Colecovision Bagman Review!

[retroillucid]

And with that I will offer my services to test future arcade translations.

You should contact Toby about this

[VectorGamer]

Can you explain where in other games like Jumpman Junior, Miner 2049er or Donkey Kong where you are climbing ladders your character doesn't get stuck but you do in Bagman using the same stock ColecoVision controller?

[retroillucid]

Can you explain where in other games like Jumpman Junior, Miner 2049er or Donkey Kong where you are climbing ladders your character doesn't get stuck but you do in Bagman using the same stock ColecoVision controller?

Simple, level layout

The level layout in Bagman is much more compicated than in those games

Otherwise, we'd have seen the same problem with Pacman Collection

Those mazes are quite simple to handle

Edited June 1, 2015 by retroillucid

[TPR]

Does the game is 100% perfect and close to the original, no ...but we're close enough for a CV port

Besides, we're all happy of the end result with the game

 

This is my thoughts exactly. Yes, I too noted some of the difficulty on the ladders, and not that much different than when I played the original CV Donkey Kong when I was 12 years old how I noticed how slow Mario climbs them, but then I learned a little trick how to climb them faster. Isn't that the "fun of discovery" that Colecovision was all about?

 

I'm sure if I wanted to point out flaws in Bagman, I could. But at the end of the day, I thought it was a FANTASTIC conversion of the game done by people doing this out of passion. It is easily on par with some of the original CV releases by Coleco themselves. I can probably put in just about every single original CV game into the system and find faults with them. But I also know that wouldn't be realistic because the games I would be plugging into the system aren't 1:1 arcade ports. If I wanted the exact arcade-perfect port, I would play Bagman on MAME. But part of me actually likes finding and working around the little nuisances that makes a Colecovision game a Colecovision game.

 

It took me all of about 15 minutes to figure out some of the little quirky things about Bagman (and this is not an insult to Collectorvision or alekmaul) and how to work around them. And I'm playing it on the CV with the original controller, the NES controller, and my GCW Zero with it's 4-way controller. I do not consider myself an "expert gamer" by any means, but I've managed to figure out how to play the game and I think it's GREAT!

 

But this is just one person's opinion who is super-happy that people are still making Colecovision games 30+ years later, and making them of VERY high quality.

[Ransom]

Look at the first post of this thread

 

Make your own opinion

 

I plan to, once my copy arrives. But for now, I'm concerned.

[NIAD]

Herein lies the problem, the CV Hand Controller is an 8-way stick and we have all known about it's inadequacies for over 30 years, especially for games thatvare best served playing with a 4-way controller. The history is there for all to learn from (Venture, Mose Trap, etc.) So extra steps need to be taken to avoid these issues so as not to detract from a game that should be considered great... but now is very good.

 

I still haven't tried Bagman with a 4-way, but I did use a brand new Adam controller and noticed improved movement onto and off of ladders... but still not as good as it should be especially when considering the price of the game. Also, the answer given shouldn't be for the purchaser of the game to use or have to buy a 4-way controller to solve a gameplay issue.

 

As far as the collision detection between Bagman and the Guards/Police, in playing it numerous times now I think that should have been adjusted before the final release candidate rom. I still haven't tried out the arcade version thru Mame though to compare, but will do so later as now I am much more interested.

 

Through it all, I was able to clear all 3 screens without losing a life after a number of games to get the feel for the game down... so it's not an "utter mess". It's a very, very good game that could have been a great game if not for a couple issues that should have and could have been cleaned up before being released.

[+DZ-Jay]

I would just say this

Try the CV version of Mouse Trap using an original 8-way joystick

And Mouse Trap is quite simple game compared to Bagman

 

Anyway, people are free to love or hate the game

I just my personal opinion on the subject

Hmmm... I see that you didn't answer my question, which was more technical in nature.

 

Look, I wasn't disparaging the game. It looks gorgeous. I haven't played it yet but I am very excited. As a fellow home-brewer I was just curious to know why flakey 4-way handling on the stock controller seems to be such a problem in some CV games.

 

The reason I am curious is because I see the same in Intellivision games and it typically is due to lack of experience from the programmer or sloppy implementation.

 

As such, I do everything I can to educate and assist programmers on that platform to ensure games are enjoyable to all. Some problems should not require reinvention, for they have been solved rather spectacularly, and it's a shame when the information is not well propagated.

 

All that said, I'll stop detailing this thread. Good luck!

 

Cheers!

dZ.

[AtariBrian]

I am a beta tester for a programmer for the Atari 2600 , just throwing that out there . And I also do testing for the 7800 . Have found all sorts bugs and such . Anyways , I watched the video of the game being played and the collision detection is way off and I can't see how that got by 5 people at the least . I ordered a copy of this so I assume it will show up soon . The programmer should be able to fix those issues . Maybe people can send cart only back after programmer fixes issues .

[TPR]

I just went back and played again for about 30 minutes just to make sure I wasn't missing anything. Yes, there are issues with the game. It was difficult at first for me to get on and off the ladders, and the collision probably isn't perfect, but it is far, far from a sloppy mess. I played three games, two of which I ended up dying before I could complete all three boards, the third I made it through all the boards, watched the cool little intermission screen, and then went well into the 2nd "level."

Bagman was never an easy game, in fact I'm not sure I ever got past all three levels as a kid playing the original arcade game (which we had at our local Bally's Aladdin's Castle) until I ended up getting the arcade machine at home. This is just my opinion, but I really find this version to be a lot of fun and I've put in quite a few hours now playing it.

[Kiwi]

Can you explain where in other games like Jumpman Junior, Miner 2049er or Donkey Kong where you are climbing ladders your character doesn't get stuck but you do in Bagman using the same stock ColecoVision controller?

From your video, the collusion detection is very picky in Bagman seeing if there's a hole there. If there's a 16 pixel tall hole there, then your character can pass through. Else, you get blocked by a bit of dirt.

[chart45]

i just got my cart today and this game play great it maybe not perfect but you need to practice cause i loop the game 3 time and 1 time with out dying i think more you play the more you will enjoy this game... everybody have his own opignion and its own way to play colecovision

 

life is short play hard.....

[retroillucid]

From your video, the collusion detection is very picky in Bagman seeing if there's a hole there. If there's a 16 pixel tall hole there, then your character can pass through. Else, you get blocked by a bit of dirt.

Yep, you're right

Exactly like the ladders in Montezuma's Revenge

Same feeling too

[NE146]

Bagman was never an easy game, in fact I'm not sure I ever got past all three levels as a kid playing the original arcade game (which we had at our local Bally's Aladdin's Castle) until I ended up getting the arcade machine at home. This is just my opinion, but I really find this version to be a lot of fun and I've put in quite a few hours now playing it.

 

Wow I think you're the first person I've seen who's said they actually finished all 3 levels. It was something that eluded me for YEARS.. until emulation came along and I could cheat, in Mame

 

 

[retroillucid]

Wow I think you're the first person I've seen who's said they actually finished all 3 levels. It was something that eluded me for YEARS.. until emulation came along and I could cheat, in Mame

 

 

Haha, absolutely

Myself pass all 3 screens only like 2 times since I own the Arcade game

[TPR]

After watching VectorGamers video, it almost looks to me like he’s trying very hard to over-exaggerate the issues with the ladders. Are they perfect? No. Did they frustrate me at first? Yes, for about maybe 5 minutes. But it really looks to me with the use of all his effects that he’s trying to make something out to be a bigger deal than it is. On top of that, the video seems to nitpick to death such incredibly minor issues with the game that it feels like there is some sort of grudge against the developer. I’m still new here, so I have no idea of any past history, but that’s how it comes across to me.

Here is a video of me playing Bagman for about three minutes. I’m using a standard ColecoVision controller. You can tell there are times when I have some minor struggles with the ladders, I’m not trying to hide that fact at all, but nothing that made it so I couldn’t play or most importantly, *enjoy* playing the game. I apologize for not having any fancy video capture equipment. I film roller coasters for a living, not video games! =)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVXsR8N8RtU

My biggest struggle was at the end when I was holding the controller up to the camera to show I was using a vanilla CV controller and it really was only because i wasn’t holding it properly at that point.

This is simply me just starting up the game and playing for 3 minutes. Not trying to showcase anything one way or the other, not using any cheesy “effects” to prove a point. I’m just playing.

If I had to point out the biggest issues with the game, it would be connecting with the ladders, as I mentioned in my original review, and the 2nd would be the collision with the enemies. But with those two things in mind, and a little bit of practice, I’m still able to play the game *JUST FINE* and have fun with it. I’m honestly kind of shocked that this is being made into a bigger deal. Any decent gamer should easily be able to figure out and work around those minor issues.

And I’m not one of these “Oh, it’s a home-brew so you have to say nice things” kind of people. I worked on games most of my life and i know a “sloppy mess” when I see one. I produced many myself. (Please see “Mall Tycoon” for the biggest piece of garbage I ever worked on) Bagman is not that at all. That being said I do set different expectations for a game that is a “home-brew” release versus one that is a commercial release. There is a HUGE difference! And if anyone has actually worked on games before, especially a commercial game, I think you’d have better respect and appreciation of what goes into creating a home-brew title.

[+grips03]

I have both 4-way and 8-way controllers, but so far I only tried with 4-way.

 

I notice ladders are sort of hard to get onto or off even with 4-way controller. Can the ladders be made more forgiving, i.e. larger "connect" area?

 

What I played of the game so far I enjoyed, but I know I would have liked it even more if the ladders were easier to use.

 

I really like the French voices, such a cool feature.

 

Overall I'm happy with the purchase and I'm sure others will be too.

[VectorGamer]

After watching VectorGamers video, it almost looks to me like he’s trying very hard to over-exaggerate the issues with the ladders. Are they perfect? No. Did they frustrate me at first? Yes, for about maybe 5 minutes. But it really looks to me with the use of all his effects that he’s trying to make something out to be a bigger deal than it is. On top of that, the video seems to nitpick to death such incredibly minor issues with the game that it feels like there is some sort of grudge against the developer. I’m still new here, so I have no idea of any past history, but that’s how it comes across to me.

 

 

There's no exaggeration in the video. I was emphasizing the flaws in the game via slo-mo replays to make it easier for the viewer to see - it's clearer to see when you slow the game down. And keep in mind the viewer can't see my hands on the controller which is why I repeated saying "I'm stuck again" to let the viewer know "hey I'm trying to get off the ladder by moving left/right and I'm stuck."

 

To say I have a grudge against the developer is ridiculous. I've been a customer for the last several years and I've purchased over a dozen of their games.

 

I'm guilty of being honest. Here's a review I did of Mario Bros. calling it "magnificent" and giving it an A. I was hoping that Bagman would be just as good if not better but it's not because of the flaws. I have enough experience as a gamer to know when a game doesn't play right and Bagman just does not play properly.

 

When I asked why in a similar climbing game like Jumpman Junior your character doesn't get stuck on the ladders JF said that Bagman was more "complex." So, it sounds like that a properly functioning Bagman just isn't doable for the ColecoVision. If that's the case, release the ROM for free and a disclaimer that it's buggy.

 

Another issue of "in the neighborhood" deaths not captured in the video is when Bagman is 1/2 way up a ladder and the enemy is below and next to the ladder you will lose a life.

 

It didn't take me long to find flaws with the game. If 4 people tested this game and didn't see anything wrong with it then they are doing a disservice to CollectorVision. If these 4 people discovered these flaws and made them known then CollectorVision is wasting their time. I have volunteered to test arcade conversions in the future - Toby knows where to find me.

 

If this game can be fixed, then do the right thing by making the fixes and having us send our carts back. And if it can be fixed, what was the rush getting this thing out the door? Or is CollectorVision spreading themselves thin with now producing games for the SNES and Wii U?

[TPR]

^ To me it just sounds like your expectations are way off and you're nitpicking the game to death. Does the game have some minor flaws? Yes. Is it worthy of slow-mo pointing out of every single one of them to the point of being ridiculous? No. But to each his own, and what your video has shown me is that I don't ever need to watch any more of your reviews because they can't be taken seriously.

[coleco_master]

Well, from what I see and hear, some people love the game and some people wish it would been different.

 

On my side, I received many good comments about this game. Especially yesterday.

 

I don't think it’s a question of who likes us and who doesn't. Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion.

 

Personally, I think that what has been called bugs, makes the games a little harder. Therefore it will take more time to finish the game

 

Is that so bad? I don't think so! Our tester has been able to finish the game a few times. Now its your turn.

 

BTW... There was no rush getting this thing out the door. I don't know what makes you think that.

 

We are spreading ourselves to give our customer more games and more variety. Nothing to do with the quality of our games.

 

But when it comes to the quality, I think that we’ve improved a lot in the last few years. And yes, there is always place for improvement!

 

Lets get back to Bagman. We have now less than 10 copies left out of 100.

 

Thank you for taking the time to review our games. Good or bad, its always appreciated!

 

If there is one thing that I’ve learned, is that we can't please everyone... Thank you to all our customers!

[chart45]

I have both 4-way and 8-way controllers, but so far I only tried with 4-way.

 

I notice ladders are sort of hard to get onto or off even with 4-way controller. Can the ladders be made more forgiving, i.e. larger "connect" area?

 

What I played of the game so far I enjoyed, but I know I would have liked it even more if the ladders were easier to use.

 

I really like the French voices, such a cool feature.

 

Overall I'm happy with the purchase and I'm sure others will be too.

 

if you try montezuma's revenge with your 4 way do you feel the same thing with the ladders

[VectorGamer]

^ To me it just sounds like your expectations are way off and you're nitpicking the game to death.

 

What did I pay - $60+ shipping for this game? Yes, my expectations are high.

 

I've bought other CollectorVision games in the past that were IMO average. Did I complain? No because (with the exception of Galaga which other players confirmed as well as CollectorVision that the game DOES crash) they weren't defective.

 

Does the game have some minor flaws? Yes.

 

Minor? Half the game is spent on ladders.

 

Is it worthy of slow-mo pointing out of every single one of them to the point of being ridiculous? No.

 

Just being detailed that's not being ridiculous.

 

In the future I'm going to do a video on Magical Tree that exposes a flaw in how the game can be leeched. Is that ridiculous?

 

But to each his own, and what your video has shown me is that I don't ever need to watch any more of your reviews because they can't be taken seriously.

 

That's a laugh. I documented the flaws in this game the video speaks for itself. You can't take the truth seriously is what you're saying.

[TPR]

^ Look, I get it. You posted a controversial video to boost view counts for a YouTube channel that has zero traffic. Job well done. It's the second most popular video you've had in 4 months. You can't tell me that's not by design. Just being "honest" here, right? That's what you're all about?

[VectorGamer]

^ Look, I get it. You posted a controversial video to boost view counts for a YouTube channel that has zero traffic. Job well done. Just being "honest" here, right? That's what you're all about?

 

I am being honest. And I don't monetize my videos so I'm not doing it for the money. The video was going to be posted whether it was flawed or not. I didn't program the game.

[TPR]

^ Not everyone measures their own personal gain with money. Your video feels very "agenda-driven." Either to boost popularity or to purposely trash a game and/or its company. Every one of your comments in this thread leads me to believe that's 100% the case. Maybe it's either that or perhaps it's possible that you're just not a very good video game reviewer. I don't know, but I certainly won't be watching any of your other videos.

[VectorGamer]

<sarcasm> OK this makes sense: I find a game that has flaws like Bagman so I do a video on the game and edit out all the flaws to make the game look like something it's not. </sarcasm>

 

Here's the agenda for the Bagman video:

- video was going to done whether it was flawed or a masterpiece

- game turns out to have flaws

- highlight flaws to educate viewer

- if you want a copy contact CollectorVision.com

 

That's it.