Boulder Dash ROM will not be released

[Mord]

 

Not taking any sides here, just passing along info from the Facebook post. If I'm understanding correctly there was mention of having to pre-pay FSS for 150 ROMs to be produced.

 

The first idea that popped into my head, if this is the case, then instead of cutting off the ROM sales due to slow CIB sales is to consider this.

 

The CIB crowd overall aren't interested in rom only. Whether a rom is available or not will not change their decision to get it. The asking price can affect the decision, but that's another story entirely.

 

So for the rom only crowd, if you need a minimum number of orders before you can sell them, start a kickstarter project. Set the goal to be at least cover the costs for 150+ rom purchases. Make sure you advertise it well in advance before the kickstarter begins so people know what to expect and so they can save up some money then make sure they know where to find the kickstarter once it begins. There's a lot of things one can do with a properly set up kickstarter.

 

If insufficient interest in roms show up in the kickstarter, then the rom release is just cancelled due to not reaching it's target.

[Mord]

The point being though that an early 8-bit homebrew game is nothing like a modern game in the vast majority of cases

 

Something I'm very thankful for when I think about all the buggy releases, DLC whoring, online connection requirements, and pre-order gutting that goes on with modern games.

[+Tarzilla]

 

Whether you think you are cutting me down a few pegs by calling it 'homebrew' doesn't make it so. It is a commercial product.

 

 

 

This ^

 

It does seem the term "homebrew" has become almost derogatory in some respects, maybe too many simple, throw-something-together releases have wrecked the term across the big three original consoles. I prefer the terms like "After-Crash" or "Modern-Retro" but I do agree that there is no way something like Boulderdash can be considered a "homebrew", even without to co-publishing with First Star. Just because it wasn't written 30 years ago and had mass produced CIB assembly line boxes and carts doesn't mean it should be considered a crappy "homebrew."

 

I guarantee this version has had more design, programming, testing and production love and attention than it would have 30 years ago had it been a normal release.

 

I look forward to the LTO's encrypted ROM-to-the-device, it'll force people that have strong opinions one way or the other to face statistical evidence of actual ROM only sales vs what they theorize...because until LTOs are in the wild and people like me provide ROMs for sale that utilize the optional DRM feature, that's all we have is theories.

[Andromeda Stardust]

DRM should not be placed on a flash cart. 2¢

[Rev]

For me the term homebrew is not derogatory by any means. It is a general term that is used for all game releases on retro systems.

[+DZ-Jay]

 

This ^

 

It does seem the term "homebrew" has become almost derogatory in some respects, maybe too many simple, throw-something-together releases have wrecked the term across the big three original consoles. I prefer the terms like "After-Crash" or "Modern-Retro" but I do agree that there is no way something like Boulderdash can be considered a "homebrew", even without to co-publishing with First Star. Just because it wasn't written 30 years ago and had mass produced CIB assembly line boxes and carts doesn't mean it should be considered a crappy "homebrew."

 

I guarantee this version has had more design, programming, testing and production love and attention than it would have 30 years ago had it been a normal release.

 

I look forward to the LTO's encrypted ROM-to-the-device, it'll force people that have strong opinions one way or the other to face statistical evidence of actual ROM only sales vs what they theorize...because until LTOs are in the wild and people like me provide ROMs for sale that utilize the optional DRM feature, that's all we have is theories.

 

You appear to be one of perhaps the only two people here who think the term "homebrew" is derogatory.

 

-dZ.

[GroovyBee]

Yep! Nothing wrong with being called a homebrewer.

[+Tarzilla]

 

You appear to be one of perhaps the only two people here who think the term "homebrew" is derogatory.

 

-dZ.

I personally don't think it is derogatory myself, I'm just getting the impression that some people are starting to think so and that the term could become bad if we have more games released that don't have the effort put into them, but if it wasn't for Homebrewers, they would have no new games to play, especially some of the new ones that are superior to the original releases in the 80s.

[GroovyBee]

I personally don't think it is derogatory myself, I'm just getting the impression that some people are starting to think so and that the term could become bad if we have more games released that don't have the effort put into them, but if it wasn't for Homebrewers, they would have no new games to play, especially some of the new ones that are superior to the original releases in the 80s.

Good and bad homebrew games have been released for plenty of systems since homebrewing began. The same can be said for BITD releases and modern console releases too.

[+DZ-Jay]

I personally don't think it is derogatory myself, I'm just getting the impression that some people are starting to think so and that the term could become bad if we have more games released that don't have the effort put into them, but if it wasn't for Homebrewers, they would have no new games to play, especially some of the new ones that are superior to the original releases in the 80s.

 

There is no problem with the term "home-brew"; there is only one person in this entire forum who always complains about it.

 

Like GrooveBee said, what you talk about is a separate problem and nothing to do with home-brews. There's always been good games and bad games, even back in the day and modern console games -- the ones that should be "professional."

[+eebuckeye]

It is crazy to me that anyone feels a person creating a new game for any system even if very old should not get a profit! I can only imagine the work involved! When making a 'home brew' when licensing is involved the expense would be much much more. I can only hope more games with licenses occur!

[freewheel]

 

That someone backstabbed the Intellivision community.

 

If our community seriously stops producing product because of a single troll, we are a pretty shitty community to begin with.

 

That might be the single most childish thing I've heard today. "OMG one idiot sent an obvious troll email! Shut down production!". Maybe I just got out on the wrong side of the bed this morning, but if this is how people in this community behave, we all have some growing up to do.

 

[freewheel]

Chalk me up in the "homebrew is not a derogatory term" category. In fact I take more than a little offense to see someone here basically shitting on the vast majority of the Intv development and production community by implying that homebrew could be a derogatory term.

 

Call it what you want, but paying a hobbyist a relative pittance to develop a game in their spare time that sells a relative miniscule number of copies is still homebrew. Until you're paying people full-time wages, and it's their full-time job, they're homebrewers. That's what the word means - people doing this at home. I don't care what kind of production values exist, nor what kind of licensing happens. You don't suddenly become more legitimate because your game is a clone/port and you're paying for antiquated IP. First Star Software did not create the development tools, the emulator, and the hobbyist community that supports all of this in the first place. Their involvement is a footnote at most. A legal checkbox in the production chain.

 

It may be good homebrew, it may be GREAT homebrew. It may be the best game ever released for the system with production values only dreamt of in the 80s. (Boulder Dash is arguably all of the above). But it's still homebrew. And there is absolutely, positively, nothing wrong with that. Implying otherwise is a pretty big insult to those that made all of this possible in the first place.

 

Speaking of which, someone with better writing skills than I needs to update this to include Intellivision development: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebrew_%28video_games%29

[+Lathe26]

 

If our community seriously stops producing product because of a single troll, we are a pretty shitty community to begin with.

 

That might be the single most childish thing I've heard today. "OMG one idiot sent an obvious troll email! Shut down production!". Maybe I just got out on the wrong side of the bed this morning, but if this is how people in this community behave, we all have some growing up to do.

 

 

Whether one email stopped production or not is irrelevant. It's that someone sent a troll message directly to First Star to attempt to ruin things that is the act of backstabbing.

[soporj]

I like homebrew "beer"!!!

 

Also, Stonix and He-Man homebrews!!!

[freewheel]

 

Whether one email stopped production or not is irrelevant. It's that someone sent a troll message directly to First Star to attempt to ruin things that is the act of backstabbing.

 

That's what trolls do. Is there even any evidence that it's someone from here? There are thousands of people who do nothing but read forums specifically to stir up shit like this. My god, if we're this thin-skinned I could horrify y'all with stories from the complaints department at just about any sizable company.

 

Regardless, I don't see why we'd take an obvious troll (see above) and suddenly disparage an entire community as a result. And even if this WAS a long involved discussion 'round these parts, I didn't realize that different opinions are justification to take our ball and go home. Maybe it's better that people do that, if they can't handle even a single dissenting email.

[soporj]

Don't feed the trolls, Freekwheel!!!

[Games For Your Intellivision]

 

That's what trolls do. Is there even any evidence that it's someone from here? There are thousands

of people who do nothing but read forums specifically to stir up shit like this. My god, if we're this thin-skinned I could horrify y'all with stories from the complaints department at just about any sizable company.

 

Regardless, I don't see why we'd take an obvious troll (see above) and suddenly disparage an entire community as a result. And even if this WAS a long involved discussion 'round these parts, I didn't realize that different opinions are justification to take our ball and go home. Maybe it's better that people do that, if they can't handle even a single dissenting email.

 

Was there evidence that it was someone from here? Well, First Star was emailed shortly after I announced (only here) that there would be a protected ROM release of the game.

 

First Star was confused because they said 'this isn;t 'homebrew'. It was also very embarrassing, but in no way affected any decision making. It was mentioned in my post because of the 'idle' threat that there was going to be a boycott of the game. Was there a boycott? I don't know. A lot of people took a pass on the game.

 

Whether I think the term 'homebrew' sounds half assed or not is not relevant. Just because I (and First Star) refuse to identify as 'homebrew' is not a slight.

 

What makes this 'not homebrew'?

 

1. It is ALL new product.

2. There are no limits to the number of copies that may sell. However, since the first run did not sell out, there will probably be no more. The market decides how many copies sell.

3. This game is totally legally legit. Done by two companies, one of which has been in business for over 30 years.

4. It was not done as a hobby

 

Most homebrews do not meet any of the above.

 

First Star did not pull the plug on the rom. I did. Not based on one 'troll' email. It was based on soft support. The 'market' has spoken. End of story. I don't want to risk my money when there are people getting 'offended' because it isn't 'homebrew'.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I don't own an Intellivision or I would have bought one. The way this ended makes me sad though.

[LidLikesIntellivision]

Was there a boycott? I don't know. A lot of people took a pass on the game.

I didn't know about any boycott. I read many posts from Boulder Dash's threads and I don't recall finding any reason to boycott the game. Actually, I own the Atari version and I'm very happy with it.

 

Unfortunately, since last December I'm not buying new games from any producer, with only one exception from Atari land.

I hope I can resume buying more games soon. Hopefully I'll be able to get what I missed since then.

[+Lathe26]

 

That's what trolls do. Is there even any evidence that it's someone from here? There are thousands of people who do nothing but read forums specifically to stir up shit like this. My god, if we're this thin-skinned I could horrify y'all with stories from the complaints department at just about any sizable company.

 

Regardless, I don't see why we'd take an obvious troll (see above) and suddenly disparage an entire community as a result. And even if this WAS a long involved discussion 'round these parts, I didn't realize that different opinions are justification to take our ball and go home. Maybe it's better that people do that, if they can't handle even a single dissenting email.

 

No idea if the email came from someone here or not. Never implied it one way or the other. Not clear what the "suddenly disparage an entire community" is referring to since there are several simultaneous topics on this thread.

[freewheel]

1. It is ALL new product.

2. There are no limits to the number of copies that may sell. However, since the first run did not sell out, there will probably be no more. The market decides how many copies sell.

3. This game is totally legally legit. Done by two companies, one of which has been in business for over 30 years.

4. It was not done as a hobby

 

Most homebrews do not meet any of the above.

 

 

1. BD is not an all new product, it's a port of an existing game. If you mean all new code - then that applies to 80-90% of homebrew. While there are some releases that are hacks, fixed up unreleased games, etc, these are in the minority by and large.

 

2. I'm pretty sure that given demand, people would gladly make and sell more copies of any homebrew game. Not sure why you would think people are stuck on X copies.

 

3. Just like point #1 - most homebrew that I see IS legally legit. Yes, some is based off existing IP, but we have plenty of brand-new original games coming out as homebrew. It's only a small fraction that's not "legit". If your criteria is "done by a company" - anyone can incorporate for a few dollars, but I'm not sure how that act alone somehow makes something "not homebrew". Licensing IP from someone doesn't make a game any more legit, it just makes it more recognizable to the masses (and more expensive). We may have to agree to disagree on this one however.

 

4. I could be wrong, but my suspicion is that BD was not programmed by a contract programmer at today's industry rates. Because that starts in the $100/hr and up range for something like this, and for someone to take on learning an entirely new architecture there would be an additional charge. The cost per copy would be astronomical unless the sales were far higher than most of us have been led to believe. My hunch, and feel free to tell me I'm full of shit, is that the programmer(s) in question learned how to program the Intellivision as a hobby, programmed BD in their spare time, and do(es) not earn their annual wage solely from programming Intellivision games. A truly commercial product (ie: not homebrew) would be developed by people who do this full-time for a living. A guy in his metaphorical basement who figures out how to write games for an obscure and obsolete platform is the very definition of a homebrewer. Paying him for it doesn't change that, unless you're hiring him on as a full-time employee into a company. I've had several people who act as game publishers approach me to write games for them. Paying per game, or per copy, depending on the discussion. And in dollar amounts that work out to an extremely low wage (unless I put out some spectacularly crappy games). I'm still a homebrewer and it'd be silly to call me anything but. No one is earning a 6 figure salary writing Intellivision games. Is our market even worth that much in total?

 

I could be completely wrong on #4. I'm not challenging you to prove anything, I'm just stating the most likely situation.

 

You seem to want to put up a barrier between "Elektronite" and "homebrewers". I'm not entirely sure why, but it's a construct entirely of your own making. "Homebrew" is not just "someone hacked Donkey Kong and changed the Mario graphic". By definition it's very small groups of people writing software for a very small market, for systems that (generally) are not commercially sold anymore.

[freewheel]

 

No idea if the email came from someone here or not. Never implied it one way or the other. Not clear what the "suddenly disparage an entire community" is referring to since there are several simultaneous topics on this thread.

 

Then I ask what relevance it has to the price of tea in China? Why bring it up at all, why mention it in the context of not releasing a ROM, and why talk about "backstabbing the Intellivision community"?

 

One shithead sent one stupid email. And? So? It happens literally millions of times each and every single day. Why are we even talking about this as if it has any meaning whatsoever? Do we seriously make business decisions based on what the trolls say? If that's true, soporj (I love you man, honest) is going to scuttle the entire Intellivison scene. Eric (love you too) is single-handedly going to put Keith Robinson out of business.

 

I mean, if there was some sort of organized AA boycott over Boulder Dash and I didn't get the meeting invite, I apologize. Maybe there's a grand conspiracy to fuck over Elektronite, and the ringleader sent an email to First Star to try to tank the whole project. Maybe everyone's laughing behind my back because I'm so out of the loop here (OK, they're probably laughing anyway, but for somewhat different reasons).

 

There exists at least one douchebag on the planet who a) has Internet access, and b) at one point read the AA forums. And....? Now we're being "backstabbed"? I'm having trouble connecting the dots on this one. If First Star is anything remotely approaching a legitimate company, and I'm led to believe they are, they would have laughed it off. Game companies get letters like this constantly. There are entire websites dedicated to the practice (hell, there's an entire Top Level Domain dedicated to it).

[Games For Your Intellivision]

 

1. BD is not an all new product, it's a port of an existing game. If you mean all new code - then that applies to 80-90% of homebrew. While there are some releases that are hacks, fixed up unreleased games, etc, these are in the minority by and large.

 

2. I'm pretty sure that given demand, people would gladly make and sell more copies of any homebrew game. Not sure why you would think people are stuck on X copies.

 

3. Just like point #1 - most homebrew that I see IS legally legit. Yes, some is based off existing IP, but we have plenty of brand-new original games coming out as homebrew. It's only a small fraction that's not "legit". If your criteria is "done by a company" - anyone can incorporate for a few dollars, but I'm not sure how that act alone somehow makes something "not homebrew". Licensing IP from someone doesn't make a game any more legit, it just makes it more recognizable to the masses (and more expensive). We may have to agree to disagree on this one however.

 

4. I could be wrong, but my suspicion is that BD was not programmed by a contract programmer at today's industry rates. Because that starts in the $100/hr and up range for something like this, and for someone to take on learning an entirely new architecture there would be an additional charge. The cost per copy would be astronomical unless the sales were far higher than most of us have been led to believe. My hunch, and feel free to tell me I'm full of shit, is that the programmer(s) in question learned how to program the Intellivision as a hobby, programmed BD in their spare time, and do(es) not earn their annual wage solely from programming Intellivision games. A truly commercial product (ie: not homebrew) would be developed by people who do this full-time for a living. A guy in his metaphorical basement who figures out how to write games for an obscure and obsolete platform is the very definition of a homebrewer. Paying him for it doesn't change that, unless you're hiring him on as a full-time employee into a company. I've had several people who act as game publishers approach me to write games for them. Paying per game, or per copy, depending on the discussion. And in dollar amounts that work out to an extremely low wage (unless I put out some spectacularly crappy games). I'm still a homebrewer and it'd be silly to call me anything but. No one is earning a 6 figure salary writing Intellivision games. Is our market even worth that much in total?

 

I could be completely wrong on #4. I'm not challenging you to prove anything, I'm just stating the most likely situation.

 

You seem to want to put up a barrier between "Elektronite" and "homebrewers". I'm not entirely sure why, but it's a construct entirely of your own making. "Homebrew" is not just "someone hacked Donkey Kong and changed the Mario graphic". By definition it's very small groups of people writing software for a very small market, for systems that (generally) are not commercially sold anymore.

 

I'll clarify what I mean by those 4 points and leave it at that. If I am 'homebrew' then First Star is 'homebrew'. They don't identify as 'homebrew' nor do I. Take what you will from that.

 

1. ALL new as in new materials. Many homebrews use reclaimed shells. Yes, the code was all new, and besides the point.

2. Many homebrews are limited in numbers. The producer makes x amount and people buy it. When it sells out they don't make more. There is no such limit. If the original run sold out quickly, I would have immediately done another run. Many people make their purchasing decisions based on how many copies have been made. I know, because people ask me 'how many did you make?' all the time and decide to buy it or not based on the answer I give.

3. Most homebrew is legit? You mean like Rev's stolen games? Or his infringing ones using Intellivison and Activision like boxes? He isn't the only one who is repackaging other people's IP. Most of the 'homebrews' in the Intellivision world can be considered illegal IP wise.

4. No, I didn't pay 'contract rates' for my programmer. Obviously, if I sell a boat load of games, I can increase pay. However, it is suffice to say that Scott Nudds, the programmer behind Boulder Dash® for Intellivision is neither an Intellivision hobbyist nor a game player. He is simply a good programmer. What I paid is my business. What I paid First Star is my business. It wasn't a 'hobbyist' cranking out code. But, it has to be copious amounts of money AND full time to be considered 'professional'?

 

And, to your last point.....Intellivision through the flashback IS 'commercially available'.....and if there is a flasback 2, don't be surprised if you see Boulder Dash® on it. And, it won't be my doing. It will be First Star's.

[Games For Your Intellivision]

 

Then I ask what relevance it has to the price of tea in China? Why bring it up at all, why mention it in the context of not releasing a ROM, and why talk about "backstabbing the Intellivision community"?

 

One shithead sent one stupid email. And? So? It happens literally millions of times each and every single day. Why are we even talking about this as if it has any meaning whatsoever? Do we seriously make business decisions based on what the trolls say? If that's true, soporj (I love you man, honest) is going to scuttle the entire Intellivison scene. Eric (love you too) is single-handedly going to put Keith Robinson out of business.

 

I mean, if there was some sort of organized AA boycott over Boulder Dash and I didn't get the meeting invite, I apologize. Maybe there's a grand conspiracy to fuck over Elektronite, and the ringleader sent an email to First Star to try to tank the whole project. Maybe everyone's laughing behind my back because I'm so out of the loop here (OK, they're probably laughing anyway, but for somewhat different reasons).

 

There exists at least one douchebag on the planet who a) has Internet access, and b) at one point read the AA forums. And....? Now we're being "backstabbed"? I'm having trouble connecting the dots on this one. If First Star is anything remotely approaching a legitimate company, and I'm led to believe they are, they would have laughed it off. Game companies get letters like this constantly. There are entire websites dedicated to the practice (hell, there's an entire Top Level Domain dedicated to it).

 

At the risk of being repetitive.

 

The business decision to drop the rom, was nothing more than soft support.

 

It has NOTHING to do with some shit head emailing First Star. It has EVERYTHING to do with poor support.

 

Why was the support soft? No idea. Boulder Dash® is a million selling game with legions of fans. Why would Old School out sell it? I never claimed that there was an organized boycott of the game, so you can stop with the incredulity and sarcasm.

 

It is simply that not enough people bought the game for me to have confidence that I could break even on the venture. Constant harping on 'DRM' abilities in LTO Flash! to a significant (although not only) customer base, as if the sky is going to fall because of it, is one reason I decided to not go through with it. It is total nonsense, but people are really passionate to say the least about it.

 

Why is that? I dunno.

 

People getting their shorts in a knot because I plan to bring out a protected rom. People getting their shorts in a knot because I say it is a commercial product.

 

It is this kind of stuff that makes me question why I even bother. And, as far as a ROM release for Boulder Dash® goes, I won't.

 

Michael Thomasson, a good friend from Good Deal Games was the guy behind Blix. Mind you, he made a couple of mistakes I tried to stop (The sound problem being one) but he wanted to do an Intellivision release. The grief he got over the game has made him decide to NEVER do another Intellivision release.

 

Frankly, I'm not far behind.....and I am finished with this discussion.