Toki Prototype For 7800 Discovered!

[Shawn]

14 hours ago, CPUWIZ said:

The NTSC version needs more space (extra work and code needed), so it is 144K.  I am sure RevEng is just as disappointed as me and others, but we are not releasing it.

 

Even at 144k it's beautiful.

[Andromeda Stardust]

On 1/9/2020 at 10:52 PM, CPUWIZ said:

The NTSC version needs more space (extra work and code needed), so it is 144K.  I am sure RevEng is just as disappointed as me and others, but we are not releasing it.

?

[Lynxpro]

On 1/6/2020 at 4:12 AM, Trebor said:

Although demonstrating what was at least possible, seeing one developer's take on TOKI does not definitively show what the 7800 was/is capable of technically. 

 

For example, the two baseball games on the 7800.  Granted, neither are worth writing home about. 

 

Nonetheless, here is "RealSports Baseball".  Below the pitching, infield, and outfield view is shown.  ROM size is 64 KB:

 

 

A one screen game that plays pretty lousy. 

 

Here is "Pete Rose Baseball".  Below the pitching, infield, and outfield views are shown. ROM size is 32 KB:

 

 

At half the ROM size of RealSports Baseball, not only does the game look much better, it plays better too.

 

Developer abilities along with provided resources and situations (Which were often unfavorable for the 7800), factor heavily into the final game product.

 

In the case of TOKI, it was not even a final product yet.

 

And I'd guess Namco's/Tengen's version of RBI Baseball on the NES probably clocks in-between 64K and 128K and blows them both away.

 

If 7800 RealSports Baseball is 64K, then that Soviet spy ring that we all though Davey and Jack Flack defeated back in early 1984 was still operating into the late 1980s after all.

 

The game was all right. I bought it brand new back in the day. I think I paid $14.99 at Toys R Us for it. It was one of the few games that they had in stock before Federated did. But it wasn't as fun as the primitive original on the 2600. That cheat the 2600 version had where you could steal bases like you were The Flash was so funny and so awesome. I figured it out and never shared it with my dad and it pissed him off so much that he stopped playing any 2600 games after that. 

[Lynxpro]

On 12/30/2019 at 2:34 PM, CPUWIZ said:

 

The BIOS adapter also has dip switches, so I can quickly switch between them.  I currently have standard and 3 custom BIOS'es on the EPROM.  One of them is written to flash (cart BIOS) MCP carts, or program (user area) them.

 

The bottom board is a relay array, that controls every button of the 7800, the LED is infrared and controls my CRT, all of it runs via WiFi and is Alexa controlled.  No Arduino or Pi involved.  The 8x8 matrix is just for fun, because it fit perfectly, displays running dots, until connected to WiFi.

 

 

Speaking of BIOSes, Dan Kramer might be encouraged to sell his BIOSes with their custom boot screens. There's pics of them on the old CyberRoach website...  Not exactly functional but they are interesting and an historical footnote...

[+Propane13]

16 hours ago, Lynxpro said:

There's pics of them on the old CyberRoach website...

 

Can you post a link for the curious?

[Giles N]

So ... 

 

... where (in 3 dimensions), is

 

... the program now...?

 

 

[ongikong]

I think the current location of the game is not the problem.

Someone has to find the actual thread starter and ask him for permission... ?

[Sapicco]

5 years and still nothing. 

[CaptainBreakout]

Toki... we hardly knew ya.

 

Back when Safeways always had a couple of arcade cabinets, I spent a lot of time looking at the attract mode of this arcade game (I was usually quarterless) in Quincy California, while my parents did the grocery shopping.

 

I'm still into a copy on the 7800 if this ever emerges from the vault.

[CPUWIZ]

I can now wash my hands clean off of this disaster, the HDD with the ROM died.

[Tempest]

5 hours ago, CPUWIZ said:

I can now wash my hands clean off of this disaster, the HDD with the ROM died.

My rom is backed up in several locations (as is my entire prototype rom collection for thus such an incident).  While I still can't give it out, the rom is safe.

 

I really need to do that review.   What's the best emulator out there for 7800 right now?

[+SmittyB]

@Tempest I'm glad the ROM is safe as that's what matters even if it's not readily available to everyone.

 

As for the best emulator I think it's a toss up between A7800 and BupSystem. From what I've seen I think BupSystem is more accurate for some timings, but to be honest I don't know how different the accuracy of the emulation is between them. Prosystem is too far behind the curve to be used for much besides casually playing the original commercial releases.

[Tempest]

Got it working under WINE.  Looks like I'm out of excuses for not reviewing this one.

[Greg2600]

9 hours ago, CPUWIZ said:

I can now wash my hands clean off of this disaster, the HDD with the ROM died.

But you can fix anything!!!

[Jinks]

4 hours ago, Tempest said:

My rom is backed up in several locations (as is my entire prototype rom collection for thus such an incident).  While I still can't give it out, the rom is safe.

 

I really need to do that review.   What's the best emulator out there for 7800 right now?

Why not that new JS7800 one. Add it to the roms.. lol

[Tempest]

Does either one of these emulators support screenshots?

[+DrVenkman]

1 hour ago, Tempest said:

Does either one of these emulators support screenshots?

 I don't know if A7800 does by default but generally in MAME there's a MAME.INI file somewhere you can edit for stuff like that. And if you use Windows, of course you can simply press SHIFT-WIN+S to bring up the screenshot too to grab a window, or WIN+PrtScrn to take a full-screen screenshot.

 

 

EDIT: I read the actual manual for A7800. F12 will take a snapshot and save it a folder called \snaps

[Tempest]

I figured it out.  A7800 has F12 as the screenshot key.  It just stores it in a different directory and doesn't say it took a screenshot so I never noticed until I read the instructions. 

 

BTW this game is HARD with the keyboard.  If it wasn't for save states I'd never get far enough to see all the levels.

[Shawn]

On 6/12/2020 at 3:17 AM, CPUWIZ said:

I can now wash my hands clean off of this disaster, the HDD with the ROM died.

 

You know damn well it's copied and saved by more than a couple people. All of which would send you

the original prototype file back or the updated and fixed version in an instant. Silly old fart. Plus, You

really think Willard is ever coming back to the scene to do anything with this? I'd take the best against it.

 

 I still have that last contact info to try but with the state of the world I figured it was very inappropriate to

do so over a video game he clearly doesn't give a shit about. That and I could be sending a message to someone

that is no longer with us. I'm not getting the kinda egg on my face that would come from such a thing and

a potentially grieving widow. 

[gambler172]

50 minutes ago, Shawn said:

 

You know damn well it's copied and saved by more than a couple people. All of which would send you

the original prototype file back or the updated and fixed version in an instant. Silly old fart. Plus, You

really think Willard is ever coming back to the scene to do anything with this? I'd take the best against it.

 

 I still have that last contact info to try but with the state of the world I figured it was very inappropriate to

do so over a video game he clearly doesn't give a shit about. That and I could be sending a message to someone

that is no longer with us. I'm not getting the kinda egg on my face that would come from such a thing and

a potentially grieving widow. 

Hi my friend

i totally agree with you and afaik if you own a prototype....this does not mean you have the rigjts 

on a game......so Willard does not own this rights...for sure

Edited June 13, 2020 by gambler172

[Tempest]

2 hours ago, gambler172 said:

Hi my friend

i totally agree with you and afaik if you own a prototype....this does not mean you have the rigjts 

on a game......so Willard does not own this rights...for sure

No, but a few of us were given the prototype rom for various reasons (bug fixing, reviewing, etc.) with the explicit instructions not to give it out to people.  He may not own the rights to it, but I'm going to stand by his wishes as they were part of the price for having access to the prototype.  Although in reality I'm almost 100% sure that he wouldn't care if the rom was given out at this point as it appears he'll never do whatever he had planned for it.

 

That being said, my Toki review is coming along quite nicely, I hope to have it done by tomorrow.   Since I can't give it the rom, the review is more of a complete walkthrough than a simple review.  I hope to give people a sense of what the game is like even if they can't actually play it.

[gambler172]

1 hour ago, Tempest said:

No, but a few of us were given the prototype rom for various reasons (bug fixing, reviewing, etc.) with the explicit instructions not to give it out to people.  He may not own the rights to it, but I'm going to stand by his wishes as they were part of the price for having access to the prototype.  Although in reality I'm almost 100% sure that he wouldn't care if the rom was given out at this point as it appears he'll never do whatever he had planned for it.

 

That being said, my Toki review is coming along quite nicely, I hope to have it done by tomorrow.   Since I can't give it the rom, the review is more of a complete walkthrough than a simple review.  I hope to give people a sense of what the game is like even if they can't actually play it.

How about finding the programmer????

If Atari cancelled the projects,he should have the rights about Toki....

About Willard.....i tried to contact him many times,

but never got an answer....

And in the Lynx forum,they wait for him since many

years.....so...allbabout him is said.....

 

[+DrVenkman]

7 minutes ago, gambler172 said:

f Atari cancelled the projects,he should have the rights about Toki....

That’s not actually how any of this works, usually.

 

The programmer is generally creating a “work for hire,” even if he’s an independent contractor. Unless he had a contract with the publisher that provided for rights to revert to him under particular circumstances, the rights would remain with the publisher for whatever code ever got written. Plus, Toki as a game and concept was created by a Japanese company that would still have rights to the concept, character designs, etc. Now, “Atari Corp.” doesn’t exist as such anymore, but their assets including IP would have been passed along to whomever bought them along the way (e.g., likely the current entity calling itself “Atari”), but the license to the Toki character and concept has probably (*) long-since expired.

 

The good news for modern day hobbyists, homebrew authors and enthusiasts is that, with the exception of Nintendo, must modern companies don’t bother with small-potatoes retro hobbyists - it would cost them far too much money and good will in the nostalgia-driven retro community to put a stop to what we enjoy. We should all be grateful for that and just enjoy what we can get. 

 

(*) Having not seen any such license, I’m going from professional experience. That experience tells me that nearly all IP licenses are limited in nature and must be periodically renewed. For instance, that’s why Rockstar last year had to issue a rather giant patch to GRAND THEFT AUTO IV. All the licenses to in-game music had expired and some of those licenses cost too much for Rockstar to renew for such an old game. 

[Jinks]

I would say give him 1 year from now and then release it publicly. Every now and then ask him if he does not agree to those conditions let you know. 

I would post the rom here at that time. In AA database on emulators etc. Al could make carts and hold onto the money after materials cost for another year than pocket the money. Maybe at least pay out  the people that put time into debugging etc. and that is it. 

I really feel he does not care or has passed away so it could be released right away but I would set a deadline where if you do not claim it too bad.

You leave something at someone's house for storage after enough years they they try to get ahold of you and if you don't answer after awhile they do not have to keep it for you forever. 

 

This is the same thing. 

 

[RevEng]

We've already been over this in this thread. We're not holding back the Toki ROM because we're thinking Willard has claim to the copyright. We're holding it back because we gave our word to Willard we wouldn't share it, as one of the conditions for receiving it.

 

The only way this gets released (from my hands anyway) is if :

1. Willard allows it.

2. Someone finds the rom from another source.

3. We learn Willard is dead.

 

If I ever go through this again with another proto, I'll insist on some kind of "dead project" terms, where a lack of communication for an extended period will release me from the agreement. Live and learn.