flashjazzcat Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I love all these rationalisations, and I don't say that because I necessarily disagree with them at all. When they eventually invent Star Trek transporters which can duplicate objects at the atomic level, I'm sure there'll be another raging argument over the ethics of making duplicate copies of gold bars and hundred pound notes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 No one can actually own ideas or inventions - and everything is really for the use of anyone who wants to take advantage of it. I would say "No one can actually own ideas or inventions - and everything is really for the use of anyone who wants to use it to make world a better place!" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reds1f14 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I'm waiting for Video61, Kjmann and Peteym to kick in, so they can share their point of view about piracy with us. What makes you think they want to come here and get down to your level and get bashed around on here like you guys did to them on other threads? It is guys like you that turning this site into a sewer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 What makes you think they want to come here and get down to your level and get bashed around on here like you guys did to them on other threads? It is guys like you that turning this site into a sewer. A whole dozen posts from someone who has been here for a scant few weeks, and you feel you can comment on what this place is becoming? That's funny. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSchoolRetroGamer Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 A whole dozen posts from someone who has been here for a scant few weeks, and you feel you can comment on what this place is becoming? That's funny. Exactly, so "Reds1f14" are you actually Video61, Kjmann and Peteym? Because that is an odd comment from someone appearing to be a new member with just 12 posts lol. Fess up, what is your connection? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Is this one of those topics that you read the next morning after you posted it and swear never post while drinking ever again? I'm gonna go ahead and say yes now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reds1f14 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I am neither, not at liberty to discuss the connection. You don't think anybody can read back through threads and see what is going on? I Had an account before that got messed up because of an email service on a site got shut down. Had to make this new account. I speak to Atari users by other means also. So I do know some things going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizWor Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 IP protection is a necessary evil. In a perfect world, all ideas would be free for anyone to use or improve upon. It cost money to manufacture ideas, so governments provided protections designed to allow to the manufacturer to reap a profit. Unfortunately, the reasonable profit was miscalculated. So much profit was made that the idea manufacturers hired lawyers to influence politicians to make these protections unreasonable. In the end, these protections tamped down innovation while providing very little real protection as outlaws had no problem circumventing the protections. Any sense of shame associated with taking these ideas was washed away by the knowledge that the IP holders were not the innovators and their practices were worse than so called piracy. Now RIAA prosecutes kids that share songs that have already enriched them while Microsoft kisses the a$$ of the Chinese government that allows and encourages violation of international rules. George Lucas claims I do not own the disc Empire Strikes Back came on. I only licensed the intellectual property, BUT when my disc will no longer play as promises, he will not replace it. In fact, he will not even let me back up or format shift the media. Here's the thing, though. We agree to these unreasonable terms when we make a purchase. If no one purchased Hunger Games with these unreasonable protections, they would be removed. Go ahead and debate the issue. If you want to change things, stop patronizing merchants with unreasonable terms. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reds1f14 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Are we talking software or audio/video media? If its analog or digital information streaming, it could be played back from one device and recorded by another. Back in the days of video tapes, one just needed two VCRs to copy a movie. Computers can duplicate Tapes, floppies, CDs, DVDs, and BluRay disks easily. VideoGames, Movies, and Audio can be duplicated. The only video game system that had a custom size disk was the Sega Dreamcast that had a 1GB disk, called GD. Cartridges were actually harder to duplicated because EPROM burning equipment is something everyone does not have. Even those modern AtariMax flash cartridges are not compatible with all the existing formats. They only map 8K at a time and many cartridges map 16K into memory. These newer retro cartridge programmers also claim they can prevent their games from running other than the original cartridges they were put on. The easiest trick probably just to see if the cartridge memory area can be written to, and it knows its running in RAM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I would say "No one can actually own ideas or inventions - and everything is really for the use of anyone who wants to use it to make world a better place!" That's right. But you have to keep in mind: People who actually only can handle a Sword to get Horses from others, lose their "better" position, when everyone has a Horse and gets a Sword for free. They would do everything to protect their "better" position. That's why "everyting for everyone" will never work. At least today most Softwarecreators tend to make a free version of their Program. So everyone has the chance to get it and to test/use it. And everyone has the chance to give what he likes to give/ what't it worth for him/her ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) What makes you think they want to come here and get down to your level and get bashed around on here like you guys did to them on other threads? It is guys like you that turning this site into a sewer. If you have sticked to your first sentence I would have thought: ok good question, which I can answer. Your second sentence though is from the same 'level' as what you describe, and that's the first thing I'm going to respond to. If you really would have read that/those thread(s) you are referring to, you would have seen that: 1) I offered help to get their products better (help offered for free!) 2) I offered them real MONEY to pay for their product, even when it was a known bad product with bugs and shortcomings 3) I offered them my signature on an official document to prevent any form of piracy or duplication And now you have the guts to come here and tell ME, that guys like ME, do turn this site into a sewer?!? You have a pretty big mouth sir for a newbie, and your story about your account is a joke. You tried in that other thread to safe the venture game by posting a fake review. Out of nothing, there was suddenly Reds1f14 to write how perfect everything was/is. Sure. If it is true that you are somebody with a messed up account, you could have asked Albert to reset your account, or delete your account, and use the same nickname as before. So be brave and tell us at least which former account you had. I'm curious! The reason because I named video61, kjmann and peteym is because THEY are the only people here on this forum who actually think most users here are pirates. Which is a very offending and pretty kooky statement from their side! And if you like it or not.... I may invite them to this thread, since it is VERY ONTOPIC here. The other reason I posted this is because in the thread you are referring to, those people tried to throw up a smokescreen and tried to let the audience think that I was bashing them and that I was the enemy or so. While I was just trying to help (see the 1, 2, 3 points above). I still am pissed up by that last action! It's pretty weak to say about myself, but since I obviously need to defend myself to people like you, and to translate the 3 points above, since you are not able to conclude that from those points: I am an honest guy, willing to pay for anything, offering and giving help where I can. I really can not appreciate it when people are questioning my integrity the way they peteym/kjmann do. I can not remember I was out-of-nothing-from-a-fresh-start bashing or attacking anybody ever. All my actions where and are always reactions on hideous attitudes of other people. If that is right to do, is another question yes. Perhaps I should have listened to my mother when she told me to be the wisest guy if I had to deal with morons. But I did not, I responded, and I thought that with LOGICAL SENSE, a bit of humor and offering help and even money I was in the position that I could convince people like kjmann, peteym. Pretty naive from me indeed. <- this in fact is the only thing I blame myself. So again: I'm waiting for Video61, KJMANN and Peteym to kick in, so they can share their point of view about piracy with us. I'm very interested how many people they can convince of their right. Edited January 13, 2015 by ProWizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) Cartridges were actually harder to duplicated because EPROM burning equipment is something everyone does not have. Even those modern AtariMax flash cartridges are not compatible with all the existing formats. They only map 8K at a time and many cartridges map 16K into memory. These newer retro cartridge programmers also claim they can prevent their games from running other than the original cartridges they were put on. The easiest trick probably just to see if the cartridge memory area can be written to, and it knows its running in RAM. That's exactly what KJMANN and/or Video61 tend to believe.The most cartridges are probably the easiest to duplicate and to use on other hardware (new generation cartridges) than the original cartridge it was written to. The only cartridges that are so far not possible to duplicate and run on an available alternative (at this moment) are the cartridges that carry games like Bounty Bob Strikes back and Bomb Jake. This last one is taking full advantage of the cartridge. It has a game that would use 320K as xex, that can run now on a 64K computer. For me that is the only valid reason to chose for a cart as game-storage. It needs to be an advantage for the user. Being able to play a huge game like Bomb Jake on a 64K computer justifies that choice. Choosing a cart because you are afraid of pirates is not chosen for the customer, which is a always a bad choice. Edited January 13, 2015 by ProWizard 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseudografx Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Now imagine yourself in the 80's if you had been born on the other side of the iron courtain. There were NO official software distributors, NO game stores and even hardware could be bought only in special shops where you could pay only with special currency that you bought for your (incredibly hard to get) foreign exchange or in the bootleg market. Piracy was the only way to get software for your machine and one of the reasons why user clubs had been established so that computer users could exchange their software with others. This situation lasted until 90's when retail channels with 8-bit stuff had been long abandoned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 It is of course - the digital age - that made piracy the thorn in the side - because with analogue copying - you always got a worse off copy - that got worse and worse with copying. One thing that is never acknowledged - is how everyone is really the same as each other - and how no one is ever that different from each other. The likes of Peter Jackson, George Lucas, etc etc - may complain that their work is being pirated and they are missing out on millions of dollars in their revenue - but it is of course, not them that suffer from piracy - but the smaller companies/developers/etc etc that do. It is the focus on the almighty dollar - that has corrupted this world in so many negative ways. We actually need to get away from the focus on materialism, ie. money and property worth - also on power and control issues. This modern world is so backward in so many different ways - of ideas and concepts, values, etc etc - the modern technology may be so advanced (as we slowly move away from silicon to some other better alternative) - but it is of not much use, when we are so archaic with our concepts and ideas/etc. The biggest threat is always 'ourselves' - how we cannot agree on the most basic of values - to have everyone on the same page - in complete agreement as to what our most basic problems are - and how to deal with it. Some people may think we are very advanced - yet we are so primitive in our so-called values... The most basic values should be - hurt no one - including yourself. Treat people with respect, and they in turn, will respect you. If you bitch and moan - expect the same back. Harvey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Even now I picked in my nose. Now that you have read that, you have to pay. My bank account, you'll get via PM. What ? Why won't you pay ? You're all bad pirates ! Actually I bought more than 200 original games for the A8, but what did it help for? If people want to earn money , they should try to work on a base that offers more potential money. If people want to earn "sure" money, they have to do work that isn't spreadable with any media. If people sit on shoulders of giants, doing their work, they shouldn't blame on the giants when others do the same and the moneyshare doesn't move to just them.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Ya know, most of us are here to discuss getting the most from an old, obsolete computer system. Discussing the economics of such a pursuit seems a little non-productive. I could deliver pizzas for a few days and make more than any retro project ever netted me. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reds1f14 Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) The reason because I named video61, kjmann and peteym is because THEY are the only people here on this forum who actually think most users here are pirates. Which is a very offending and pretty kooky statement from their side! And if you like it or not.... I may invite them to this thread, since it is VERY ONTOPIC here. While I was just trying to help (see the 1, 2, 3 points above). I still am pissed up by that last action! So again: I'm waiting for Video61, KJMANN and Peteym to kick in, so they can share their point of view about piracy with us. I'm very interested how many people they can convince of their right. That's exactly what KJMANN and/or Video61 tend to believe. The most cartridges are probably the easiest to duplicate and to use on other hardware (new generation cartridges) than the original cartridge it was written to. The only cartridges that are so far not possible to duplicate and run on an available alternative (at this moment) are the cartridges that carry games like Bounty Bob Strikes back and Bomb Jake. This last one is taking full advantage of the cartridge. It has a game that would use 320K as xex, that can run now on a 64K computer. I do not think they are coming to this thread, and see why either of them would want to come. I see they post on other threads. If want to say something to them reply to them elsewhere. I am sure people have ways for their programs to figure out they are running from the original cart or a flash cartridge. Probably count the # of banks or how the bank switching writes to that D5 page effect the memory. These guys are crack shot programmers, you think they won't figure this out. Edited January 13, 2015 by Reds1f14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Oh please... are you from the past? I don't think any poxy cart protection mechanisms will present too many problems to those who want to get around them. We live in the age of jailbroken iPhones and hacked Windows Activation technologies, for pity's sake. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Reading through this is interesting. Here is my take: It is a small club. The single most important thing anyone can do is not piss in the pool. Being a small pool, word gets around. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marius Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 I do not think they are coming to this thread, and see why either of them would want to come. I see they post on other threads. If want to say something to them reply to them elsewhere. I am sure people have ways for their programs to figure out they are running from the original cart or a flash cartridge. Probably count the # of banks or how the bank switching writes to that D5 page effect the memory. These guys are crack shot programmers, you think they won't figure this out. 1) "They" are already here, since you are here. 2) I don't want to say something to them, I was responding to the crap you was writing about "guys like me" (See your first post in this thread. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Where there is demand - activity grows in that area. ROMs were thought to be pirate proof? Like the Sega Megadrive/Genesis, SNES consoles etc ... but so-called disk-copiers were manufactured in Hong Kong? and these were rather ingenious devices - which allowed you to copy a cart to diskette and enable disk copies to circulate... Of course - this allowed something positive to happen - homebrew demos/games for these consoles to be developed at last! You could move up to the next generation in hardware and have more multi-coloured sprites than you can shake a stick at... play around with whatever features that hardware had.. flat playfield hardware 3D rotation? As the decades have gone by... and it's up to the whim of the videogame homebrew enthusiasts (like other enthusiasts of so-called other hardware - such as railways/trains, motorcars/bikes/etc) - you can do stuff which you couldn't do back in the day - because it's done for the sheer hell of it, with no monies to be gained from the project - you can get away with a lot more - as long as people see it is done with the utmost respect and awe (and paying homage) - that so-called 'copying' is not a bad thing at all. I am trying being purposefully vague and obscure - but not succeeding - because of a work-in-progress - but you'll see what I am referring to, within a year or so... Even copying can be a good thing - when there is no intention to pirate whatsoever. Harvey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 That's right. But you have to keep in mind: People who actually only can handle a Sword to get Horses from others, lose their "better" position, when everyone has a Horse and gets a Sword for free. They would do everything to protect their "better" position. That's why "everyting for everyone" will never work. At least today most Softwarecreators tend to make a free version of their Program. So everyone has the chance to get it and to test/use it. And everyone has the chance to give what he likes to give/ what't it worth for him/her ... It works like that as long as guys "with Sword and horses" think of people without them as "others". Once you change opinion to "lets give them swords and horses and teach them how to use them so we become stronger", things are completely different. Two guys with swords and horses are better than one imho To be little more on topic... Me making a game and giving source code to other coders, potentially increases number of new games which benefit me also. Now imagine yourself in the 80's if you had been born on the other side of the iron courtain. There were NO official software distributors, NO game stores and even hardware could be bought only in special shops where you could pay only with special currency that you bought for your (incredibly hard to get) foreign exchange or in the bootleg market. Piracy was the only way to get software for your machine and one of the reasons why user clubs had been established so that computer users could exchange their software with others. This situation lasted until 90's when retail channels with 8-bit stuff had been long abandoned. Happened to me... Closest store was in another country (Italy) and you could go there maximum once every year and spend half a year allowance on one budget game... No wonder you could by tapes from guys in the schoolyard. History is repeating... In my country we have every possible tech. requirement to use commercial services for streaming content and games, many services are available... But we still get "Sorry, this service is not available in your country!".... Well... f... you.... Guess what ? Steam works... I buy games from Steam - I don't pirate them.... Netflix ? Spotify ? rest of the bunch... "Not available" - not a problem... Plenty of torrents around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+slx Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Having heard the interview with Bill Wilkinson on ANTIC I am glad I bought (or got bought as a present) those of their products I really used (Action!, DOS XL). I admit that I probably would not have done it had they been available cracked. I bought about 10-15 software titles for my Atari (Star Raiders, Shamus, Protector, Choplifter, Sands of Egypt, Zork II, Letter Perfect, Data Perfect, Spell Perfect, Apple Panic, another adventure, File Manager 800, MAE, Monkey Wrench, ) for my Atari 800 and played most games as pirated copies. Today I do regret that I denied the authors and publishers of games I really liked and played a lot (M.U.L.E. and Seven Cities of Gold above all, Archon, Jumpman, Bounty Bob, Spelunker, Fort Apocalypse) their fair share while giving "copying fees" to German crackers. Looking back I could probably have afforded to pay for the titles I actually liked. I would have dreaded to pay for all the games I longed to play after reading reviews or ads, just to find out what duds they were in reality. On the ST I tried to (and often had to) buy most of the software I used and while I didn't care that much during my Windows years I try to avoid pirated software and pay at least a little for donationware ware since I changed to Macs. I did buy some originals for the old Ataris but while that gives me a little more right to play them it doesn't help the authors any more.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 There's also the argument that it isn't exactly theft because it does not cause a loss of the item. If I steal an apple, you don't have that apple anymore. If I copy a game, the author still has the game and all rights to it. What I've done is affect the scarcity of the game which devalues it (and of course, I'm breaking the law). However, one thing is sure: Not every copied a game is a lost sale. I would have had just a few games and probably lost interest in the system if I'd had to buy each one. My answer to that is simple. Sure, it might not have been a lost sale, but said person still gets to enjoy the experience, so they should pay the going rate for said experience. If they don't agree with the rate, then they don't pay and don't get to enjoy the experience. I'd say there was more justification for pirating games in the pre-Internet era. Today, with many games having demos, trials, or rentals, and there being endless videos, reviews, etc., available to help inform a purchase decision, the argument old argument that you want to "try before you buy" doesn't hold up either. It's outright theft. And in regards to "theft," the fact that they're digital bits rather than a physical item really shouldn't make a difference. As for the other argument justifying piracy back in the day, i.e., it allowed us to experience games we would have never gotten to experience, this is absolutely true, and I'm a good example of that. With today's free or low cost options, I see far, far less justification for it, especially factoring in what I said in the previous paragraph. In fact, as an adult, with three kids, I simply don't pirate. If my kids or I want something, it gets purchased, plain and simple. Between that and all of the free or freemium stuff, there's no lack of content to choose from. Of course, for legacy systems, i.e., systems no longer commercially sold and where the creators can no longer benefit, I have no problem with using ROMs or copies on the hardware. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 My answer to that is simple. Sure, it might not have been a lost sale, but said person still gets to enjoy the experience, so they should pay the going rate for said experience. If they don't agree with the rate, then they don't pay and don't get to enjoy the experience. I agree. I was presenting an argument I've heard over the years about copyright abuse. In hindsight though, I can't say I particularly regret being in and around the pirate culture of the '80s. Trading warez was pretty exciting and the whole scene is still fascinating history to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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