FPGA Based Videogame System

[Guspaz]

 

Ummmm..but the super nt will support genesis so whats the point of another system that does the same thing? there are these things called roms...and cartridge adapters...

 

You're speculating. There has been zero information about a jailbreak. There is no guarantee it will happen. You don't have any inside knowledge, and it's entirely possible there will be no jailbreak. Their lawyer could decide to prevent a jailbreak from happening for liability reasons, for all we know. Stop saying it's guaranteed just because you THINK it's very likely to happen. Your prediction could be wrong, and wouldn't you feel terrible if you told somebody it was guaranteed, they bought the console on your word, only for you to be wrong? I'm not saying it won't happen, but stop acting like your unsupported guess is fact.

 

 

In terms of the videos that Analogue showed off today: I hate the glitchy boot animation, it's terrible, but the option video showed that you can turn it off ("title -> menu" and "title -> game" options were shown alongside "direct menu" and "direct game" options).

 

The menu layout looks nice, the features look nice, the font is an unreadable nightmare (all the letters look the same). Luckily there was a font menu option, so it may be possible to change it to one that's easier to read, but they skip over it in the video. Fingers crossed they include a more normal font!

Edited December 15, 2017 by Guspaz

[Tusecsy]

The glitchy boot animation is awesome.

 

One only needs to look to the past to predict the future. The cores are coming, whether you wanna acknowledge it or not.

[Kismet]

The glitchy boot animation is awesome.

 

One only needs to look to the past to predict the future. The cores are coming, whether you wanna acknowledge it or not.

 

Knowing how people are impatient I hope kevtris puts a minimal check in the Mini NT and Super NT so that they can't load each others firmwares by accident.

[TheRedEye]

Assuming someone is going to do months of fulltime work for free is an interesting way to think.

[cfillak]

 

It'll have at least the NT Mini cores soon after launch, and pretty much a guaranteed genesis and pc engine/pc engine cd core at some point (first few months, maybe sooner). beyond that is anyones guess. gameboy color is part of the nt mini suite so it'll be in there. gba is too powerful for the fpga (i believe but could be wrong). sega cd not sure of either. there's just a lot of short-sighted pessimists on these boards. it's obvious this will be a repeat of the nt mini. and you will never get a confirmation from analogue or kevtris, they keep this stuff under the radar for a reason. that sd card slot tells you all you need to know...

 

and for those claiming they'll buy another "mega nt" with the same guts for another 200$ just because it has a different controller adapter, you're insane. and "NT" stands for nintendo...

 

i really like the arcade fpga idea that's very cool. the next product from analogue will likely be some kind of portable though. and then in a couple years a next gen all-in-one fpga for the next gen of consoles.

 

You realize the only reason we got so many cores so rapidly after the NT Mini came out was because they were all already written, right? For all we know, Kevtris will still be working on the SNES core up until a few weeks before the Super NT release. Kevtris has said he has been busy with "paid work" since around March. We know now that paid work was the Super NT/SNES core. That's approximately a 10 month dev cycle. What in the world makes you think a Genesis core and a PC-Engine/PC-Engine CD core could be completed in "a few months" or less?

[Guspaz]

He doesn't know, he just becomes so confident in his unfounded assumptions that he presents them as irrefutable fact. It's entirely possible (likely even) that some of his assumptions are correct. That doesn't mean that it's OK to present them as certainties using language that implies there has been some sort of official confirmation.

 

He needs to learn how to use language like "I think it's likely that" instead of "It's guaranteed that", or "I think it will" instead of "It will" when he presents his assumptions.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Guspaz

[cfillak]

Assuming someone is going to do months of fulltime work for free is an interesting way to think.

He doesn't think they're not going to pay Kevtris, I think he's a fulltime employee now. He thinks Analogue will pay Kevtris for months to write a Genesis core, which will probably be completed months after the release of the Super NT and all of the initial excitement about it. After the people most excited about it have already bought it. He thinks that after all these months of work, they will just plop the core out for free, and not create another product tailored for a different market segment, because this will increase sales of the Super NT more than a Mega NT would sell. He thinks a company who has stated that their mission is to preserve video game history and give it the respect it deserves will just handle one of the most successful and popular consoles of all time by just plopping out a core for it on a system designed around its rival platform, which will not work with original controllers or consoles, nor will it work with the 2 add-on consoles, the Sega CD and 32X.

Edited December 15, 2017 by cfillak

[TheRedEye]

He doesn't think they're not going to pay Kevtris, I think he's a fulltime employee now. He thinks Analogue will pay Kevtris for months to write a Genesis core, which will probably be completed months after the release of the Super NT and all of the initial excitement about it. After the people most excited about it have already bought it. He thinks that after all these months of work, they will just plop the core out for free, and not create another product tailored for a different market segment, because this will increase sales of the Super NT more than a Mega NT would sell. He thinks a company who has stated that their mission is to preserve video game history and give it the respect it deserves will just handle one of the most successful and popular consoles of all time by just plopping out a core for it on a system designed around its rival platform, which will not work with original controllers or consoles, nor will it work with the 2 add-on consoles, the Sega CD and 32X.

 

Oh that's an even MORE interesting way to think.

[Guspaz]

But Chris Taber from Analogue has already basically said that they plan to do a Mega Nt, right? He's said that he wants to do systems for all the retro hardware.

I think the contention around this point originally started out by saying that they weren't going to bother designing a new PCB from scratch, that they'd take the Super Nt PCB, change out the cartridge slot and the controller ports, put it in a new Sega-themed chassis, put a Genesis FPGA core on it, and call it the Mega Nt. As opposed to designing a new system completely from scratch.

 

I realize that the "Nt" probably means "Nintendo" so "Mega Nt" doesn't necessarily make sense, but I'd argue at this point that it's basically become the Analogue brand for consoles

Edited December 15, 2017 by Guspaz

[cfillak]

But Chris Taber from Analogue has already basically said that they plan to do a Mega Nt, right? He's said that he wants to do systems for all the retro hardware.

 

I think the contention around this point originally started out by saying that they weren't going to bother designing a new PCB from scratch, that they'd take the Super Nt PCB, change out the cartridge slot and the controller ports, put it in a new Sega-themed chassis, put a Genesis FPGA core on it, and call it the Mega Nt. As opposed to designing a new system completely from scratch.

 

I realize that the "Nt" probably means "Nintendo" so "Mega Nt" doesn't necessarily make sense, but I'd argue at this point that it's basically become the Analogue brand for consoles

I don't think he's outright come out and said that they will make a Genesis console, but every interview with him mentions "Analogue isn't limiting themselves to Nintendo". A good reason for people to want a Genesis console is compatibility with original carts, accessories, and 32X/Sega CD. Let's say that putting the entire Sega CD system (which is basically an additional suped up Genesis) on the FPGA along side the Genesis is out of the question. I'm sure people would appreciate if the Mega NT had the expansion port that could plug into the Sega CD unit, providing an HDMI solution for Sega CD games. Compatibility with the actual 32X unit might be impossible, because you have to pass the analog AV out from the Genesis into the 32X and pass it back out of the 32X. It'd be amazing if they could implement the 32X in the FPGA, and just have Genesis and 32X carts compatible in the slot. It'd be the mythical Sega Neptune back from the dead!

 

https://segaretro.org/Sega_Neptune

 

The 32X might also be a reason to have a console thats not just the "same guts" as the Super NT, because it may need more speed and resources to handle it all.

Edited December 15, 2017 by cfillak

[Guspaz]

IIRC the 32X is basically an underclocked Sega Saturn without most (all?) of the supplemental hardware like the VDPs and way less RAM, so implementing those two 32-bit RISC CPUs on the FPGA might be asking a bit much.

[cfillak]

IIRC the 32X is basically an underclocked Sega Saturn without most (all?) of the supplemental hardware like the VDPs and way less RAM, so implementing those two 32-bit RISC CPUs on the FPGA might be asking a bit much.

The SH-2 CPU patents have expired and there is an open source VHDL implementation of it:

http://j-core.org/

 

I don't know if Kevtris would ever consider using pre-existing open source code. The difficulty would probably be from getting the communication between the 32X and Genesis to work correctly, and the video mixing. Space and speed would be an issue I imagine.

Edited December 15, 2017 by cfillak

[Deltax5]

I kinda want the wii filter in there. Kinda like how games look on the wii makes everything more soft. Or how it looks with the rgb without the chip.

I would consider getting a mega nt if I can slap it in my sega cd and be able to play sega cd in hd also and be able to use all the other preifales like 32x, master system add on, ect otherwise ill stick with my sega genesis I have now it does rgb out of the box anyways.

 

Just noticed the first page he mentioned this Zimba 3000 system that will have most of these retro systems. Making are dream a reality. But still havn't starting making it so it won't be out for awile.

Wonder how much power it would of needed so we can get actual 4k so are tv's don't have to scale it. I know if you have a 4k tv it's best to have it at 720p since it's scales 240p better.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Deltax5

[Guspaz]

Kevtris has said in the past that he doesn't ever use pre-existing code because the fun for him is in the reverse engineering. It also means that he can have complete ownership of the result.

 

Keep in mind that an on-FPGA implementation that supported the 32X would not only need to include all the Genesis harwdare, but also all the 32X hardware at the same time, and it didn't just have one SH-2, it had two of them. I'm not sure why communication or video would be a problem, that's just a virtual bus and some digital video muxing.

 

I think supporting a real 32X via the cartridge slot would be relatively easy, as the only requirement seems to be analog video output close enough to a real Genesis to work.

[cfillak]

Kevtris has said in the past that he doesn't ever use pre-existing code because the fun for him is in the reverse engineering. It also means that he can have complete ownership of the result.

 

Keep in mind that an on-FPGA implementation that supported the 32X would not only need to include all the Genesis harwdare, but also all the 32X hardware at the same time, and it didn't just have one SH-2, it had two of them. I'm not sure why communication or video would be a problem, that's just a virtual bus and some digital video muxing.

 

I think supporting a real 32X via the cartridge slot would be relatively easy, as the only requirement seems to be analog video output close enough to a real Genesis to work.

So then no HDMI out for 32X? Or I guess the Mega NT could have an AV out and and AV In port so: Mega NT AV OUT -> patch cable -> 32X AV IN -> 32X AV OUT -> patch cable -> Mega NT AV IN -> HDMI out ? This would kind of be a step back from how they ditched the analog out on the Super NT, and the ports would also have to be the custom Genesis/32X pin out format, so no re-using my generic VGA style cables for the NT Mini . Any way they do it, its kind of a hard problem to crack. Both the NT Mini and Super NT have been advertised as having 100% compatibility. I don't know if they would want to just throw their hands up and say it's 100% compatible except for 32X. If a Mega NT had a Sega CD port, I wouldn't mind getting an actual Sega CD unit, but I'm holding out hope for an ODE for that system so I don't have to burn discs and worry about the laser.

 

Edit: I guess I didn't mean the communication so much as getting the timings correct with so many different chips communicating.

Edited December 15, 2017 by cfillak

[cfillak]

I learned from the great DF Retro 32X series on youtube that 32X games use the 32X hardware for some functions and the Genesis hardware for the others. How do Sega CD games work? Do any of them use the Sega CD's 68K CPU and hardware AND the Genesis hardware, or do they just use the Sega CD hardware and just pass the AV out through the Genesis? I know there are a few Sega CD 32X games that use both the SCD and 32X hardware, but are there any that use all 3 systems' hardware?

[Guspaz]

I was thinking more along the lines of, if they can't fit a 32X on the FPGA for some reason, or they don't want to invest the time in implementing it (very small library with very few good games), they can still let people use a real 32X with 240p analog video output without any extra effort.

 

If they do have the time and room for a 32X, my understanding is that the 32X doesn't manipulate the video signal in any way beyond a simple overlay with three possible conditions:

if (32x front pixel is non-transparent)
output 32x front pixel

else if (genesis pixel is non-transparent)

output genesis pixel

else

output 32x back pixel

 

I think they do that in the analog domain on the 32X, but doing it digitally would be even easier, no?

 

EDIT: of course, you could also implement those above three conditions without any logic by simply drawing the 32X background layer, putting the Genesis layer on top of that with transparencies, and then adding the 32x top layer on top of that with transparencies.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Guspaz

[cfillak]

One thing that would be kind of cool about a Mega NT has to do with how similar alot of Sega hardware is. The Genesis basically contained an SMS, the Game Gear was basically an SMS, the SMS could play SG-1000 games, etc. I know the Genesis and can't natively play SG-1000 or Game Gear games, but isn't that only because of the lack of a specific VDP mode or something? What I'm getting at is shouldn't it be possible to play Genesis, SMS, SG-1000, and Game Gear games all on the same core?

[retro_fan]

Whoa, this menu and the boot screen look (and sound) awesome!

 

Kevtris, consider adding some simple sounds when navigating the menus (accepting, canceling, moving up/down), please, this could give some nice aural feedback... You might want to work on this together with Squarepusher.

 

The buffer mode settings look really interesting, but I think we are still missing one setting, i.e. "zero delay/original speed (not compatible with some displays)". Maybe add it to the jailbroken firmware, if you think that it should be for "advanced users only".

 

Also, I'm waiting for the "skull & crossbones" menu skin.

Edited December 15, 2017 by retro_fan

[wingzrow]

I have a troubleshooting question about the analogue nt mini. Does it sound like my ports are broken? The system only accept the left most port as an input, Is that normal? I ran the port test cartridge rom & get an "INPUT PORT ERROR" message reading 00 00 00 00 when running it.

[cacophony]

I know if you have a 4k tv it's best to have it at 720p since it's scales 240p better.

I dont follow that logic. 1080p scales up to 4k just as cleanly as 720p. For those of us that like 5x height by 6x width mode (or really any other 1080p integer scale), the 1080p output scales up to 4k as an integer multiple and may introduce less lag too.

 

(a bit off topic but 720p output with integer scale forces a 1.33 pixel aspect which looks way too wide IMO)

Edited December 15, 2017 by cacophony

[cfillak]

I dont follow that logic. 1080p scales up to 4k just as cleanly as 720p. For those of us that like 5x height by 6x width mode (or really any other 1080p integer scale), the 1080p output scales up to 4k as an integer multiple and may introduce less lag too.

I think they mean that 240p->720p->2160p fills up the whole screen with no cropping. You can do 240p->960p (4x mode) inside of a 1080p frame with no cropping, which would be somewhat letterboxed, and still would be letterboxed on the upscale to 2160p. Or you could do 240p->1200p (5x mode) which would involve some cropping, but would fill up the vertical resolution of a 1080p frame, then be upscaled to to 2160p.

 

Edit:

It'll be great when FPGAs are powerful and affordable enough to handle line9x (240p->2160p) mode to be able to avoid the TV's scaler entirely and not worry about the fact that 1080p is not an integer multiple of 240p.

Edited December 15, 2017 by cfillak

[Tusecsy]

Whoa, this menu and the boot screen look (and sound) awesome!

 

Kevtris, consider adding some simple sounds when navigating the menus (accepting, canceling, moving up/down), please, this could give some nice aural feedback... You might want to work on this together with Squarepusher.

 

The buffer mode settings look really interesting, but I think we are still missing one setting, i.e. "zero delay/original speed (not compatible with some displays)". Maybe add it to the jailbroken firmware, if you think that it should be for "advanced users only".

 

Also, I'm waiting for the "skull & crossbones" menu skin.

 

Kevtris has nothing to do with the Super NT menu. And I agree with a previous poster that the font is terrible, luckily they have that alternate font option. What don't these guys think of?

 

Oh...and Mega NT = Mega Nintendo folks. That makes about as much sense as them releasing a reskined super nt, or Analogue MD, in the first place.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Tusecsy

[Tusecsy]

Assuming someone is going to do months of fulltime work for free is an interesting way to think.

 

Ya cuz Kevtris has never done this before. He probably has the Genesis/PCE cores ready to go already seeing as they're light-years simpler than the SNES. The Neo Geo core is up in the air I will admit. And if it needs a stronger FPGA I'd say this would be a likely target for an Analogue product in the near future.

 

Any potential Genesis reskin A) doesn't require a better FPGA B) would be cannibalized by the people who already bought the Super NT C) could be recreated with a simple cartridge/controller adapter, much like their upcoming DAC. D) has about 20% of the potential market of the SNES to begin with. It's just a bad business decision all around, from a company that has always made the right one.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Tusecsy

[retro_fan]

 

Kevtris has nothing to do with the Super NT menu.

 

Kevtris + Phil Fish + Squarepusher = the Super Nt menu + the boot screen