analmux Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 A good mix of 3D calculations , hardware features, and some trickery as with the C64... would result in jawdropping games.... In this case a 2*2 matrix is enough, so in reality it is 2D. The player doesn't jump/move in a z-direction and a vertical angle. It looks more like a direct cartesian product 2D*F (trivial fibre bundle). Let's call it pseudo-3D. Real 3D needs more CPU time, and vector gfx is a nice solution. Also the moving background gfx is not real 3D. Only sometimes full SO(3) effects are used in case of objects, in front of the pseudo-3D background, which do not move in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 But what if the hardware assist was in game's cart, like Nosty's Tomek project - then the acceleration would be available to all users, no special hardware required. Kinda like SFX chips in SNES games, or the DPC chip in 2600 Pitfall 2. That would be the best way to go IMHO if one could not achieve the results alone. sTeVE Yeah, this would be the way to go with hardware enhancement - an external add-on, instead of an internal one requiring delicate soldering/etc knowhow. But it goes outside the avenue of traditional A8 standard hardware - at first it will seem to be an avenue too far for some.... However if it does work extremely well - a killer game will entice them over. That is what is needed to show that an enhancement/etc is worthwhile - the new add-on hardware needs a killer game. Harvey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I have no problem with wireframe games like Elite. There was an excellent 1 on 1 P51 combat simulator on the CoCo that was a lot of fun and it was just wireframe. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) Yeah, this would be the way to go with hardware enhancement - an external add-on, instead of an internal one requiring delicate soldering/etc knowhow. But it goes outside the avenue of traditional A8 standard hardware - at first it will seem to be an avenue too far for some.... However if it does work extremely well - a killer game will entice them over. That is what is needed to show that an enhancement/etc is worthwhile - the new add-on hardware needs a killer game. Harvey Have you ever compared the C64 version of Rescue on Fractalus? Even due it rans never fluently, they claim it playable. You know this one? 40x50 resolution, wobbly sceen... looks like 4-6 fps Project-M runs at 20 fps. And it would even do well with 8-12 fps, and enemies on the screen. Edited April 22, 2015 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Good grief! This thread isn't about any of that. See the PoP one go private? This is why. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Good grief! This thread isn't about any of that. It shows that the A8 is fast enough for doing games in 3d "visually" and anytime even without additional hardware. See the PoP one go private? This is why. PoP went private because it is not doable, as they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) Are there many 3D games like this demo on the A8? Aside from Mercenary and Blaster I really don't recollect any stand out wireframe (or solid poly) games on the little A8 - I think the demo you've put out Dr.Sid is really neat - like a few people have said on this thread, it's an area that seems ill explored on the A8 - yet well represented on other 8bit platforms (ZX spectrum etc).. I for one would love to see more! sTeVE Edited April 22, 2015 by Jetboot Jack 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Good grief! This thread isn't about any of that. See the PoP one go private? This is why. At first 'this' wasn't a reason for coding discussion going private. Now it looks like it's better where it is, specially after reading stuff said in couple of latest topics about new projects. My vote goes to Mr.Sid. Great stuff, hope it will be playable soon! PoP is doable, 3d vector games are doable, 3d wolf-like games are also doable... Don't worry, little elves are busy making all kinds of wonderful stuff in the workshops hidden away from prying eyes of public Yours truly, Elf. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) Another one, how much more times do I have to say that this one is Dr not Mr. There are two Sids like the original 6561 and 8580 . "His name is Sid, Dr Sid!..." P.s.- I hope I didn't made a mistake on the models number. Edited April 22, 2015 by José Pereira 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 6581... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 6581...Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwilove Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) Have you ever compared the C64 version of Rescue on Fractalus? Even due it rans never fluently, they claim it playable. You know this one? 40x50 resolution, wobbly sceen... looks like 4-6 fps C-64 M.O.O.D. Project-M runs at 20 fps. And it would even do well with 8-12 fps, and enemies on the screen. Thanks for pointing this one out. Project-M completed should hopefully outclass MOOD as such - and I would be very surprised if it can maintain a playable frame rate as such. It does remind me of Alien vs Predator on the Jaguar - that it's frame rate looks too slow today. But when it first appeared, and you played it - it was a bearable frame rate then. While MOOD is certainly quite an achievement to accomplish - I don't think the end result is successful as such. I'm looking at it from the player's point of view. While I played Mercenary back in the day - the graphics are simply too simple - 2600 like - that to have detail in them - hardware acceleration is desparately needed. You can't really expect killer games to be developed anymore for the A8 these days - there is simply not the financial reward for all that hard work, and effort required of it. This is a very small community of die-hard enthusiasts of this hardware - which will be considered ancient - by today's generation as such... Harvey Edited April 23, 2015 by kiwilove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 23, 2015 Share Posted April 23, 2015 (edited) While MOOD is certainly quite an achievement to accomplish - I don't think the end result is successful as such. Why? In that game mode, as used on the C64, it costs cpu cycles to create the screen (somehwere 600kHz for calulations left) . The 80x50 screen brings cycles back on the A8 (leaving approx. 1.2MHz for calulations). Using the Gr. 10 Overlay, results in clean 9 colours per scanline, some DLIs could enhance the whole screen to get the double or triple amount of colours.... Edited April 23, 2015 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creature XL Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 (edited) It shows that the A8 is fast enough for doing games in 3d "visually" and anytime even without additional hardware. With the only problem that Raycasting and Wire-Frame-3D are totally different? But you wouldn't know I guess @topic I admire the work put into this. As said in another thread I know a bit of 3d-Coding on the PC in C. Doing it in 6502-asm... Wow But, not sure if I play a game like this. Filled polygons would be awesome. HLine drawing is not THAT expensive CPU wise, but I have no idea how much is needed. And to another point in this thread, adding an additional CPU on the card would be OK with me (buying a speeder for the XL just for a game is a no for me). If such a cart wouldn't be to expensive it would have the benefit, that people cannot pirate it Edited April 24, 2015 by Creature XL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 With the only problem that Raycasting and Wire-Frame-3D are totally different? But you wouldn't know I guess Why does it sometimes hurt to read your posts? Seems, you have a very small point of view, which only allows you to look from above onto other people? It would be the same adressing type to tell you, to learn coding the A8. OFCOURSE I know the difference. But the title of this thread is about "3D Graphics" and how to solve it best on the Atari. The Rescue demo shows a good amount of cpu calculations and presentation through the double scanline mode. Which you still deny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 (edited) Aside from Mercenary and Blaster I really don't recollect any stand out wireframe (or solid poly) games on the little A8 ... Not sure about your 'stand-out' critera, but these other titles came into my mind: Shadow Hawk One (http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-shadow-hawk-one_4610.html) Cube (http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-cube_1445.html) Tetris 3d (http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-tetris-3-d_8.html) Battle Zone (http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-battlezone_13407.html http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-battlezone_560.html) F-15 Strike Eagle (http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-f-15-strike-eagle_1916.html) Flight Simulator II (http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-flight-simulator-ii_6191.html) Tomahawk (http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-tomahawk_5427.html) Plus this 'productivity' application Atari World (http://www.atarimania.com/utility-atari-400-800-xl-xe-atari-world_12890.html) Edited April 24, 2015 by Irgendwer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Ah.,,, superfast flight sim 2.... By hey it's a Chesna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Ah.,,, superfast flight sim 2.... By hey it's a Chesna How about a patch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creature XL Posted April 27, 2015 Share Posted April 27, 2015 How about a patch? No need. We just wait for them CPU-speeeder cards. You know.. PC style Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Sorry I should have been more clear Irgendwer and you;re right to pull me up I was being rather facetious. There are many wireframe A8 games, but most are terrible, very low frame rates or turgid simulations with all the fun sucked out of them - nothing with the pace or innovation of the other 8bit classics like Elite - aside from Blaster and Mercenary IMHO. And seeing something like this, with a more freeform scenario rather than a simulation seems a great direction to go in. sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potatohead Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Yes, agreed. There is something about a little freedom and the hints at an open, big world that wireframe suggests to the user. It really appeals. Saw a video on Elite the other day. One user really got into the game and talked about how it's open nature really impacted him. I need to play that one now. Never have. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tschak909 Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 PoP went private because they wanted to concentrate on getting shit done, rather than listen to the peanut gallery. and you guys sure as hell didn't disappoint. sigh. -Thom 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 So saying you like the work, hope to see more and think it alludes to a type of game sorely missing from the A8 catalogue is somehow bad? sTeVE 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Here are two 1MHz 6502 machines that have recent ports of Elite.Seems a shame there isn't an Atari version. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Saw a video on Elite the other day.... I need to play that one now. Never have. I want to say something but I'm speechless ... You didn't play Elite ? Like - never ? Docking computer ? Narcotics ? Hyperdrive ? Thargoids !?!? ..... I've got to sit down... This is a shock... There exists a respectable nerd who didn't play Elite... You Sir deserve to sit in the corner... For an hour at least... Then you must play Elite and let us know of how awesome it is! On the non-silly side, Elite is a game that influenced more people than any other before it (and many others after it)... Might not look and feel like much in 2015, but back than it was like a game came 'back from the future'... Yeah, it's that good Atari deserves it's 3d-vector-space-adventure. This game that Dr.Sid is making looks to me like pretty good candidate. Wait and see. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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