Flojomojo Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 One more thought, has anyone else consider that this project might be more infringing been original? If I were them, I would seriously question the advice I'm getting from that "top patent lawyer in Silicon Valley." 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leods Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 The MiST has an ARM chip, it's used to program the FPGA on startup from files on the SD card (and later to switch cores at runtime). So they've made nothing at all? They're just asking a premium for putting what everyone else aready done in a Jaguar Shell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 So they've made nothing at all? They're just asking a premium for putting what everyone else aready done in a Jaguar Shell? Plus, they want to move slowly and secretly, to protect their privacy, while using other peoples money. Crowdcharts shows another negative day for them. I wonder if enough people back out, could they get back down to zero? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amstari Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Funny typo on the Indiegogo comments. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenegg Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) The translucent case isn't there to protect the design, it's there to disguise the fact that it's a COTS dev board with a few random PCB's and cables sitting on top to look like a prototype. The other PCB's on the desk have been thrown on to make it look 'busy'. It's absolutely laughable.I'm not familiar with COTS boards. Can they be used to meaningfully prototype the type of system they're proposing? There aren't any negative comments about this video on FB. Either the people who're commenting don't know any better or they're deleting negative posts. Edited September 26, 2015 by goldenegg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) This was posted on FaceBook by John Carlsen, but I haven't seen it posted here, unless I missed it. https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-carlsen/retro-vgs-first-update-from-john/10153654884377520?hc_location=ufi If what he says is true about draining his bank account, then that really makes me feel bad if this thing doesn't end up happening. O.O Hi. Thank you for posting this. The link is behind a login wall on Facebook, and given the volatility of RetroVGS related comments on Facebook, it could easily be "here one minute; gone the next..." #2: We have working prototypes. For software, our game developers already have working prototypes and many even already sell finished products that run on classic platforms. For hardware, I just shot a quick video showing a little bit that won’t risk our patent rights. It isn’t much, but it shows our processor communicating via USB and driving simple high-resolution digital and analog video output. Most of our circuits are already in our enclosure, but I still have lots of ribbon cable and hand-wired circuits hanging out the back. If you want to watch it, you can view it on YouTube at < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi10...>. Could anyone clue me in as to the contents of the linked YT video? I don't need an archive of it or anything, but if someone has seen it, a brief summary of what it contained would be nice. The RetroVGS guys behind seem to have a severe case of diarrhea of the mouth, but like any drunk with a bad hangover, are failing to clean up their regurgitate as quickly as it is being produced. Secondly, all this "patent" talk has got me concerned. It is very clear to me that the RetroVGS train has completely derailed itself, but if patents for some tech is approved, especially something vague like vintage consoles being emulated on FPGA with cartridge port adapters, then the RetroVGS guys effectively become patent trolls when their product fails to deliver. They had a partnership with Kevtris which is now canned and likely are aware of his plans to release his FPGA console. They could eaily use said patent to bully Kevtris or others who want to release homebrew retro platforms or Retron5 type projects (that don't suck) powered by FPGA. I imagine there's a metric ton of "prior art" filed in the patent application, but if said components are hooked up or connected in a novel, non-trivial way, it may hold up in court and stifle future homebrew innovations. Said projects are generally created on shoestring budgets and driven by love for the hobby rather than corporate greed. Creators share with the community for feedback and posterity rather than hide it for fear it gets "stolen." Sad day if Kevtris or someone else releases a viable product where RetroVGS failed and get threatened with legal action. Even if the patent is "unenforceable," it would have to go to court first to proove that. Homebrew guys cannot afford to defend themselves against the like. I'm going to close with one final remark: This RetroVGS quagmire reeks so hard at this point, I'm tempted to not even support future ventures such as Retro mag year 3 or others. It's like these guys have prooven their incompetence a thousandfold. Why should I support such backstabbing and unprofessionalism? Edited September 26, 2015 by stardust4ever 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcdev Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 I'm not familiar with COTS boards. Can they be used to meaningfully prototype the type of system they're proposing? ©ommercial (O)ff (T)he (S)helf board. A dev/eval board. Can be used to prototype; on their own generally prove nothing, with hardware extension then yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcdev Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Looking at CrowdCharts, the video appears to have had the opposite effect to that which they hoped! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philyso Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) After seeing this "prototype" video and the other one on their IGG page, I feel there is something shaddy with J. Carlsen. I mean, Mike is somehow sympatethic, he talks too much, is passionate (although making money is clearly the primary goal here) but just like a car salesman is, nothing really harmful since you don't really fall for his blatant seller techniques. But this John guy, I can't tell exactly why but there is something weird about him. Maybe it's because he reminds me some software architect at my work place who was similarely bragging about his priceless experience and industry references (and actually got fired once he led the company to lose tons of money on a failed project). And this post where he is trying to do damage control then ends up "regretting" Kevtris unprofessionalism is so ironic when all this campaign has actually been ruined by their own unprofessionalism. Edited September 26, 2015 by philyso Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 English is not my primary language, so I hope someone can enlighten me: Now that following the Retro VGS-subejct has become my main hobby, I have come upon many occasions where 'Jaguar' is pronounced, well, strange. There's the standard 'Jaguar' but then there is the odd 'jag-wire'. I hear this a lot from different people, including Mike Kennedy. Where does 'jag-wire' come from? Is it as correct of a pronounciation as 'jaguar'? /Nicholas Do the math linguistics: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnovaX5 Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 They enjoy name calling anyone who disagrees with them. I for example am a hater troll, I'd quote the FB reply but it has since been deleted. Pat and Ian from the CUPodcast are "Drunken Commentary". Kevtris is unprofessional. I'm sure the list goes on. Yes, I posted a lot of "negative comments" and "hate" as they liked to call it on their facebook page. I however didn't see either as negative or hate, I saw it as questions. Questions that for the most part still remain unanswered. Yes, I trolled Kevin Bow, James Martin and Chris Cantrell pretty hard at points in their overzealous fanboy comments. I however never once trolled the RVGS team themselves. I'm just shocked by the outcome of this whole IGG. I strongly feel this would have been fully funded on day one had they kept to their original vision. A 16-32 bit powered gaming console that had new and old titles on it. The sudden announcment of this project being able to play all retro cartridges via a pin converter is what made me re-evaluate it. I dislike emulation and at the time I didn't understand FPGA. After reading about it more, I thought it was a pretty cool idea, albiet not one that I would buy into. I feel like the damage is done. No ammount of name dropping can save this project at this point. Canceling it and relaunching as a Kickstarter at a later date most likely wouldn't work either. This project wasn't derailed, destroyed, harmed by "haters" or "trolls", Mike Kennedy and John Carlsen did all the damage with tasteless comments and pathetic defenses to a project that they told very little about. This circus proved one very important thing. The Curse of the Jaguar molds and tooling are very real. Now we know what killed everyone at the end of Indiana Jones when the Ark of the Covenient was opened. It was Jaguar molds and tooling in that box. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg2600 Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi10cm1pQXM I read John's blog, and he has good answers, but I question why they weren't part of the IGG? Edited September 26, 2015 by Greg2600 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Monkey Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi10cm1pQXM I read John's blog, and he has good answers, but I question why they weren't part of the IGG? They hadn't cleaned up the dinner dishes in time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_convoy Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 I'd feel bad for John who seems pretty heartfelt in that Facebook post (which is full of somewhat important stuff that should be all on their IGG page and etc.)... but he took a shot at Kevtris for no reason. KEVTRIS IS NOT THE REASON FOR YOUR PROBLEMS. Blaming others for what's gone down here isn't working. The cat even starts off in a contrite manner, y'know? I don't get it. This whole thing is very, very strange. They clearly weren't ready to do this. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thierry Henry Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 So it's safe to say the strategy of: Jag shells ??? Profit! hasn't quite worked out for them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 I could be mistaken on this, but I'll throw it out into the aether anyway: I think when Kennedy talks about prototypes, he's referring to boards that fit inside the Jag shell and resemble the final product. "A very stripped-down version of our Retro VGS prototype" might be Carlsen speaking in layman's terms; as he apparently taught some classes. His "speak to me in Captain Dummy talk" helped me understand at least what was connected to what. Before IGG happened, we asked to see even the evaluation boards. Maybe that's what we're getting, even if it's a day late and dollar short? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulBlazer Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 The FB post from John is interesting and if he's telling the truth -- and I have no reason to believe he's not -- then it just shows how messed up this project is. He actually sounds afraid of Mike and doesn't want to show him everything he's working on! A company can not be successful if the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. And having Scott from RGR weigh in about how much that Mike has changed over the last couple of years....yeah, I got a wiff of that from what happened with Mike leaving RGR earlier this year and all that. It's really sad things have gotten to this. Yes, Kickstarter has some double talk going on with their wording on prototypes. Still, if they were allowed to post this on there, they SHOULD have. Not only would get you more exposure, but you don't get charged unless the funding reaches it's goal, so there's nothing to loose by backing. I've backed many a project on there that I strongly felt wasn't going to reach it's goal cause it didn't cost me anything, I didn't take any risks, and it's a way to show the developer 'hey, I'm interested in this, I think it's a good idea' at the very least. Still, even if this was a perfect project, the price range is still too high for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_ocelot Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) I know there's vey little enthusiasm out there for playing new games on cartridges, and a lot of valid points in support of that viewpoint, but the thing is that if they did produce an FPGA-based system that was capable of playing legacy cartridges for classic systems, then you'd get the aforementioned capability for free! I don't understand the fascination (or fetish) Retrogamers have with playing cartridges. It's like a selective memory for the 'good old times' that isolates one aspect of the period but ignores everything else happening at the same time that was crappy. Cartridges were a necessary evil for delivering content because other forms of media were too expensive, fragile, complicated, or just plain didn't exist. Consoles back in the day were successful IN SPITE OF cartridges, not because of them. How about those terrible RF modulator boxes you had to screw into the back of your TV? You know, the ones that buzzed with interference whenever someone on your street so much as turned on a blender. I can fully understand using a CRT over an LCD due to lag, but would anyone willingly pick RF over composite? How about those awkward joysticks that were just a little too big for your ten year old hands? I don't see anyone singing the praises of the 5200 or Colecovision controllers these days like they were some fine wine. Today, your 40+ year old hands are more comfortable with the USB joypad and custom button macros -- but the game HAS to be on a cartridge or my whole retro experience isn't 'pure'! It's a no-win situation for the RetroVGS. They want to make a console that will fill a percieved niche but it also has to conform to the industry standards to make it usable in a modern living room, including the ability to display on a hi-def TV. Gamers sort of expect conveniences like being able to turn on the whole shebang wirelessly from the couch -- and then in a weird display of creative anachronism have to get up and walk across the room to plug in a cartridge. Either you are hardcore retro or you are weekend warrior retro. Two very distinct markets that I personally don't think a one-console Swiss Army Knife can straddle. Edited September 26, 2015 by rob_ocelot 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) It's been more than 12h since the John video and yet nothing on the IGG main page or anything official in the FB page outside John comment itself (rather than a special link or something). Who owns the account on the IGG and FB? Likely Mike? Given how eager he has been to link interview videos and the other articles this one should be first and foremost and in bold yet it isn't. What do you think it's going on among them? Do you think they have even tried to establish some sort of formal venue (LLC or otherwise) to make clear responsibilities and such? EDIT: nevermind, Mike woke up and put the "official" link on the FB page ... but you have to log in to "see more" Edited September 26, 2015 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AE35 Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Coming off as impatient, any news on the Retro VGS podcast with all three? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_ocelot Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi10cm1pQXM I read John's blog, and he has good answers, but I question why they weren't part of the IGG? Watching that video reminds me of this: Power goes in here and video games come out the other end, here. Simple, really. Edited September 26, 2015 by rob_ocelot 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 The FB post from John is interesting and if he's telling the truth -- and I have no reason to believe he's not -- then it just shows how messed up this project is. He actually sounds afraid of Mike and doesn't want to show him everything he's working on! A company can not be successful if the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. I think it's a good bit of candor from Carlsen. I've worked with a CEO/sales guy who had no filter. He'd take it as fact and swing into hype mode. It wasn't that he was lying; it's just that he'd latch onto more buzzwords or ideas. The project manager was very cautious about telling him what ideas we were trying in order to improve our product. So, I think it's a plausible excuse. There's a whole lot of stuff that needs to happen between Carlsen saying, "And I think we even could have cartridge adapters" and Kennedy saying, "We will have cartridge adapters". Kind of like a lot of stuff needs to happen between PikoInteractive saying, "sure, we'd be on your system" and it actually becoming true (silly details like contracts or how they would be ported). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mux Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) At this point I'm just following the thread to see how much deeper they can dig the hole they're digging. WRT to the prototype video, as others have already stated, its off-the-shelf devboards stuck together with a jag-shell covering it to avoid what board is being used (looks like a digilent board actually). The whole thing looks staged as fuck. An old analog tek-scope (seriously?), an aoyue SMT soldering station and other shit that has absolutely nothing to do with it. I would have been fine with them showing a single DE1 or whatever if what was running on it was relevant. The demo looks like one that came with the board and isn't relevant at all IMO. Why go through all the trouble to create a window / blob system, add a USB stack etc. This is nothing but a last-ditch effort to attempt to save face and 'prove' they have something which seems to have exasperated the whole thing.. Btw, I first though he said 'the power supply is there to supply 5v power' to the proto but it sounds like he says 'to supply VOLT power'.. WTF? [Edit: if you blow up the clip, the screen shows a complete desktop environment. Kudos! (sarcasm)] -Mux Edited September 26, 2015 by Mux 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Algus Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 I don't even know what to think after reading John's comments. Alright so Mike isn't being misled by his hardware guy. His hardware guy stopped telling him things because he doesn't have an off-button. That actually does make sense to me but if you're not telling the project lead anything because he can't or won't understand it, that's a bit freaky. Did they ever stop and go, "Hey Mike, this is what we got but maybe you shouldn't announce it yet because X" Alright so apparently they have some sort of prototype that works (despite early claiming it would costs tens of thousands to build or whatever) and they didn't think it would be a good idea to sit Mike down and discuss what they did and did not have for the sales pitch? There are only three guys on this team. How the hell do they expect to raise almost 2 million dollars if they can't get together and present a unified front? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenixdownita Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 (edited) It does sound "to supply VOLT power" .... must have been too giddy while filming. EDIT: must have been the Jag fumes, he's way too close to the toxic shell Edited September 26, 2015 by phoenixdownita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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