Commercially successful Jaguar

[AtariORdead]

I know there have been a bazillion responses so far, but I don't personally believe (with my limited knowledge of everything) that the Jaguar was doomed from the start. At least not due to its technology.

 

I know it's complicated to develop for, but assuming it had proper financial backing, a good working relationship with the 3rd party (which it DIDN'T), and they didn't try to simply port over Atari ST games (un-improved)... then the Jaguar could have done well. The PlayStation clearly was more advanced... but the Jaguar could have held on a bit longer (and been profitable) at least long enough to hold out for it's replacement (Jaguar 2 or whatever)

Atari had barely enough money to get games out of the door and promote the Jag. No way thay had any more money to put anything else towards it, never mind even attempting R&D on a follow up.

[82-T/A]

Guys, you're getting wordy and worked up on why it would have failed... The point of the original post was a commercially successful Jaguar.

 

That's why I said "...but assuming it had proper financial backing"

 

 

I questioned whether or not I should have even responded to this thread, haha... but saw it already had 10 pages, and figured I'd just throw 2 cents into the bucket.

 

 

EDIT: There were ST Laptops?!?!

Edited April 25, 2015 by 82-T/A

[Lost Dragon]

Look up STacy....

 

:-)

 

Next i guess you'll be wanting the quotes from Atari about the possibility of turning the Jaguar into a handheld console (honest to god there were such quotes...) :-)

[82-T/A]

Look up STacy....

 

:-)

 

Next i guess you'll be wanting the quotes from Atari about the possibility of turning the Jaguar into a handheld console (honest to god there were such quotes...) :-)

 

It looked pretty cool!

 

Yeah, the STacy looked a bit better than the laptop I saw. I wish they had something like a MEGA-4 ST, but portable... would be pretty cool. Oh well... would just be more crap in the house. I enjoy living a minimalist lifestyle.

[Lost Dragon]

Regarding talk of a Jaguar Handheld, this was in the very early days of Atari bigging up the Jaguar, Sam Tramiel quoted as talking about plans for Jaguar 2, Jaguar 3, Jaguar computer etc...he talked of how the current Jaguar chipset required a lot of power, chips themselves got quite hot, but maybe in a couple of years if things progressed chipsets could be re-engineered, power demmands reduced etc....

 

 

Richard Miller also chimed in, it seems, regarding the concept, saying main problem would be the battery life.If a potential hand held Jaguar used the same batteries as the Lynx, you'd get about 20 mins of life from it.

[Pete5125]

Atari had a good enough system to compete with what was out at the time Sega/SNES/TG16, and even make games close to Neo Geo/3D0

 

The advertising was from the same company that put Sega on the map.

 

In the mid 90's all we cared about was how many bits, Sega told us this was important it was why the Genesis does what nintendon't

 

So all in all Atari did have some decisions correct, of course this is a company that stock price is less than a dollar a share at that point in time so they have very little money, They had to launch a new system and the hype had to be huge...

 

Atari was not forward thinking at all, the launch games and amount of systems released was to low, Their is a newness factor that would sell a ton of systems with being 1st kid on block to have new system.

 

whatever money Atari had should of went to Mortal Kombat 3 being not only a pack-in, but Atari bringing the arcade home, then go after the top 10 fighters at the time, Street Fighter@ etc.

spend the rest on sports games at least 2 big games for every sport.

 

After that, if the same awfull game library that Atari released wouldn't mater because those where the 2 main categories at the time...

 

Also if an add on is needed a LYNX adapter launch day one to say already 80 games available

 

Launch Jag as bring the arcade home, turn Jag2 into a 3D/ CD base NUON type console

[Lost Dragon]

'Jaguar does appear to be a last-ditch effort from Atari.Atari's problem has been marketing.The Design of their products is good, but their marketing is appalling.They seem to think that the kit will sell on it's own, but nowadays it's not like that'

Andy Morrison, director of Creation Station talking about the Jaguar in it's very early days and his thoughts seem echoed by a lot of the people involved in the industry at that time i've seen quoted in the Press since or 'spoken to' myself since.

[Zerosquare]

Also if an add on is needed a LYNX adapter launch day one to say already 80 games available

Yeah, I'm sure that 16-color games, with a resolution that's roughly 3 to 4 times smaller than the NES' one, would have been a strong selling point for a 64-bit console in 1993.

 

But that's not enough. What they really should have done is complete the Atari 2600 emulator. With its library of hundred of games, the competition would have been instantly leapfrogged!

Edited April 28, 2015 by Zerosquare

[Clint Thompson]

Yeah, I'm sure that 16-color games, with a resolution that's roughly 3 to 4 times smaller than the NES' one, would have been a strong selling point for a 64-bit console in 1993.

 

But that's not enough. What they really should have done is complete the Atari 2600 emulator. With its library of hundred of games, the competition would have been instantly leapfrogged!

 

At the time, being able to play Lynx on a TV screen is exactly what I wanted. Hell, it's still what I want and now there are modifications that are allowing them to be hooked up to a VGA monitor. Although I don't think an adapter day one would have been exactly ideal but it would have been cool at some point. As far as MK-III being a pack-in, huh? MK-III wasn't even released until the Jaguar was close to being dead and even then, they did include Doom in some consoles IIRC, which may have helped pushed a few off the shelves.

[Lost Dragon]

My good friend, Frank Gasking (of GTW Fame) was chatting to Jeff Minter at Play (Blackpool UK) over the weekend, they got talking about the Jaguar and it's commercial failure:

 

'Jeff said on Saturday that he felt that had Atari focused on producing games with gourad shading and not trying to do texture mapped games, it could well have done a lot better with the Jaguar. But he agrees that it was a great machine if in the right hands.'

 

 

These are the views of Jeff hoimself of course...but i thought it'd be nice to share them...always good to get views of people who coded on Jaguar for a living at the time....

Edited May 4, 2015 by Lost Dragon

[kool kitty89]

In my opinion, there was nothing inherently wrong with the jaguar hardware. ( Like anything there are always trade offs ) - but I think the only thing that may have made any difference would have been to make it a CD machine from day one.

( The Jag CD is barely more than an audio CD anyway - so the cost wouldn't compare to PC CD-roms at the time ). Even if that resulted in a higher price at launch it would still be cheaper than 3DO and much more capable than PC engine CD or Mega CD.

The real advantage would then be that CD's are far cheaper and far less risky in inventory terms - so more publishers may have joined.

Hardware wise, ignoring a ton of other variables and missed opportunities on the R&D end from 1989 to 1993 when the chipset was frozen for production and indistrial design of the PCB, case, etc were laid down for mass production, the only big engineering mistake seems to have been heavily banking on DRAM prices dropping rapidly. The Jaguar was screwed over by the same situation as the ST in 1988: DRAM shortage/crisis stagnating (and even INCREASING) prices of existing DRAM grades. (that more than anything else killed the ST's momentum or its supremacy in the 16-bit computer market in Europe ... or potential edge over the Amiga in any market -lack of major hardware updates didn't help, and Sam taking over as CEO in 1989 ... )

 

It's compounded by the fact that that single-bank 2MB arrangement also squanders some very nice features of the chipset and for a cart based system, RAM capacity isn't all that critical (yes, nice fast memory to work in AND decompress into, but there's moderation). Cutting down to 1 MB and lumping another MB onto the CD drive later on would have been a far, far safer bet and very practical for the time. Using 4 128kB 16-bit wide DRAMs for one 512 kB bank and a single 512kB 16-bit wide DRAM for the 2nd bank would be great. (allow a lot of interleaving with 68k and DSP accesses in the 16-bit bank, speed up blitter texture rendering a ton, and retain peak bandwidth for OPL-intensive games and minimal framebuffer scanning overhead) You'd even still have room to Z-buffer with some freedom. (tougher if you interleaved with the framebuffer on a 64-bit phrase basis -ie 4x 16-bit screens rather than 3x- but still doable if most/all textures are in the other bank and you're not using many sprites)

 

With interleaving they might have been better to stick with 25 MHz rather than pushing to that extra 26.6 MHz given it'd allow 4 clock random access cycles rather than 5 for better interleaving and synchronization with 68k cycles. (lose a little on peak FPM bandwidth, but gain a lot on average performance and latency) Plus you can use 12.5 MHz rated 68ks and save a little bit.

They probably could have cut more than $25 of the raw component costs, and a good deal more when scaling that up to final retail distribution pricing (Kskunk said a save rule of thumb is double, but it's obviously more complex than that in real world terms). Managing a $199 price point for the promotional test market in '93 and $149.99 for a bare bones core-system arrangement for the 1994 launch might have been doable then.

 

ROM is in a separate bank as well and wouldn't screw with DRAM cycle timing, so having the DSP mainly limited to ROM fetches might have been one more way to minimize bus strangling. (for games using the DSP purely for sound -hard to do much else given its slow bus logic, ROM would be fine for streaming samples from for sample based stuff -rather than wavetable synth using ROM and scratchpad RAM alone)

 

 

Hell, dropping the RAM content AND going with a CD-ROM based machine from day one probably would have made sense for the time too, Atari apparently had problems negotiating for cheap enough drives and controller chipsets but they probably could have compromised more on that to make it to market sooner. (licensing that Phillips CD controller chipset was a bad investment anyway, better to buy off the shelf until they have enough volume to merit long-term investment like that) Flair had already embedded a CD-ROM decoder in their more modest Slipstream 3 ASIC, so taking that as a priority sooner should have allowed it to be crammed into JERRY as well ... though its existing UART bugs don't make that promising. (not sure why they didn't go cheaper/simpler with JERRY and use an up-clocked flair DSP, save a ton on silicon and leave less space for bugs -maybe allow use of simpler/faster to engineer gate array logic to get the bugs smoothed out quicker than standard cell)

Using a 1x rather than 2x speed drive is a given for a 1993/94 timeframe too. (keeping the total system cost close to the Sega CD's price would have been a nice marketing angle ... new 64-bit machine CHEAPER than the combined cost of a Genesis + CD bundle ... let alone 3DO)

 

 

They critically failed to introduce the Jaguar to the UK (or mainland Europe) in a timely manner ... striking the London and Paris test markets was a big blow there, but failing to ramp up distribution for the 1994 launch was the real nail in the coffin. (rather than trying for a nationwide US launch they probably should have focused on their strongholds ... places with remaining market recognition and/or relatively cheap/dense distribution and viral marketing potential, I think California might have been on that list, or at least select regions thereof, and the UK was a big big win if they wanted to actually make money on the system -there's bleeding money on marketing to try and make you system flashy and mass market worldwide, and then there's compromising to produce a semi-niche low-budget next-gen product that's at least profitable and has the potential -if you're lucky- to make it big if that market sector pans out to bigger potential ... and you have the investor backing and management to back it up -they needed another Michael Katz type manager at that point ... pulling another 7800 level success or then some)

 

 

 

That said, they also could have just kept the Jaguar in development longer and used the simpler, cheaper single-chip ASIC Slipstream 4 design Flair also had ready by 1993 (1992 as well, but there were multiple revisions and the Slipstream archive site only has the 1993 V 3.3 manual available -the 1988 and 1989 versions of the prototype and production 16-bit slipstream are there too, but nothing on the 1990 or 1992 revisions) Less powerful but critically cheaper and simpler 32-bit system targeting a 386SX though I believe (like the Jaguar) able to swap big and little endian modes and support a variety of CPU types. (swapping that 386SX for a cheaper, more elegant 68000 would probably have been the natural solution) It supported dual DRAM banks and FPM access as well, but no CRY color or 64-bit stuff, just a blitter, DSP, I/O hardware (including CD-ROM decoder), video controller, and memory controller. (it used 18-bit RGB paletted and 5-6-5 RGB direct color with gouraud shading/lighting and color blending done using that rather than CRY methodology -I'd have thought going 4-4-4-4 RGBY would have been a simpler extension to the older Slipstream configuration and simple 4-bit additive based color blending and lighting ... and an easy option for a 4-4 C/Y palletted 256 color arrangement with fast shading, but they went more typical highcolor or SVGA-like it seems)

 

See: http://www.konixmultisystem.co.uk/index.php?id=downloads

 

It'd be really interesting to find the missing Slipstream developments from the time period during the Jaguar's development too, especially something to fill Atari's massive 1990-1993 console market gap better than the existing Panther or 8086 based Slipstream 1.06 of 1989 could have done -the latter DID push the alternate budget market angle with floppy disk software targeted and did have pretty notable developer support already AND pending interest from Lucasfilm Games. (as it is, I'm kind of surprised Atari commissioned the Jaguar rather than settling for the simpler Slipstream ... or didn't funnel Flair's engineering expertise into the ST's chipset enhancement/consolidation in 1989-1992 leading up to the Falcon's release, or MEGA STe for that matter)

 

I say 1990 gap due to the 7800 declining heavily in 1989 and nearly dropping off the map in 1990 in the US. (though it was just getting its very late start overseas)

 

 

If you haven't looked at it before, the Slipstream Archive page also added the manual for the 1989 8086 (not 8088) based production Slipstream 1.06 design with tweaks and bug fixes. (including 16-bit DRAM interface and 16-bit bus latch for the 8086 to interleave memory cycles rather nicely -rather than halting it during active display as the 8088 prototype did)

And the Slipstream 4 (Rev 3.3) lists copyrights of 1988, 89, 90, 92, and 93; '88 is the 8088 prototype's date and '89 is the 8086 production version, but the '90 and '92 revisions are unaccounted for. (as is 'Slipstream 2' and 'Slipstream 3' naming conventions ... unless the 8088 to 8086 transition marked Slipstream 2, in which case that still leaves 3)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit:

Just quickly glancing at the last couple pages of this thread, there's some blatant misconceptions going on (or possibly trolling, not going to bother guessing which ).

 

The 7800 was NOT a failure and Jack Tramiel did NOT try to 're engineer the company into a computer company:

 

Warner liquidated Atari suddenly and without warning in July 1984 (4th of July weekend of all things) with James Morgan and the rest of Atari upper management (let alone other staff) uninformed and left in chaos ... Tramiel and co. had also not been informed by Warner how poorly/rashly this was being managed ... or point out that James Morgan should be contacted ASAP to cooperate with the transition. This left a confused mess for Tramiel to deal with when he began reviewing the liquidated assets of the then-defunct Atari Inc. ... and staff that had not been notified that the company they worked for no longer existed (a legal mess to given all the breeches of contract ... really big SNAFU on Warner's part)

 

Warner ALSO failed to include the 7800's license/rights in the sale, which cost nearly a year in renegotiation and litigation over this until it was smoothed out in early 1985.

 

Tramiel's company (Trammel Technologies Ltd. ) took on Atari's old assets and was renamed Atari Corporation in 1984. He brought Mike Katz in (former president of Epyx and later president of Sega of America) in to develop Atari Corp's new games division in 1985 to build up marketing/distribution and new software development for the 7800 and 2600. (or rather he brought Katz on for games management/marketing, and Katz convinced Tramiel to establish a separate division for that) It was during that time that Katz also realized Nintendo had exclusive contracts with most Japanese arcade companies and decided to primarily pursue American computer game publishers. (and leverage his relationship with Epyx heavily)

 

The 7800 was a market success for Atari Corp, holding the second highest market share (above the Master System, behind the NES) from 1986-1988 (with 87 and 88 being very strong years for hardware sales, though '87 probably the market-share peak given Nintendo's massive increase in sales in '88). 3.77 million were sold in total between 1986 and 1990, 3.76 million of that being sold through 1989. (sales dropped off drastically in 1990 with under 100k sold)

 

See: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/MattMatthews/20090526/84050/Atari_7800_Sales_Figures_1986__1990.php

 

 

Jack Tramiel stepped down from his rol as CEO in late 1988 (Sam taking over and Jack staying on in the less hands-on chairman of the board) and Mike Katz left in early 1989, went on an extended vacation from the industry only to be pulled out early by Sega's Co-founder David Rosen (Founder of Rosen Enterprises -one of Sega's original parent companies and Chairman of Sega America) and became president of Sega of America shortly after the Genesis's launch. (he orchestrated the Genesis Does campaign, established a working relationship with EA, built up Sega's sports lineup, among other things)

 

It's also notable that in late 1988, Rosen had been in negotiations with Jack Tramiel and Katz to distribute the MegaDrive/Genesis in North America. (in large part due to Katz's success with the 7800) Katz favored it, but Rosen and Tramiel couldn't agree on terms. Katz was also gone by the time the Lynx was on the table (ironic given his connections to Epyx) so he had no hand in building up its launch or form factor. I assume that the combination of the Panther being in development (possibly alongside an ST/STe derived console) and the offer only extending to North America (leaving a conflict of interests in Europe) contributed to Tramiel and Rosen's disagreements. (honestly, the loss of Katz and Jack's management talent was probably a far bigger blow to Atari Corp than failing to secure that license ... between that loss of management and the sting of the 1988 DRAM crisis, the ST never regained its momentum, and I can only imagine how Katz might have contributed to the Lynx or development of the Panther -or work with Martin Brennan and John Mathieson from Flair)

Edited November 29, 2015 by kool kitty89

[AtariORdead]

Lets say the Hardware was easier to use, and Atari had more financial backing.

 

The big problem IMO is simply that most of the companies developing for it were average. None of the big hitters were there and at that time it was the Japanese companies that were drawing people in.

 

even left as it is, If Capcom, Namco, Square, and Konami had backed it, that would have made a difference.

[Pete5125]

You really don't get how many retailers where burned by the videogame crash, Atari at the time still had a bad taste in most people mouth, Atari stuck with the 2600, into 1992, KayBee toy stores, Hill's, Toys R' Us etc. still had old 2600/7800 games into 1994, I remember a box of 2600 games, Asteroids and Pac-Man, that said Take 1 get 1 Free.

 

This made getting the Lynx into stores hard, they thought that battle for 3 or 4 years, then gave up with again liquidation of everything Lynx, leading into yet another system that was not going to sell as good as Nintendo or Sega.

 

For a retailer this would be the fifth system in the last 10 years with Atari's name on it that, well wasn't a hit wasn't a NES, SNES, GAMEBOY, or a Sega Genesis(Master System wasn't a hit, but Sega came up with 2 devices(Master System adapter for Genesis and Game Gear) to try to sell through old inventory and a 3 rd Master System/w Sonic attached.

 

Atari was viewed as a poor man's system, that never really cared about quality of game titles.

 

That was perception, so they had to launch a powerful machine, they did that but didn't have enough machines to launch in the US, let alone Europe where their was less competition from Nintendo and Atari actually was viewed as a strong computer company their.

 

They need good Games and Good Press, again Atari Alienated the press by not giving away systems and games to reviewers, the 1st batch of games, where mainly awful, all missing something, looking 16 bit, etc. then the following year their was a 6 month period with hardly any games being released, once they finally got games being released again, they where just 16 bit games with slightly better graffix.

 

I really don't know what else could be done, in their situation...

[Zerosquare]

...

Beware, everyone. HE's back.

[Crazyace]

Hardware wise, ignoring a ton of other variables and missed opportunities on the R&D end from 1989 to 1993 when the chipset was frozen for production and indistrial design of the PCB, case, etc were laid down for mass production, the only big engineering mistake seems to have been heavily banking on DRAM prices dropping rapidly. The Jaguar was screwed over by the same situation as the ST in 1988: DRAM shortage/crisis stagnating (and even INCREASING) prices of existing DRAM grades. (that more than anything else killed the ST's momentum or its supremacy in the 16-bit computer market in Europe ... or potential edge over the Amiga in any market -lack of major hardware updates didn't help, and Sam taking over as CEO in 1989 ... )

I don't think the ram cost was that important - Atari just didn't sell enough systems at the launch price, and publishers weren't willing to commit.

 

It's compounded by the fact that that single-bank 2MB arrangement also squanders some very nice features of the chipset and for a cart based system, RAM capacity isn't all that critical (yes, nice fast memory to work in AND decompress into, but there's moderation). Cutting down to 1 MB and lumping another MB onto the CD drive later on would have been a far, far safer bet and very practical for the time. Using 4 128kB 16-bit wide DRAMs for one 512 kB bank and a single 512kB 16-bit wide DRAM for the 2nd bank would be great. (allow a lot of interleaving with 68k and DSP accesses in the 16-bit bank, speed up blitter texture rendering a ton, and retain peak bandwidth for OPL-intensive games and minimal framebuffer scanning overhead) You'd even still have room to Z-buffer with some freedom. (tougher if you interleaved with the framebuffer on a 64-bit phrase basis -ie 4x 16-bit screens rather than 3x- but still doable if most/all textures are in the other bank and you're not using many sprites)

 

With interleaving they might have been better to stick with 25 MHz rather than pushing to that extra 26.6 MHz given it'd allow 4 clock random access cycles rather than 5 for better interleaving and synchronization with 68k cycles. (lose a little on peak FPM bandwidth, but gain a lot on average performance and latency) Plus you can use 12.5 MHz rated 68ks and save a little bit.

They probably could have cut more than $25 of the raw component costs, and a good deal more when scaling that up to final retail distribution pricing (Kskunk said a save rule of thumb is double, but it's obviously more complex than that in real world terms). Managing a $199 price point for the promotional test market in '93 and $149.99 for a bare bones core-system arrangement for the 1994 launch might have been doable then.

 

ROM is in a separate bank as well and wouldn't screw with DRAM cycle timing, so having the DSP mainly limited to ROM fetches might have been one more way to minimize bus strangling. (for games using the DSP purely for sound -hard to do much else given its slow bus logic, ROM would be fine for streaming samples from for sample based stuff -rather than wavetable synth using ROM and scratchpad RAM alone)

Would it have made that much difference to the games? Also I dont think the price was the issue at launch.

 

 

Hell, dropping the RAM content AND going with a CD-ROM based machine from day one probably would have made sense for the time too, Atari apparently had problems negotiating for cheap enough drives and controller chipsets but they probably could have compromised more on that to make it to market sooner. (licensing that Phillips CD controller chipset was a bad investment anyway, better to buy off the shelf until they have enough volume to merit long-term investment like that) Flair had already embedded a CD-ROM decoder in their more modest Slipstream 3 ASIC, so taking that as a priority sooner should have allowed it to be crammed into JERRY as well ... though its existing UART bugs don't make that promising. (not sure why they didn't go cheaper/simpler with JERRY and use an up-clocked flair DSP, save a ton on silicon and leave less space for bugs -maybe allow use of simpler/faster to engineer gate array logic to get the bugs smoothed out quicker than standard cell)

Using a 1x rather than 2x speed drive is a given for a 1993/94 timeframe too. (keeping the total system cost close to the Sega CD's price would have been a nice marketing angle ... new 64-bit machine CHEAPER than the combined cost of a Genesis + CD bundle ... let alone 3DO)

 

Having 2MB ram would be important for a CD only console - You can easily take 450K just for a double buffered 320x240 16 bit screen + Z buffer.

 

 

That said, they also could have just kept the Jaguar in development longer and used the simpler, cheaper single-chip ASIC Slipstream 4 design Flair also had ready by 1993 (1992 as well, but there were multiple revisions and the Slipstream archive site only has the 1993 V 3.3 manual available -the 1988 and 1989 versions of the prototype and production 16-bit slipstream are there too, but nothing on the 1990 or 1992 revisions) Less powerful but critically cheaper and simpler 32-bit system targeting a 386SX though I believe (like the Jaguar) able to swap big and little endian modes and support a variety of CPU types. (swapping that 386SX for a cheaper, more elegant 68000 would probably have been the natural solution) It supported dual DRAM banks and FPM access as well, but no CRY color or 64-bit stuff, just a blitter, DSP, I/O hardware (including CD-ROM decoder), video controller, and memory controller. (it used 18-bit RGB paletted and 5-6-5 RGB direct color with gouraud shading/lighting and color blending done using that rather than CRY methodology -I'd have thought going 4-4-4-4 RGBY would have been a simpler extension to the older Slipstream configuration and simple 4-bit additive based color blending and lighting ... and an easy option for a 4-4 C/Y palletted 256 color arrangement with fast shading, but they went more typical highcolor or SVGA-like it seems)

The slipstream would have trouble matching the SNES graphics capabilities in 2D , although it may have made a better StarFox

[NeoGeoNinja]

Beware, everyone. HE's back.

 

I have no idea what this means (as haven't been here all THAT long), however, what I will say is: f*ck me... get your "SPECTRUM-o-meter" out for the lads!

[kool kitty89]

 

I have no idea what this means (as haven't been here all THAT long), however, what I will say is: f*ck me... get your "SPECTRUM-o-meter" out for the lads!

I'm just known for very long, often (at least partially) rambling posts. Don't worry, I'm not one of the more ... uh ... temperamental members of the community. (I'd like to think the opposite, really, I got along pretty well with Gorf back when he was still hanging around, I learned a lot from him, Atariowl, CrazyAce, and Kskunk -Kskunk probably most heavily on the actual electrical engineering and hardware design end of things)

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think the ram cost was that important - Atari just didn't sell enough systems at the launch price, and publishers weren't willing to commit.

 

Would it have made that much difference to the games? Also I dont think the price was the issue at launch.

Honestly, if Atari was in a sound financial situation to launch the Jaguar in 1993/94, then yes, dropping a bit more and eating the added cost would be fine, but then waiting for a mass release in 1994 and avoiding the pre-release PR stunt in '93 would have been possible too. Throwing in an added 512 kB DRAM would be better either way though, especially if the 'addition' came down to more RAM or a more potent CPU (68EC020, Cyrix/IBM 386/486+cache, or 386DX -no cache but at least bumping JERRY onto a 32-bit wide bus). Both would be nice, but there's still going to be serious real-world cost constraints. (for 1994, a 25 or 26.6 MHz Cyrix 486DLC + additional 1 MB 32-bit bank of DRAM would be really nice and probably not going crazy with cost, but probably pushing it a bit -it MIGHT have been cheaper than using a 68EC020-25, though) The 68k+2.5 MB arrangement is probably the safer bet though, ideally with another 6 months or so to clean up bugs and spin off revised TOM and JERRY parts. (plus cut a little off JERRY's cost with a 128-pin 16-bit bus part rather than the 144 pin package)

 

x86 would be really nice for source-ports of assembly language PC games of the time, maybe speeding up DOOM's development too. (I'm tempted to suggest a 386DX again for that JERRY bus boost too ... or a Cyrix or IBM 486SLC) X-Wing and Tie Fighter along with Lucas Art's adventure games would be really nice on a Jaguar CD. (Tie Fighter's smooth shaded lighting engine would be perfect for the Jaguar's 3D)

 

And yeah, the added 512 kB DRAM is more for blitter benefit than CPU, and you don't NEED a 1 MB 32-bit bank to make good use of a 32-bit wide CPU+JERRY interface. (just use the 2 MB block for that, leave the 512 kB 16-bit block just for blitter textures)

 

I'm tempted not to suggest the bottom-barrel 386SX given the more limited advantages over the 68k. (25 MHz 386SX might have had some merit though ... but the added cache on the Cyrix and IBM parts just make those so much more useful -Cyrix had more second sources and had their SLC on the market much earlier in volumes than the faster, larger-cache IBM counterparts, so probably the more realistic option -they were on the market by the time the preproduction Jaguar dev systems hit in '92, so a fairly real consideration, especially if Atari could get a deal for down-binned parts otherwise not very marketable)

 

I also just kind of like Cyrix in general, neat company at an interesting time.

 

 

 

Oh, right, and they also probably could've kept the 26.6 MHz timing AND dropped DRAM cycle time to 4 clocks if they'd bumped up to 70 ns DRAMs rather than 80 ns. (better option than dropping back to 25 MHz unless you're also using 25 MHz rated CPUs -and don't want to overclock)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having 2MB ram would be important for a CD only console - You can easily take 450K just for a double buffered 320x240 16 bit screen + Z buffer.

 

 

The slipstream would have trouble matching the SNES graphics capabilities in 2D , although it may have made a better StarFox

I was thinking of 1 MB in terms of what the Sega CD had to work with (512 kB program RAM + 256 kB of word RAM -sometimes used as a render buffer for the graphics ASIC, depending on the mode used), and thinking in terms of PC games typically using 640k or 1 MB up to 1993 .... but 4 MB minimum got pretty common right after that and 2/2.5 MB would make ports way, way easier.

 

And yeah, Slipstream was more a suggestion of having SOMETHING to field, but the Panther might've been a better option there (just not with 32kB) ... I suppose if they got a really, REALLY good deal on the Ensoniq DOCII, used 128 kB SRAM + 64 or 128 kB DRAM for the soundchip, it'd be usable as-is (no redesigns to the custom chip) per the 1989 Panther prototype. (128 kB + 128 kB was probably the smarter move given how cheap 128k DRAMs were at the time ... ) They were using 35 ns SRAMs on the prototype for SOME reason, though. (and lots and lots of 100 ns SRAMs for the ROM emulation bank ... 2 MB of SRAM ... 16 128kx8-bit chips)

 

And yeah, the 1989 Slipstream might have managed a better Star Fox (or Starglider III -or Return of Starglider as was the working title). Some of the developers were pretty scathing in interviews on it, but that was the 8088 prototype with something like 1/3 or less real-world CPU performance (way worse bus contention), plus a MOD player would take way less DSP time than FM synth (and sound nicer), so less contention for sound vs 3D there too. (that said, a 16 MHz 68000 might manage a better than SNES Star Fox too, and with 128k you'd have room for a framebuffer sized object in the Panther -and the majority of CPU time available due to the DMA-light nature of framebuffers vs many sprites ... using hardware scaled sprites for a fair amount of stuff would probably be wise, too though)

 

I've been rather pessimistic over the cost of the Ensonic chip, but it'd be a pretty sweet set-up if affordable.

 

Slipstream is nice if you like the idea of a floppy disk based console, though. (probably good for Wolfenstein style games too ... then again, so would the Panther ... 32 colors vs 256 colors though, or more likely 16 colors dithered to simulate 256 colors -or ... 136 colors, 160x200 effective screen size) Oh, and Wing Commander 1 and 2. (3 would be a good fit for the Jaguar CD) The Slipstream was also ready for mass production in an at least usable form in 1989, the same might not be true for Panther. (and if the work to 'fix' Panther was more than say ... tweaking the Slipstream to take a 12 MHz 286 or 68000, it might not be worth the difference)

 

 

 

Oh, and floppy-wise, probably not worth worrying about backwards compatibility on the console front, so Jaguar could potentially be the same regardless of anything preceding it. (including media -using a simple SRAM+battery backup save system on the jaguar would probably be fine too ... preferably in memory card format, and a basic slow 32kx8-bit SRAM would be fine for that -the Saturn managed to fit lots more save blocks in that than a 128k flash card on the PSX, and save much faster ... shame it was integrated and not in a card format -and the 512 kB save-cart was way too expensive)

 

 

 

A huge chunk of this is off topic yes, but I think it's important given the Jaguar's success was crippled by Atari's financial situation in 1993. Even a mediocre (but profitable) market success in 1989-1993 would have been a world of difference for them. (7800 level success should have been more than enough ... probably enough to keep the ST/Falcon and Lynx afloat too -both had plenty of potential left, Atari was just too hamstrung to manage all of that at once ... chicken-egg need-money-to-make-money sort of scenario -ie a bit more buffer to get through the roughest spots and they could have pulled out of the downward financial and management spiral and the Lynx and computers could have remained assets along with the Jaguar ... and Slipstream/Panther in the budget-console market) They totally could have ridden on cost/size reduced Lynx variants (with improved screens and battery life) into the late 1990s. (a lower cost lower-power non-backlit screen model would be wise too, but color LCDs weren't good enough for that until about 1996 I think ... had they gone grayscale back in 1989 with color optional, it would have worked, but doing that after the fact isn't practical -developers don't include features for such so games look wrong in black and white -16 shades of gray would be pushing it in 1989 too, but better than the GB's 4 shades would probably be possible ... maybe 8 or 16 with the condition that anything NEEDING good visibility would use higher contrast and anything subtle might or might not actually be visible)

[swapd0]

It doesn't matter if you put more RAM, the biggest problem with the jaguar is the performance, the blitter can't draw a single triangle and you waste a lot of cycles drawing it scan line by scan line.

 

Also you can't write a list of commands (like with OP) and tell the bitter to draw them, so you can process the next frame while the blitter it's busy drawing.

 

At the end you waste a lot of cycles waiting for the blitter to finish or the blitter is bored waiting for new data (less parallelism).

[atarian63]

I don't think the ram cost was that important - Atari just didn't sell enough systems at the launch price, and publishers weren't willing to commit.

 

Would it have made that much difference to the games? Also I dont think the price was the issue at launch.

 

 

 

Having 2MB ram would be important for a CD only console - You can easily take 450K just for a double buffered 320x240 16 bit screen + Z buffer.

 

 

The slipstream would have trouble matching the SNES graphics capabilities in 2D , although it may have made a better StarFox

As a dealer at the time is WAS the dram issue and a refocus on europe, they were in the lead Atari vs Amiga at the time.

[skip]

I vaguely remember chatting online to Vince Valenti of JV Games / Towers II fame (at least I think it was him, it could've been the author of Missile Command 3D, but I'm pretty sure it was Vince) in about 1996. He suggested three things that could've effectively doubled actual 3D (and I assume, consequently, impact 2D) performance. From my relatively dim memory of the time, I believe they were:

- use a 68020
- increase the 4K executable code cache thing to 6 or 8K.
- remove a few of the obvious chipset bugs.

That's it. Oh, I remember he mentioned the completely lame development environment(s).

As someone mentioned above though, if Atari were smart (even given what hardware they actually did release) they should've courted and thrown money at two of Capcom, Namco, Square, or Konami. A single Street Fighter II or a Secret of Mana with enough enhancements to show that the Jag wasn't simply a SNES or MegaDrive would've doubled or tripled the number of sold units alone.

Unfortunately (and I can't remember where I read this but I suspect it was here on AA a few weeks ago) someone who worked for Atari at the time said they really, legitimately, didn't care about the quality of titles. They were just happy to, in that second year especially, pump out the 16 bit ports to bolster the number of games out there...even if they were getting shitty reviews.

Edited March 28, 2016 by skip

[Lost Dragon]

@Skip: It might of been the likes of these you saw:

 

"Getting Lynx titles out the door was important, but it wasnt critical like it was when the Jaguar hit the market. It keeps coming back to time, and giving the Jaguar the time it needed to get the first round of titles where they needed to be,and even more importantly the development environment time to mature was not as important as getting the first 64-bit console to market."

 

 

"Graphically, there was a lot of it is good enough decisions that were made to hit the hard date for retail availability. This game like most of the Jaguar titles could have done with another six or nine months of tuning and polish before being released to retail."

 

 

http://www.grumpyoldgamers.co.uk/index.php?/topic/4212-the-carrie-and-ted-tahquechi-interview/

 

 

A lot of the Jaguar developers i've spoken too (well had email exchanges etc) say similar things as Ted. Reviews appeared not to matter to Atari, they simply need titles out there and in the numbers.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Lost Dragon

[skip]

Close actually, it was the BJ West interview

http://www.grumpyoldgamers.co.uk/index.php?/topic/3980-the-bj-west-interview/#comment-33783

[Lost Dragon]

:-)

Ahh... so it was the B J West one instead.

I went for the most recent, but yep, lot of coders/artists/producers etc from the Jaguar's commercial period state the same reasons the games sadly turned out the way they did and it doesn't paint a very pretty picture of Atari and it's handling of the hardware.

It has made me chuckle over the years reading folks write articles etc stating that if only Atari UK had been able to secure more units for the UK Launch...the situation would of been so much different for the Jaguar, the ST was still strong in the UK (it wasn't).

You start to chat to those that actually worked on the games, you soon become aware that Atari needed to of done things very differently for the Jaguar to of been looked back on a lot more fondly than it often is these days.

[Clint Thompson]

@Skip: It might of been the likes of these you saw:

 

"Getting Lynx titles out the door was important, but it wasnt critical like it was when the Jaguar hit the market. It keeps coming back to time, and giving the Jaguar the time it needed to get the first round of titles where they needed to be,and even more importantly the development environment time to mature was not as important as getting the first 64-bit console to market."

 

 

"Graphically, there was a lot of it is good enough decisions that were made to hit the hard date for retail availability. This game like most of the Jaguar titles could have done with another six or nine months of tuning and polish before being released to retail."

 

 

http://www.grumpyoldgamers.co.uk/index.php?/topic/4212-the-carrie-and-ted-tahquechi-interview/

 

 

A lot of the Jaguar developers i've spoken too (well had email exchanges etc) say similar things as Ted. Reviews appeared not to matter to Atari, they simply need titles out there and in the numbers.

 

I remember just turtling through the whole Checkered Flag source code and it revealed at large that the team (all of 2 guys) coding the game was really just learning the hardware and could definitely do for some major optimization. There is a lot of scary wording used in that game remark-wise and it's no wonder it's such a choppy, shitty-controlled game. Then you just see all the extras that just burden the system and it's too much. I know it's a'bit off-topic but what is Checkered Flag anyway, only 16 colors? Seriously...

Edited March 28, 2016 by Clint Thompson

[Lost Dragon]

There was simply far too much hype and unrealistic expectation built up around Checkered Flag.Atari understandably needed to get the press behind it, but bloody hell, those adverts with the mock-up screens promised a great deal and with Rebellion being such a small development team, diving straight into new hardware with weak development tools, it was never going to end well.

 

They've openly admitted the issues during development in interviews with RVG etc, but Atari did nothing to stop the press building the expectation levels...

 

Likes of C+VG claiming game was running so fast it had to be slowed down to make it playable, was exactly what Atari with it's stupid Do The Math/64 Bit hardware, marketing angle must of been after.

 

Game seemed to be another tick box of design:

 

A Virtua Racing clone...weather effects, camera angles....

 

Check on all the above.

 

Playable?

 

Never mind that deadline approaching, press adverts for it out and running, ship it......

 

And so it went on for release after release.