FPGA Based Videogame System

[Sbeehive]

Totally fine, everyone has widely differing opinions on what looks good. Although I will say that I would be extremely surprised if the issue with your sprites was related to motion blur and not the way your emulator was running or some strange processing done by the monitor. 60fps is 60fps after all, while crts may be faster if they drew more than 60 frames per second then it wouldn't be 60 frames per second.

 

There is a lot of other stuff that could potentially cause an issue like how some manufacturers assume they are selling displays to the mouth breathing public and leave some video processing on even in game mode to prevent someone from turning it on by mistake and thinking they had a poor quality display, a flaw in the emulation (dosbox has to do a lot of witchcraft to get things running so it is understandable some things might not output perfectly), and issues with things like how the image is upscaled. Is the emulator doing it or the display and how each of those responds and ect.

 

It is a whole big can of worms.

 

I'll be completely honest with you, I don't entirely grasp why certain things look the way they do either in terms of motion blur, and have been trying to sort through it for years.

 

For instance, my RetroUSB AVS running through HDMI on really any TV (I've tried it on an OLED, 4K IPS, and the aforementioned PG279Q) looks great sharpness wise but has a good deal of motion blur. The same can be said really for any gaming console that outputs HDMI.

 

I had an HTC Vive run some retro games through it via Dosbox/Steam (Pac-man on steam) and the colors and motion were fantastic. Blur-busters has an article about it somewhere on there.... It's just a shame that A) I have no idea how you would output any console to the Vive without significant lag and B) The thing is monstrously uncomfortable and a pain to setup.... Which is why for anything on my PC I've resorted to ULMB. I have no idea why certain things look better when in reality I thought that would be tied to frame-rate. Some games cannot tolerate the 120hz the monitor is set at. I know my retro DosBox games aren't running at 120fps and neither would my steam games as a lot of them would natively be locked at 60fps (I think). The only thing I can say is that when Pac-man goes from one side of the screen to the other, without ULMB it is a blurry, disgusting mess. With it turned on it isn't CRT quality but it looks better. Why that is so defies logic considering the constraints of ULMB you brought up.

​You also brought up a good point. I wish someone would just release us a retro-gaming minded monitor.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Sbeehive

[NoKnownOrigin]

So who do we politely yell at to get an analog video version? Analogue support?

 

 

 

I'll be completely honest with you, I don't entirely grasp why certain things look the way they do either in terms of motion blur, and have been trying to sort through it for years.

 

For instance, my RetroUSB AVS running through HDMI on really any TV (I've tried it on an OLED, 4K IPS, and the aforementioned PG279Q) looks great sharpness wise but has a good deal of motion blur. The same can be said really for any gaming console that outputs HDMI.

 

I had an HTC Vive run some retro games through it via Dosbox/Steam (Pac-man on steam) and the colors and motion were fantastic. Blur-busters has an article about it somewhere on there.... It's just a shame that A) I have no idea how you would output any console to the Vive without significant lag and B) The thing is monstrously uncomfortable and a pain to setup.... Which is why for anything on my PC I've resorted to ULMB. I have no idea why certain things look better when in reality I thought that would be tied to frame-rate. Some games cannot tolerate the 120hz the monitor is set at. I know my retro DosBox games aren't running at 120fps and neither would my steam games as a lot of them would natively be locked at 60fps (I think). The only thing I can say is that when Pac-man goes from one side of the screen to the other, without ULMB it is a blurry, disgusting mess. With it turned on it isn't CRT quality but it looks better. Why that is so defies logic considering the constraints of ULMB you brought up.

​You also brought up a good point. I wish someone would just release us a retro-gaming minded monitor.

 

I think in the future we are going to see more and more displays that have dynamic refresh rates, so this may become a moot point.

Edited October 16, 2017 by NoKnownOrigin

[Sbeehive]

So who do we politely yell at to get an analog video version? Analogue support?

 

 

 

I think in the future we a going to see more and more displays that have dynamic refresh rates, so this may become a moot point.

 

 

I was going to order the non-analogue version and cancel if they release another version..... Be advised they don't accept cancellations on pre-orders.... This definitely makes it a harder decision.

 

 

https://www.analogue.co/pages/terms-conditions/

[funkwad]

Can you explain why this is good?

I'm not sure about 5x multiplier - as I don't think it works well if you intend to use scanlines...I think some people suggest it looks better allowing a 1080p upscale.

 

64 Sprite mode, that's should be nice...imagine playing Gradius III and Super R Type sans the god awful slowness

[Toth]

Oh wow. I totally thought you could cancel pre-orders. I think I was thinking of the stone age gamer website and their everdrive pre-orders. I was looking at those at the same time.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Toth

[cacophony]

 

 

I was going to order the non-analogue version and cancel if they release another version..... Be advised they don't accept cancellations on pre-orders.... This definitely makes it a harder decision.

 

 

https://www.analogue.co/pages/terms-conditions/

 

Oh wow. I didn't realize that. I totally thought you could. I just realized I was thinking of the stone age gamer website and their everdrive preorders.

 

Im pretty sure they used to so it must be policy change.

Edited October 16, 2017 by cacophony

[jamon1567]

 

Im pretty sure they used to so it must be policy change.

 

I emailed them about the shipping changing and that I wanted to change the color and they said in order to do so they would have to cancel my initial pre-order. I asked them to and I've not gotten confirmation yet, but if they would allow me to cancel for this, I'd assume you would be able to cancel if they drop an analog version alongside the standard. I would assume, however, that if/when they create an analog version, it would be some time after the initial shipments of the standard version. Prob just have to plan on selling it if they do release an analog version....

[cacophony]

I'm not sure about 5x multiplier - as I don't think it works well if you intend to use scanlines...I think some people suggest it looks better allowing a 1080p upscale.

 

64 Sprite mode, that's should be nice...imagine playing Gradius III and Super R Type sans the god awful slowness

5x height by 6x width was highly desirable on the NT mini because it enabled integer scaling with correct looking pixel aspect ratio. Plus it filled the screen and cut off the areas intended for overscan.

[cacophony]

I emailed them about the shipping changing and that I wanted to change the color and they said in order to do so they would have to cancel my initial pre-order. I asked them to and I've not gotten confirmation yet, but if they would allow me to cancel for this, I'd assume you would be able to cancel if they drop an analog version alongside the standard. I would assume, however, that if/when they create an analog version, it would be some time after the initial shipments of the standard version. Prob just have to plan on selling it if they do release an analog version....

There is a big difference between allowing orders to be canceled now vs after they’ve placed the production order, though.

[jamon1567]

There is a big difference between allowing orders to be canceled now vs after they’ve placed the production order, though.

 

Sure, but I guess it depends on when they do then. I wouldn't expect an analog version before the initial orders ship anyway, so it's probably a moot point.

[Ikrananka]

Wow - shipping to Canada is $49.99. Guess I'll pass unless a more reasonably priced shipping option is offered.

[Guspaz]

Wow - shipping to Canada is $49.99. Guess I'll pass unless a more reasonably priced shipping option is offered.

 

Depends on where in Canada. Shipping to Montreal was $32 USD.

[retro_fan]

Wow - shipping to Canada is $49.99. Guess I'll pass unless a more reasonably priced shipping option is offered.

 

Package forwarding (just choose a good service).

[Tusecsy]

 

 

I was going to order the non-analogue version and cancel if they release another version..... Be advised they don't accept cancellations on pre-orders.... This definitely makes it a harder decision.

 

 

https://www.analogue.co/pages/terms-conditions/

 

you're still covered by your credit card if need be. "i haven't received my item". analogue might blacklist you at that point though lol.

 

the analog output version of this isn't even gonna be mentioned by them until at least february, they're gonna have to produce a shitload of these and won't have time for much else until then.

 

gamma boost turns up the brightness when you turn on scanlines to make up for the darkened lines. a much requested feature.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Tusecsy

[Sbeehive]

 

you're still covered by your credit card if need be. "i haven't received my item". analogue might blacklist you at that point though lol.

 

the analog output version of this isn't even gonna be mentioned by them until at least february, they're gonna have to produce a shitload of these and won't have time for much else until then.

 

Yeah it ain't worth getting blacklisted hahah! Especially considering the sky's the limit in terms of the FPGA's they are going to produce now.

 

I think you are right about the timeframe but I hate to sit here guessing what they are going to do, especially in today's scalper happy market. If it is something that they aren't going to do within the next year I'd just as well get one now.

 

Where's the patron saint of FPGA's when you need him?!

[Tusecsy]

 

Yeah it ain't worth getting blacklisted hahah! Especially considering the sky's the limit in terms of the FPGA's they are going to produce now.

 

I think you are right about the timeframe but I hate to sit here guessing what they are going to do, especially in today's scalper happy market. If it is something that they aren't going to do within the next year I'd just as well get one now.

 

Where's the patron saint of FPGA's when you need him?!

 

Just scalp it yourself when you get it if they announce the other one in the meantime. It's what I'll be doing. I just don't wanna miss this preorder and sit for 4 months kicking myself. If the demand for the snes mini is any indication.

[_omega_]

If I'm not mistaken, preorders are closed already? (no more 'pre-order' buttons present on the Super Nts)

[Wolf_]

 

Just scalp it yourself when you get it if they announce the other one in the meantime. It's what I'll be doing. I just don't wanna miss this preorder and sit for 4 months kicking myself. If the demand for the snes mini is any indication.

I'm not sure how much the nt mini production was bottlenecked by the fricken aluminium cases hand crafted by Zeus and bathed in the tears of Athena but assuming availability of fpgas is also a factor then I would imagine these selling out. Given their pricepoint and added power I imagine a ton of people will be wanting them. Especially as a way to use them on crts gets sorted out. I'm predicting way higher demand for them than the nt mini had. But scalping is the devil's work. Don't keep them out of the hands of people that will enjoy them so you can take advantage of limited production. (Also I could be totally wrong about that and with easily mass produced cases analogue could ship these out by the millions.)

 

If I'm not mistaken, preorders are closed already? (no more 'pre-order' buttons present on the Super Nts)

Just checked, still open.

[_omega_]

Hrm. yea, I refreshed and the pre-order buttons are back. hmm

 

Maybe I shouldn't dilly dally.

[Eatitup86]

For those of you who are questioning the importance of analog output I would like to highlight just how important it is to have the option with a few quick points.

 

1: The NES & SNES both run at 60.0988Hz natively while HDMI forces them to run at 60Hz. This means the HDMI-based consoles cannot be used for Speed Running at all.

2: There are thousands of Twitch streamers who love to speed run and many more who love watching it.

3: Large speed running charity events benefiting excellent organizations are held yearly on Twitch that raise hundreds of thousands of dollars for great causes. (AGDQ, SGDQ, ESA, etc...)

4: Aside from the FPS difference many of the best speed runners still prefer using CRTs.

5: Playing old school games on CRTs just feels right.

[KRiSX]

For those of you who are questioning the importance of analog output I would like to highlight just how important it is to have the option with a few quick points.

 

1: The NES & SNES both run at 60.0988Hz natively while HDMI forces them to run at 60Hz. This means the HDMI-based consoles cannot be used for Speed Running at all.

2: There are thousands of Twitch streamers who love to speed run and many more who love watching it.

3: Large speed running charity events benefiting excellent organizations are held yearly on Twitch that raise hundreds of thousands of dollars for great causes. (AGDQ, SGDQ, ESA, etc...)

4: Aside from the FPS difference many of the best speed runners still prefer using CRTs.

5: Playing old school games on CRTs just feels right.

 

points 1 - 4 could have been combined there I dare say

[Wolf_]

 

points 1 - 4 could have been combined there I dare say

Also it isn't like every game speedrun by charity is on the nes or snes. Furthermore speedrunning is a fairly niche use.

 

I'm totally not saying analogue output shouldn't be an option btw, just that most people won't care about speed running enough for it to be like 3 points. I would say something along the lines of:

1) The gameclock isn't accurate over hdmi.

2) Lightgun games don't work on digital displays.

3) A huge portion of the community love crts. They currently have the fastest response times, natural scanlines, play lightgun games, and satisfy the people looking to own a piece of their past. (people like it is a totally justifiable reason on its own)

4) Converting digital to analogue and finding a converter that doesn't reduce quality or introduce lag is going suck and still won't fix the gameclock.

[Sneakyturtleegg]

This is complete speculation on my part, but here is my 2 cents about jailbreaking and cores. Analogue is a company that is in business to make money. They have a long term business plan, and Kevtris appears to be a part of that now. They have recently released NES clone consoles and are now onto the SNES. So what is next? I would think separate clone systems for the Sega Genesis, TurboGrafx-16, Neo Geo, etc. They just hired Kevtris full time and I don't think they will allow him to release cores for systems that would conflict with future product lines and business plans. As a full time employee, I am sure Kevtris signed a contract containing clauses, and likely a no compete clause if he leaves. If the Super NT is going to get any cores, they will be ones that do not interfere with Analogue's business model (Like the ones released on the NT Mini). I'd even be willing to bet that we don't see a NES core on the Super NT. Analogue is still trying to sell the NT Mini, so there is no reason they would allow or release a NES core. However, that could happen if or when the NT Mini is discontinued.

 

If nothing else, I would be more than happy with Super NT jailbreak firmware that simply allows SNES roms to be played from a SD card. I wouldn't get your hopes up for jailbreak firmware with a bunch of cores that haven't been developed yet and are part of Analogue's future business plans. Especially at the price point for the Super NT.

[Guspaz]

1: The NES & SNES both run at 60.0988Hz natively while HDMI forces them to run at 60Hz. This means the HDMI-based consoles cannot be used for Speed Running at all.

 

It's entirely possible that there will be an option to output the ~60.1Hz over HDMI. Just because it's out of spec doesn't mean it won't work: outputting ~60.1Hz HDMI is exactly what the OSSC does with the SNES, and it works on most (but not all) displays. It would make sense for this to be a checkbox in the settings.

[Wolf_]

This is complete speculation on my part, but here is my 2 cents about jailbreaking and cores. Analogue is a company that is in business to make money. They have a long term business plan, and Kevtris appears to be a part of that now. They have recently released NES clone consoles and are now onto the SNES. So what is next? I would think separate clone systems for the Sega Genesis, TurboGrafx-16, Neo Geo, etc. They just hired Kevtris full time and I don't think they will allow him to release cores for systems that would conflict with future product lines and business plans. As a full time employee, I am sure Kevtris signed a contract containing clauses, and likely a no compete clause if he leaves. If the Super NT is going to get any cores, they will be ones that do not interfere with Analogue's business model (Like the ones released on the NT Mini). I'd even be willing to bet that we don't see a NES core on the Super NT. Analogue is still trying to sell the NT Mini, so there is no reason they would allow or release a NES core. However, that could happen if or when the NT Mini is discontinued.

 

If nothing else, I would be more than happy with Super NT jailbreak firmware that simply allows SNES roms to be played from a SD card. I wouldn't get your hopes up for jailbreak firmware with a bunch of cores that haven't been developed yet and are part of Analogue's future business plans. Especially at the price point for the Super NT.

I seriously doubt that. I would absolutely despise analogue if they tried to release a fpga genesis or something now with exactly the same internals as the super nt and wouldn't allow a jailbreak for it. Everything they have said makes it sound like they are completely in favor of people doing whatever they want with the console. My best guess at their business strategy is that they simply plan to continue using more powerful fpgas in their consoles to cover more generations that the previous one could not so at no point would anything released on the jailbroken firmware cannibalize their own business.

 

Releasing 3 different consoles with switched up cases and identical internals after you buy the soul of the hero of the people is a surefire way to let the butthurt rain down on you like only internet rage can provide.

 

It is interesting to wonder how Kevtris' contract is worded because it should say that they own anything he does which would mean they would have to give him permission to work on the jailbroken firmware for him to release it which means that if anyone came after them for it they could be found responsible. Maybe it says something along the lines of him being allowed to work on anything he wants on his own time as long as he does not sell it?

 

 

It's entirely possible that there will be an option to output the ~60.1Hz over HDMI. Just because it's out of spec doesn't mean it won't work: outputting ~60.1Hz HDMI is exactly what the OSSC does with the SNES, and it works on most (but not all) displays. It would make sense for this to be a checkbox in the settings.

I reallllly hope they have this option.