FPGA Based Videogame System

[phoenixdownita]

I did it! I pre-ordered a Mega Sg and feel damn happy about it.

 

THANK YOU KEVTRIS YOU ROCK DUDE!

Yayyy, Isn't it strange?

I felt the same way with the SuperNt (did not buy the Nt Mini, too expensive for my taste).

I am waiting for this thing to come out to see how it is (and give myself time to collect 200US$) but I can definitely see myself buying it.

 

I swear to god, I bicker and swear at spending maybe 20US$ for an AtGames Blast as I know it may still disappoint, but 200US$ for kevtris feels bliss as I know, it will work, well and he thought of a lot of things (blending, hi quality audio, 1080p [nobody still offers that] with all the variable scaling).

 

I hope this time around it allows 1080p50 and 720p50 even if it doesn't detect it, my TV support 1080p50 (via Framemeister) and I think it would be better for all the PAL releases but the SuperNt wouldn't let me ... hopefully the Mega Sg has an override checkbox somewhere to let me do it anyway.

 

I am so happy that kevtris idea of cart adapters is a reality with MegaSg and I can see the list of adapters growing (CV, IntV, 2600, 7800 should be piece of cake for him assuming Anlogue allows him, he already designed most of them).

[Pixelboy]

And yeah, throw in a Game Boy core too. Selecting game type is a bit tricky however as Game Boy is 5v bus and GBA is 3.3v bus.

I have to wonder how the original GBA did it.

[Great Hierophant]

GBA bios is really only useful for download play without a cart. Otherwise it just passes control directly to the cartridge. This is why gba clones are available without violating copyright. And yeah, throw in a Game Boy core too. Selecting game type is a bit tricky however as Game Boy is 5v bus and GBA is 3.3v bus.

 

Actually the GBA BIOS does contain routines for programmers to use in their game titles, https://www.coranac.com/tonc/text/swi.htmso how the clones get away with it is a very interesting question.

 

I have to wonder how the original GBA did it.

 

The shape of the GBA cartridge is different from a GB/GBC cartridge. There is a switch on the side of the cartridge connector in the GBA. The older GB and GBC cartridges physically touch this switch, which tells the console to go into GBC/5v mode. GBA cartridges are shaped differently and don't make contact with the switch, so the console stays in native GBA/3.3v mode.

[Pixelboy]

The shape of the GBA cartridge is different from a GB/GBC cartridge. There is a switch on the side of the cartridge connector in the GBA. The older GB and GBC cartridges physically touch this switch, which tells the console to go into GBC/5v mode. GBA cartridges are shaped differently and don't make contact with the switch, so the console stays in native GBA/3.3v mode.

I was aware of the physical switch thing, but I thought it was an older mechanism used to distinguish GB from GBC carts.

 

So the GBA has a BIOS with some useful routines... Did the Super-NES also have a BIOS with similar useful routines?

[Tanooki]

The GBA had that BIOS definitely, but the SNES just direct loaded the games off the cart, much like how wires can complete a circuit. The most old stuff did back then was some kind of plastic or basic chip based (ie: 10NES) lockout chip to try and kickout unlicensed goodies. The GBA had a little BIOS so it would know what to boot, and also it had instructions for some games to get some auto-color schemes for those first party licensed(and made) GB games on GBC.

[Pixelboy]

Alright, so the logical conclusion would be that Analogue will pass on an FPGA GBA, as they will want to avoid legal problems with Nintendo over the GBA BIOS. Unless I'm missing something?

[Tanooki]

I think they could do it. There are plenty of emulators out there now that run just fine without using their BIOS. Those that do at this point do it as a choice like NO$GBA as a clickable option to enable if you have the file. It's really not necessary.

[Slipard]

IMHO, a PC Engine core is the next one, because:

1. The core must be something like 99% already done (console is well emulated since years and hasn't problematic components inside);

2. It can connect to CD-ROM systems, just like Mega Sg, so experience with that kind of extension is already mostly there;

3. The PC Engine was really the third player of the Nintendo/Sega era and with all the hype between the Super Nt and the Mega Sg, it would be perfect timing to unveil a Giga Nc to have the three Musketeers available as a marketing gimmick, ensuring as much as possible sales;

4. Some models of PC Engine hardware ages quite bad and many other models are horribly butchered up by so-called "modders", while the hardware is still quite expensive to get;

5. While they make and sell the Giga Nc, it allows for better FPGAs to be released with reduced price and as such, to produce either an Ultra Nt (do I need to explain what system it would be?) or a Dual Nt, ie. an handled GBA with both GB[C] compatibility and a HDMI port to connect to a TV, just like the Switch, but into one module.

 

Basically, I very well see a scheme which would be to release one or two successful systems (Super Nt, Mega Sg), then a nicher one (Giga Nc) while having the previous two still made and sold, then roll the dices again with a successful one (N64), then make a nicher one (Intellivision, Coleco, Atari 8bit; no offense to Atari, but while the fanbase is quite alive, the numbers of potential sales are still niche, I believe), then a Dual Nt one, etc.

 

Then there would be computers where, really, in order to compete with the MiSTer, you would have to make a keyboard case containing the FPGA and e-Ink adaptative buttons (showing special symbols buttons for the loaded core). That way, you could have an all-in-one solution that would allow to cumulate all niches into one big market. Also, due to their different nature and licensing of computers, the use of an SD card wouldn't legally be a liability (although I am not an US lawyer, so if you are one, correct me with as much technical details you want, I always love these).

 

Then, of course, making the Nt Mini available again with a plastic case and two editions (US-EU and JP) would be a nice play. Many people, me included, trust Kevtris better than the other solution available and I would even go as far as selling my Analogue NT Gold in order to buy a Nt Mini.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Slipard

[NE146]

Honestly I've never felt that GB/GBC/GBA games really looked all that great even on a CRT. I can only imagine them in hidef on a 80" TV Also actually playing small form-factor games enlarged while sitting on a couch never felt right either.. maybe it's just me but those games to me are best enjoyed on a handheld screen (e.g. while sitting on the crapper), and in that case a regular old GBA + Flashcart is the standard, and of course that method is 100% available now. So that realm is satisfied as far as I'm concerned. 'Course I reserve the right to change my mind on a dime if they do release something with a bunch of cool features.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

Actually the GBA BIOS does contain routines for programmers to use in their game titles, https://www.coranac.com/tonc/text/swi.htmso how the clones get away with it is a very interesting question.

 

 

The shape of the GBA cartridge is different from a GB/GBC cartridge. There is a switch on the side of the cartridge connector in the GBA. The older GB and GBC cartridges physically touch this switch, which tells the console to go into GBC/5v mode. GBA cartridges are shaped differently and don't make contact with the switch, so the console stays in native GBA/3.3v mode.

Interesting. My Retrobit GBA clone plugs into an SNES slot, bypasses the SNES CPU, and uses the controller ports for input. On Retrobit SNES on a chip clones, it passes composite video directly to the console output. For other consoles (including Super NT) use a TRRS AV cable. I posted a teaser video a while back of the Retrobit Advance Game Port running on the Super NT while simultaneously hooked up to a CRT and a 1080p monitor. Yes, you can play GBA games on the Super NT... Sort of.

 

I often wondered how they got past the bios issue. Ironically, the GBA adapter got discontinued a couple months after launch and I haven't seen any other companies releasing GBA hardware clones which plug into TV. Zero secondhand units available on eBay or Amazon last I checked, which I find unusual for even the most obscure video game accessories.

[Jurai]

For me the ideal GBA is that backlight gba-sp screen into a first gen gba mod (still haven't done it ), need to get around to pulling that thing off

 

unrelated, but have you guys seen how bad Paprium looks still? I'm asking Watermelon for a refund

Edited November 2, 2018 by Jurai

[Great Hierophant]

GBA clones that include built-in games aren't likely to be too concerned about copying Nintendo's BIOS wholesale

 

I'm not sure how more-or-less respectable clones like the Revo K101 Plus manage it.

[LewisD]

I think we will see Nintendo make a Gameboy Classic handheld with GB/GBC/GBA with built in games before we will see Analogue do it.

Edited November 2, 2018 by LewisD

[jonesaaronj]

I'm not sure it's worth the effort to work on an fpga gba when the woozle gba consolizer is very close to being released and used gba's are cheep and plentiful.

PS-One seems unnecessary because they are cheep and plentiful, we already have the PSIO and great rgb, plus an hdmi upgrade might be coming from chriz2600 and citrus3000psi. Not to mention PS2/PS3 options.

N64s are still affordable, have the everdrive and ultrahdmi

Dreamcast has USB-GDROM and good rgb/hdmi options.

Sega Saturn has the Satiator coming soon, good rgb, and could also be ripe for an hdmi mod like the dreamcast.

 

So that leaves only a few options...

 

I'd rather they spend the next year figuring out a full fpga 32x or SegaCD solution to go along with the mega-sg because all the current solutions suck.

Otherwise, I think either the neo-geo or pc-engine would be great. Both are kind of hard to come by and so an affordable way to enter that world would be great. A lot of people would end up buying one because they have all the other consoles and so why not pick one up. I know I would.

Atari Jaguar Maybe???

 

Here's a more exciting option. Release a handheld supernt, megasg, or ntmini. I thought about buying an extra supernt or megasg just to do a handheld mod. The motherboards are relatively small, power efficiency is decent, and finding a screen would be very easy. If only I had time to work on something like this I would, but Analogue could just save me the trouble and take my money.

[Pixelboy]

I think we will see Nintendo make a Gameboy Classic handheld with GB/GBC/GBA with built in games before we will see Analogue do it.

That is a distinct possibility, but Nintendo's Super-NES Classic Mini didn't stop Analogue from marketing the Super NT, so I'd say it's a moot point. The idea here is for a system that plays real GB/GBC/GBA carts.

[LewisD]

That is a distinct possibility, but Nintendo's Super-NES Classic Mini didn't stop Analogue from marketing the Super NT, so I'd say it's a moot point. The idea here is for a system that plays real GB/GBC/GBA carts.

I never suggested that Nintendos release of the classic consoles had any influence on Analogue. Developing an FPGA handheld console is a lot more involved and costly than just making a traditional console. Analogue will no doubt make one, but it wont be as soon as everyone thinks.

[Atariboy]

The appeal of these FPGA clone systems isn't because of the cost of the original systems, jonesaaronj. You could probably buy a half dozen perfectly good Sega Genesis systems with zero effort for just what one Mega SG cost, and quite a few more than that with the right deals and luck. The cost and availability of systems like the GBA and N64 is irrelevant.

 

And PS1 could still hold a ton of appeal if HD rendering was implemented and it ended up jailbroken to support iso's, not to mention the lifting of region locking annoyances and NTSC/PAL issues for import gamers.

[Pixelboy]

I never suggested that Nintendos release of the classic consoles had any influence on Analogue. Developing an FPGA handheld console is a lot more involved and costly than just making a traditional console. Analogue will no doubt make one, but it wont be as soon as everyone thinks.

I sure hope not! What I want is a mini-console that lets me play GB/GBC/GBA games on a TV through HDMI! Screw portability, I already have a GBA!

[Jurai]

PS1 gaming has an HDMI actual games solution if you buy a PS3, I'm not sure it'd be worth the R&D

[Andromeda Stardust]

PS1 gaming has an HDMI actual games solution if you buy a PS3, I'm not sure it'd be worth the R&D

That, and Sony owns the BIOS. Of course that didn't stop some intrepid programmers from releasing a PC emulator in the 90s that accepted actual game discs (who subsequently got sued by Sony, won, but then still went bankrupt over court costs).

[Kismet]

I'm also curious to see what their next fgpa system will be. I'd love to see gba as the next system; I'd buy that instantly.

 

I don't think there is enough appeal to make anything else to be honest. For all intents the NT Mini, Super NT and Mega SG are "high end" FPGA hardware devices which is why they required pricey FPGA's.

 

What is most likely to happen now is to wait for the price to go down on the next die shrink. Current models are 28nm Cyclone V's on TSMC's process. Everything out presently is 14nm, and TSMC has a 7nm process (iPhone CPU's are built on them) , so in theory 30% and 60% more logic units can be fit into the same chip area, not like the chip's physical size mattered, you're still limited by how many virtual wires can exist between logic. It may make more sense to have two cheaper FPGA's than one more expensive FPGA if all the logic needed for the scaler can fit in the same FPGA chip and be used on multiple devices, and reduce the "boot" time of the entire FPGA if it has multiple cores by not having to re-program the chips.

 

Like imagine for a second if a super-FPGA console/computer had three FPGA's in it, one that acts as the video processor and it's RAM, one that acts as the CPU and system ram, and one FPGA that acts as the various sound chips (of which there are many.) There could be some practical applications of this if the system could switch between various 6502 (Apple II, NES, C64, PCE), 68K (Amiga, Sega Genesis, Atari ST, Original 68K Mac), Z80 (Sega Master System, Gameboy, Gamegear, MSX) CPU cores, and sound chips, because then even emulating an arcade game of this vintage this way becomes possible.

 

Just getting a legal way to play arcade games on a FPGA is zero though. I wish someone like Capcom or Namco would just go "hey Analogue, love what you're doing, can you include our game library?" just to get the ball rolling. The Mega SG hopefully convinces someone at SEGA to make the "classics" collection on their own SD card (maybe even with new controllers) so people can have a legal clean version of the games.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Kismet

[DragonGrafx-16]

 

I don't think there is enough appeal to make anything else to be honest. For all intents the NT Mini, Super NT and Mega SG are "high end" FPGA hardware devices which is why they required pricey FPGA's.

 

What is most likely to happen now is to wait for the price to go down on the next die shrink. Current models are 28nm Cyclone V's on TSMC's process. Everything out presently is 14nm, and TSMC has a 7nm process (iPhone CPU's are built on them) , so in theory 30% and 60% more logic units can be fit into the same chip area, not like the chip's physical size mattered, you're still limited by how many virtual wires can exist between logic. It may make more sense to have two cheaper FPGA's than one more expensive FPGA if all the logic needed for the scaler can fit in the same FPGA chip and be used on multiple devices, and reduce the "boot" time of the entire FPGA if it has multiple cores by not having to re-program the chips.

 

Like imagine for a second if a super-FPGA console/computer had three FPGA's in it, one that acts as the video processor and it's RAM, one that acts as the CPU and system ram, and one FPGA that acts as the various sound chips (of which there are many.) There could be some practical applications of this if the system could switch between various 6502 (Apple II, NES, C64, PCE), 68K (Amiga, Sega Genesis, Atari ST, Original 68K Mac), Z80 (Sega Master System, Gameboy, Gamegear, MSX) CPU cores, and sound chips, because then even emulating an arcade game of this vintage this way becomes possible.

 

Just getting a legal way to play arcade games on a FPGA is zero though. I wish someone like Capcom or Namco would just go "hey Analogue, love what you're doing, can you include our game library?" just to get the ball rolling. The Mega SG hopefully convinces someone at SEGA to make the "classics" collection on their own SD card (maybe even with new controllers) so people can have a legal clean version of the games.

There are many of the Sega first party Genesis releases on Steam and from what I have heard they contain actual roms in the game files. If you are concerned about being legal just buy those and then put them on a SD card.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Arcade emulation by FPGA is doable. The issue is you need to build a separate core for each arcade machine. And it's still doable. FPGAs need building blocks for each chip, then connect the dots. MAME even works like this.

 

A jailbreak FPGA could easily run MAME ROMs off an SD card, but you need a core for each game. Fortunately writing cores from complete scratch per game isn't necessary once all pertinent logic is present for each chip it's just a wiring diagram.

 

And I dn't b3lieve multiple FPGAs is efficient use of resources or pcb space. Except for top-of-the-line FPGA hardware, it is cheaper two use a single large FPGA than tw mecium.

[spoonman]

For me the ideal GBA is that backlight gba-sp screen into a first gen gba mod (still haven't done it ), need to get around to pulling that thing off

 

unrelated, but have you guys seen how bad Paprium looks still? I'm asking Watermelon for a refund

I was going to buy another GBA, AGS-101, glass lens, dimmer switch and mod it myself, but then saw a premodded one for sale on eBay for $78 and just bought that instead. I'm very happy with it. No dead pixels, or dust under the lens, which in was afraid of. It looks and plays great.

 

 

To be fair, that Paprium video posted as a "long play" is simply a background layer and FX demo. Co-developer, and UbiSoft dev Luis, said this, and has seen a more complete build being played. I do think some of these background graphics as well as the main character sprites look nice..

 

What I believe happened here is that the issue with the DATENMEISTER co-processer was real. I think it wasn't present on this demo, and it's needed to allow for that many large on-screen sprites. The demo footage shown in the original Paprium "leak" from Fonzie was clearly from a Genesis emulator. Which probably had unlimited sprites turned on. Perhaps this will be the perfect game for the Mega Sg if they have that option.

 

As far as getting a refund from WM, I wouldn't count on it. I personally don't know anyone who has successfully received a refund. Most don't even get a reply. I'm hoping it eventually gets released, like Pier Solar did (2+ years late).

[Bar81]

I got a full refund from WM last year relatively quickly.