potatohead Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 @emkay Your analogy is crappy because it fails to speak to information dynamics. And you are not saying what I am. Let's be clear on that. If you really did understand and agree with my post, you would not have advanced that analogy. Re: not thinking about it back in the day. Totally. But we are here now and what we do will impact a lot of things. We need to think about it clearly now, or live with the impact of not doing that. @Jet boot How you feel about it is valid. I get that, and understand. You are not the only one dealing in expensive software and experiencing piracy. Problem boils down to clarit on how we feel vs the actuals in play. I'm speaking to the latter in the hopes of improving on the former. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 @emkay Your analogy is crappy because it fails to speak to information dynamics. ??? To everyone, even to you, it is the most relevant dynamics, what you see 1st. If you miss that, we really don't mean the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Yes. Correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Cough... http://recode.net/2014/04/02/why-microsoft-is-giving-windows-away-on-small-devices/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Yes. Correct.LOL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 Sorry, but mankind needs that "total war" presence . It means to have people acting and talking wisely, even if they were utter most aggressive, they start to use their brain instead of starting a war. While they still want to live, it wouldn't make sense to them to start such a war. Man has to turn his back on war in order to have peace - not by having bigger and bigger weapons in order to force a peace. The ordinary public of course, does not want a war. All they ever wanted was to get on with normal living without interference from government(s), and religion(s). Propaganda was used on both sides to get people to go along with the war.. say in the last 2 world wars. War is always madness and the end of civilisation itself. No one wins in any war. If we do not learn from this very basic lesson from our world history - we'll always have war. Children should never play any kind of wargames - because it is not really fun or great to play. War in reality, is killing the other side stone dead - usually to take over their land, etc etc. Those who want war - should go and kill themselves - without involving those who want no part of it. You don't see any leaders today - leading a war - they're chicken and rather dictate to others to do the dirty deed. The old portrayal of a leader leading the charge of an army - is a total lie and cheat. They're usually far away at home, as far away from the front line as possible. The hero story is a lie as well. We need anti-heroes who practice anti-violence - that the old fight or flight response - has to be flight first, and to fight last - when your own life is in danger, with no other alternative left. And not the fight first, then we'll talk afterwards... The same mistakes are being made all over again and again, without learning from world history - or even recent history. The truth needs to be told - if the basic facts are before you - you'll not want to take part in any war, etc etc. 9-11 is a lie told to the world. If the truth is known about this - this would change everything. How a few people would orchestrate a series of events, in which it simply did not happen, as was told... Even the basic laws of physics (never mind the government agencies, etc involved on that day.. did not do their job proper.) did not apply on that day... Harvey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) Man has to turn his back on war in order to have peace - not by having bigger and bigger weapons in order to force a peace. The "bigger" weapons were no problem, as long as they only were used to force discussions. Remove the "almighty" weapons, and wars will be there immediately. The ordinary public of course, does not want a war. All they ever wanted was to get on with normal living without interference from government(s), and religion(s). Propaganda was used on both sides to get people to go along with the war.. say in the last 2 world wars. History has shown that war is wanted by everyone, it's just that a war has to be won to aid the will of the participants, which don't work for all parties War is always madness and the end of civilisation itself. No one wins in any war. The winner gets it all. The winner writes history, even if it's only just what he has in mind and has nothing to do with reality. If we do not learn from this very basic lesson from our world history - we'll always have war. Children should never play any kind of wargames - because it is not really fun or great to play. War in reality, is killing the other side stone dead - usually to take over their land, etc etc. Those who want war - should go and kill themselves - without involving those who want no part of it. You don't see any leaders today - leading a war - they're chicken and rather dictate to others to do the dirty deed. Because they see the problem with all those atomic stuff around The old portrayal of a leader leading the charge of an army - is a total lie and cheat. They're usually far away at home, as far away from the front line as possible. The hero story is a lie as well. We need anti-heroes who practice anti-violence - that the old fight or flight response - has to be flight first, and to fight last - when your own life is in danger, with no other alternative left. And not the fight first, then we'll talk afterwards... As soon as you drop those "allmighty" weapons, you'll see a "world saving dictator declaring a world war" ... The same mistakes are being made all over again and again, without learning from world history - or even recent history. The truth needs to be told - if the basic facts are before you - you'll not want to take part in any war, etc etc. No one wants to die in a war. But you always will find people who tells you that their way changes the world to the right. But they mean "their" right" and they spread hate to people with similar thoughts and needs. 9-11 is a lie told to the world. If the truth is known about this - this would change everything. How a few people would orchestrate a series of events, in which it simply did not happen, as was told... Even the basic laws of physics (never mind the government agencies, etc involved on that day.. did not do their job proper.) did not apply on that day... Harvey I have my own thoughts about 9-11 , but there are no real evidences what happened for real. Also, this extends the forums, where we talk about 8 bit computers. Edited January 15, 2015 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snicklin Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 If there is a company who abuses their position, such as MS and somebody copies their software, I have no problem with this. They charge ridiculous amounts for their OS, create UEFI, force computer sellers to have Windows on their machines and don't even give you a recovery disk. They also give you an OS which is buggy and "forget" to apply EU legislation with their browser choice. They also annoy me as I called their PREMIUM hotline for a software issue at work and they had the gall to tell me that the product that I was asking for EMERGENCY help with was not one of theirs. I pointed out that they'd bought the company 3 weeks prior and so it was theirs to support. They called me back 3 hours later and then mispronounced the software name and told me it was my fault for pronouncing the name wrong (although I'd spelt it out to them). It also took them around 10 attempts to take down my support number as their helpdesk person in the far east with an American accent didn't understand my UK accent (which is quite 'clean' as an accent due to my living abroad twice at the time). So as you can see, I have no respect for this company. That being said, I don't rip them off, I use Linux and free alternatives to theirs. This is the best way to get them back as some websites log which OS's and browsers go to their site and then they report on their usage. They then quote what market percentage that MS has, and the lower that their value is, the better. And don't get me onto Apple, they are no better. I abhor people copying the IP of the small individual. Anyone here who writes a game / item of software needs protection if they want to charge for their product. I've been ripped off too many times in the past by big film studios who hype their film up so much that when you get there it is a big big let down. If somebody else wants to try before they buy, then that is OK with me. Though I would say that if they truly like what they have seen, they should buy the DVD later on. As for me, I've given up on films, they're almost all a load of rubbish. I never understood piracy on the 8-bit though but this is because I was predominantly a cassette based user back in the day. When the games were £1.99 or £2.99, there was no need to copy them. I liked having the packaging too. But I guess that for people around before the budget games where the games were £10-£50, then I could understand (though not condone) people copying software of that price. It was too high, especially for children. If the average wage for an adult was (I am guessing) £30 a day then, then £50 is a lot of money too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) Fixed that for you. The hard, ugly, truth of it is that is an infringing act, not an act of theft. Those actions do not meet the legal test for theft as a criminal matter. You talk about dynamics and such, here I am and my dynamics. I write software for living. When someone gets a copy of my work for free by copying instead of paying for a copy, I lose income. That loss is multiplied when that someone posts a torrent of my work for others to download for free (and it's ironically called sharing when they distribute something that doesn't belong to them to start with), I loose more income. How do you think I can make a living if everybody just copied and used my work like that. We can argue all day long but the bottom line is there is always a loser in this scenario and it is the original author of the work not the people "sharing" his work. If I wanted to give away my work for free for whatever reasons, I would, and that would be my own decision not a bunch of pirate's. May I add an analogy.....? If someone has 111 brooms, it is no problem , if someone steals one broom. For the owner of the 110 brooms, it means to buy new brooms by time. One broome less or more doesn't make a difference, as a broom could break sooner or later. On the other hand, when the neighbour was the "thief" it would mean, he cleans the street that he wasn't able to do before. So your street will be cleaner without any other trouble. At the end the "stealing" means to have your place in a more fitting presence to your company, when new customers arrive. I think you are much better at generating POKEY noise then conducting a discussion on piracy Edited January 15, 2015 by atari8warez 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ZuluGula Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 When someone gets a copy of my work for free by copying instead of paying for a copy, I lose income. That loss is multiplied when that someone posts a torrent of my work for others to download for free (and it's ironically called sharing when they distribute something that doesn't belong to them to start with), I loose more income. Can you calculate this loss and claim it as business espenses when you file your taxes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtariLeaf Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Man has to turn his back on war in order to have peace - not by having bigger and bigger weapons in order to force a peace. The ordinary public of course, does not want a war. All they ever wanted was to get on with normal living without interference from government(s), and religion(s). Propaganda was used on both sides to get people to go along with the war.. say in the last 2 world wars. War is always madness and the end of civilisation itself. No one wins in any war. If we do not learn from this very basic lesson from our world history - we'll always have war. Children should never play any kind of wargames - because it is not really fun or great to play. War in reality, is killing the other side stone dead - usually to take over their land, etc etc. Those who want war - should go and kill themselves - without involving those who want no part of it. You don't see any leaders today - leading a war - they're chicken and rather dictate to others to do the dirty deed. The old portrayal of a leader leading the charge of an army - is a total lie and cheat. They're usually far away at home, as far away from the front line as possible. The hero story is a lie as well. We need anti-heroes who practice anti-violence - that the old fight or flight response - has to be flight first, and to fight last - when your own life is in danger, with no other alternative left. And not the fight first, then we'll talk afterwards... The same mistakes are being made all over again and again, without learning from world history - or even recent history. The truth needs to be told - if the basic facts are before you - you'll not want to take part in any war, etc etc. 9-11 is a lie told to the world. If the truth is known about this - this would change everything. How a few people would orchestrate a series of events, in which it simply did not happen, as was told... Even the basic laws of physics (never mind the government agencies, etc involved on that day.. did not do their job proper.) did not apply on that day... Harvey What thread am I in right now? I thought this was about software piracy. What's with all this political and conspiracy shit that isn't supposed to be discussed in the first place? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 (edited) Can you calculate this loss and claim it as business espenses when you file your taxes? You need an income to pay taxes Edited January 16, 2015 by atari8warez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 What thread am I in right now? I thought this was about software piracy. What's with all this political and conspiracy shit that isn't supposed to be discussed in the first place? If you want to get to the truth of anything - you apply the same analysis - get down to basic facts and the timeline of events. What's the use of any kind of thinking/analysis etc if you don't apply it to everything else. Shit gets passed around - believe it or not - that we all have a distorted view of the world without examing the info ... If anyone has a hardline on piracy - do you apply that hardline on everything else you come across in life? In the end, it is not the money that really matters - but the principle upon which you live. Harvey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 @atari8wares: You are on ignore for very good reason. Do not expect a response from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Well that's where me and the law respectfully diverge - if you download my game(s), and do so without either my permission or the purchase of a licence to use that software you are stealing. I'm curious if you have, or have used, any software for the Atari 8-bit that you don't have the legal rights to use? Is everything you've used either purchased (and still retained), free-ware/public domain? PS. I don't disagree with your statement that copying software without paying the IP owner is illegal. It clear is against the law. I pay for EVERYTHING I use and the rights to exploit it! That's also good business sense, as infringement at the level you are talking about can be very costly. I work in IT, and part of my job (as everyones' in IT) is to make sure that software used by employee's of the company, and installed on company owned equipment is legally obtained and licensed. I pursue this ruthlessly, even with "shareware" and trial software. Sometimes license management at that level is difficult and costly. Luckily a company like Microsoft, instead of suing you, will let you "true-up" and pay for what you are using if you happen to be audited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I'm curious if you have, or have used, any software for the Atari 8-bit that you don't have the legal rights to use? Is everything you've used either purchased (and still retained), free-ware/public domain? No, when I was a child I behaved as a child - my Super Archiver 810 was my best buddy at the Milton Keynes computer club! But conscious piracy now, on current devices and platforms, no I do not.. sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 In the end, it is not the money that really matters - but the principle upon which you live. Harvey You're right there... and my principle says that i shouldn't be taking someone else's property without first asking to him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 No, when I was a child I behaved as a child - my Super Archiver 810 was my best buddy at the Milton Keynes computer club! But conscious piracy now, on current devices and platforms, no I do not.. sTeVe You draw the line at "current" device and platforms? I'm just trying to point out that even some people who have very black and white views often are still rationalizing somehow/somewhere. Having illegal copies of even old Atari software is still illegal and copyright infringement, and is harming the secondary game market (people like Best, B&C and Video61 who put money into purchasing up old stock for instance.) The law is clear (who owns the IP may not be so clear after 30 years though....) What generally do folks here think about illegally downloading an old movie or song? What about E.T.? Ok to download, or must you buy it? What about all those Duran Duran albums you want to listen to now? Ok, or not? Where's the line, and who is it ok to harm? As long as the "author" or primary creator isn't being "harmed" ? Or is the line the current IP holder; if they aren't receiving money from your purchase, it's ok to infringe? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 You're right there... and my principle says that i shouldn't be taking someone else's property without first asking to him... Is there a patent on SIO2PC? (I'm suspecting not.) Or did you mean that you "don't take someone else's property" only if it's protected by law? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Shawn, you point out the impact of crappy law. Current terms aren't optimal. They run long and in a large fraction of cases too long for people to respect them. A young person today would have a hard time exploring the history of software without some infringement, and a lot of money. As for music, the big message is people want to explore that too, and do so on their terms. Napster ruined FM for a lot of people, who found out how much was really out there. Making back catalog music avaliable is the right thing to do and when it is, people buy. But what of the modern acts? Clear conflict of interest there. Taylor Swift may well be out last platinum act. She says streaming devalues music, and from her and the major labels point of view she is right. But is that the goal? It isn't for me. I love to find niches and scenes and really drill down to their influences and get a lot out of it all. When I can buy right from the artist, or their label works in ways that don't get in the way, it is all a good, high value experience. Other examples abound. When we don't put these things into real, accurate terms, we run the risk of ongoing messes not progress to goals that make sense for everyone more of the time. It won't make sense all of the time, but it can be a lot better than it is now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Is there a patent on SIO2PC? (I'm suspecting not.) Or did you mean that you "don't take someone else's property" only if it's protected by law? Nick Kennedy's design was public domain, so there was no need to ask him about using his design. That's the design my (and many other people's) first SIO2PC was based on. My current USB based one is my own design, As far as I know there is no other SIO2PC that is similar to mine. I generally assume everybody's property is protected by law unless it is in public domain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atari8warez Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 What generally do folks here think about illegally downloading an old movie or song? What about E.T.? Ok to download, or must you buy it? What about all those Duran Duran albums you want to listen to now? Ok, or not? Where's the line, and who is it ok to harm? As long as the "author" or primary creator isn't being "harmed" ? Or is the line the current IP holder; if they aren't receiving money from your purchase, it's ok to infringe? My personal view is that if I know a particular work is no longer sold and is not generating any income for it's author, I see no moral problem with getting a copy ONLY for my own use. I still am against distributing it for profit if it is copyrighted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Jefferson Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I still am against distributing it for profit if it is copyrighted. Absolutely, that's too much into the dark side and I think almost everyone agrees with that one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usotsuki Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I'm openly a casual pirate, but I try to avoid the little guys, and I'll actively oppose piracy-for-profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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