to seriously gauge interest in this - but consider me highly interested in the answer. Right now we usually see games get released on cart, then maybe a ROM later. I could see a market where games get ROM sales first, and if there's a lot of demand (ie: the really stand-out games), see a CIB release later. Let's face it, much of the CIB market is just paying for cardboard anyway.

 

Discuss.

Edited January 8, 2015 by freeweed

[tacrec]

I'd feel better dropping $5-10 on a rom and not liking it than wasting $50 and not liking it. Ms Pac and Moon Patrol aren't a gamble for me, but the original games are more of a question. Plus we can get feedback on the games from the forum.

 

And a CIB is not just the cardboard, it's played on the real system. That alone has value I think. I'd like to play on a real system, but it is what it is. I'd also like to play my vinyl records on a record player, but digital is all I can do also.

Edited January 8, 2015 by tacrec

[hero2billions]

I'd gladly pay $20-30$ for an a game in rom format and 5-10 for a b list rom, i paid 10$ for a rom i knew i'd never play just to support the developers. If i knew how i'd buy cib and convert it myself

[First Spear]

I check out the game play of stuff Youtube, whether it's a new Independent or homebrew, or something I never played back in the day (eg Tutankham). If the gameplay looks good, I'll buy the cart. If not, I'll pass. I'm not a ROM buyer normally, but if a developer was looking to make money from ROM sale for an eventual cart release, I'm in; however we all see how expensive it is to make a CIB so I don't know how much a ROM sale can really fund a CIB release....

 

 

This is a good thread to discuss this issue in. To all of you saying "I would pay for ROMs" - let me ask you this: Would you be willing to pay for ROMs for more of the "B-list" type games? Allow me to elaborate (and hopefully make sense):

[snip]

[tacrec]

I view it as like music: it costs money to make packaging for the product, so naturally it would cost more. But that's not practical for some people, so it's also released as a download. You're still paying for the product, it just costs less without the packaging.

[freewheel]

And a CIB is not just the cardboard, it's played on the real system. That alone has value I think. I'd like to play on a real system, but it is what it is.

 

Oh absolutely. I wasn't clear in what I meant - I was referring to all of the upcoming multicarts. Let's face it, pretty soon there will be no reason to buy CIB other than some cardboard. Or if you only ever buy a single ROM. Otherwise, the money you'd save (assuming ROMs sold for say $10) would easily buy you a multicart after about 3 purchases. 2, if you're looking at certain titles.

 

And multicarts play on the real system Which I agree, has HUGE value. Me, I use emulators to try out a game. But real play is strictly on real hardware.

 

[Jeffrey Bouchard]

I would pay for other "B" roms as well. The more to use on the upcoming LTO Flash would be great. Also, if I knew how, I would buy the game for play on the hardware and also dump it myself, however, I have no knowledge how to do this sadly.

[+JasonlikesINTV]

Once I get a multicart I'd consider buying more ROMs. Lots of factors to consider, however. These potential outcomes would lead me to become more selective:

 

If tons of ROM only games flood the digital market.

If "b" quality games give way to "c" quality games.

If "b" ROM developers ask "a" ROM prices.

 

Additionally, I'll buy just about any ROM that Carl or David releases, although I'd prefer CIB

[hero2billions]

Over the last year, i have bought 80% of the roms i've been offered and 0% CIB. Offer homebrews as roms to make more money!

[+BBWW]

Always at risk of shovelware I guess.

 

But I think most people who do this want to make good games.

 

The INTV Basic works in progress look really healthy, compelling, growing and I think some will come to market as CIB, maybe some as Carts and some as ROM releases when final polish is applied.

 

The players here will out any games they don't like or seem overpriced. People can ask what ever they like for a game. It doesn't mean they will sell. The market will decide.

 

I think the state of games for the Intellivision is in pretty good shape. Multicarts will offer even more options. I haven't had Intellivision consoles dropping like flies.

[+DZ-Jay]

Always at risk of shovelware I guess.

 

But I think most people who do this want to make good games.

 

The INTV Basic works in progress look really healthy, compelling, growing and I think some will come to market as CIB, maybe some as Carts and some as ROM releases when final polish is applied.

 

The players here will out any games they don't like or seem overpriced. People can ask what ever they like for a game. It doesn't mean they will sell. The market will decide.

 

I think the state of games for the Intellivision is in pretty good shape. Multicasts will offer even more options. I haven't had Intellivision consoles dropping like flies.

 

Did you not learn anything from Blix?

[+BBWW]

Blix sold what 30 Carts?

[+DZ-Jay]

Blix sold what 30 Carts?

That's the physical limit that we know, but it sparked unreasonable demand. Also, you're missing the weird fetish this community has with variations and even boxes. It seems that any game has a built in customer base of at least 100 copies -- whatever crap it may be.

 

All you have to do is whisper "limited edition" or "serial number" to feed the frenzy.

 

dZ.

[+DZ-Jay]

Dupe.

Edited February 22, 2016 by DZ-Jay

[+BBWW]

No I'm not missing that! I promise.

[atarifan88]

Because I don't have the time or money to go chasing after a used intellivision system let alone try and fix something that goes wrong with it (assuming it doesn't already have something wrong like poor picture output or malfunctioning controllers), I decided to get one of my flashbacks modded. The outstanding results of the Ultimate Flashback including great game play with new "hardware" makes the acquiring of ROMs more vital to me. SInce then, I have purchased many ROMs of games that I was interested in. It is my wish that the homebrew game developers would release the ROMs at the release of the cartridges. Even if the cost of the ROMs have to be half the cost of the physical cartridge, I am ok with that! Having the ability to purchase and download more ROMs into my Ultimate Flashback just makes me another consumer who is willing to support the making of new games for the Intellivision. How can that be a bad thing?!

Edited February 22, 2016 by atarifan88

[+BBWW]

I have those too. Love them.

[7800fan]

The problem is that there is nothing to prevent seedy eBay resellers from making "official" looking repro from released ROMs so some creators are reluctant to just release the ROM even for a price.

 

It may be possible to modify the ROM a bit so it'd show on title screen "Available for free at www.xxx.whatever" and "If you bought this, you were scammed!" Then obfuscate the checksum code a bit so the ROM if the person hacked to remove the unwanted wording would appear to run OK at a quick test but will fail oh say, half way when the checksum triggers and when the ROM is different it will stop the game and put up "THIS GAME WAS ILLEGALLY HACKED!" or something.

 

Editing ROM and looking for ASCII string then changing the offending letters to spaces but most people don't know ASM well enough to figure out where the checksum is hiding or how to change it to accept modified ROM or bypass it.

 

There are a few games I would love to get but missed the limited sales, I paid quite a bit on eBay for Zaku for Lynx and I'd imagine there are people who will flat out refuse to pay more than original amount for games that are no longer available. By making modified ROM available with hidden checksum and sale warning, it might allow us to play some game while waiting for a reasonably priced legit cart to show up and laugh at people who tried to sell illegal repro only to get burned by high return rate due to failed checksum or sale warning screen.

Edited February 23, 2016 by 7800fan

[pimpmaul69]

The problem is that there is nothing to prevent seedy eBay resellers from making "official" looking repro from released ROMs so some creators are reluctant to just release the ROM even for a price.

 

It may be possible to modify the ROM a bit so it'd show on title screen "Available for free at www.xxx.whatever" and "If you bought this, you were scammed!" Then obfuscate the checksum code a bit so the ROM if the person hacked to remove the unwanted wording would appear to run OK at a quick test but will fail oh say, half way when the checksum triggers and when the ROM is different it will stop the game and put up "THIS GAME WAS ILLEGALLY HACKED!" or something.

 

Editing ROM and looking for ASCII string then changing the offending letters to spaces but most people don't know ASM well enough to figure out where the checksum is hiding or how to change it to accept modified ROM or bypass it.

 

There are a few games I would love to get but missed the limited sales, I paid quite a bit on eBay for Zaku for Lynx and I'd imagine there are people who will flat out refuse to pay more than original amount for games that are no longer available. By making modified ROM available with hidden checksum and sale warning, it might allow us to play some game while waiting for a reasonably priced legit cart to show up and laugh at people who tried to sell illegal repro only to get burned by high return rate due to failed checksum or sale warning screen.

not really a problem in the intellivision world. You cant use old boards like other systems. If you ordered boards from one of the few people who make them and you pirated a game you would be outted so quickly.

[+DZ-Jay]

not really a problem in the intellivision world. You cant use old boards like other systems. If you ordered boards from one of the few people who make them and you pirated a game you would be outted so quickly.

Yet, I'm sure that people would flock to purchase them and the damage is done anyway.

[freewheel]

Yet, I'm sure that people would flock to purchase them and the damage is done anyway.

 

So sell the ROM after the physical copies are sold out.

 

Let's face it, people aren't rushing to produce illicit Christmas Carol carts, even though they could. And most other homebrew doesn't even SEE a ROM release, nor a physical re-release, so it's not like there are any sales being cut into there.

 

Other than pride (and intellectual property law, which everyone here follows to the letter of course), I don't see the "damage".