The Video Game Homebrew Crash of 2016

[Omegamatrix]

I might be bad, but the crap I release is worse.

[SIO2]

So, is that Simple Quest going to come in a gold cart like Zelda?

 

I am getting such ideas from this thread. 2016 could be a crap storm.

Edited November 15, 2015 by SIO2

[+thegoldenband]

They were also directed at people who were bashing bB.

I've reread the entire thread, and literally don't see anyone in this thread "bashing" bB. If anything, most posters have taken pains to say bB isn't the problem. I've been quite clear that if it weren't for bB, I'd probably never have started writing tunes for Atari games.

 

Talking about the problematic aspects of a tool isn't the same as "bashing" it. Everything in life is double-edged, and every tool encourages certain patterns of thought and behavior while subtly discouraging others. GarageBand (the example I used earlier) is a great entry-level program for getting people to realize they can write their own music; it also tends to encourage a kind of unthoughtful, repetitive pattern-based musicmaking that we've got quite a lot of already.

 

Both of those things are true, and don't contradict one another. (The above isn't really a flaw in GarageBand, nor are my comments a criticism per se -- it's simply a consequence of the kind of tool it is.)

 

A lot of this is partly about community, which for some reason has become a dirty word these days. What kind of community do we want AtariAge to be, and how do our actions affect that community? Every community has an implicit value system, and there's no such thing as a neutral stance on that.

 

If you're in favor of robust criticism of homebrews, and advocate for ostracism of people who put out limited editions using other people's IP, it'll tend to build one kind of community. If you're in favor of an unfailingly supportive environment, and think everyone should be allowed to sell whatever they want here, it'll tend to build a different kind of community. They're both perfectly legitimate stances, and it's also legitimate to disagree with either of them, because we all advocate for the kind of community we want.

[Omegamatrix]

So, is that Simple Quest going to come in a gold cart like Zelda?

 

I am getting such ideas from this thread. 2016 could be a crap storm.

Originally the plan was a brown color cart, but gold is nice too. Maybe I could have a contest for worse features to add with the winner getting a one off cart.

[SIO2]

Well I vote for liberty and a free market and no shunning. I like both classical and modern art. There are plenty of old Atari consoles to go around.

 

As for the worst of contest, something like that would be fun. I recently watched a Metal Jesus video where he and some friends went out searching for worst games to gift to each other. So, there might be a legitimate market for some really bad games.

 

I think I really will make Square Just Sits There.

Edited November 15, 2015 by SIO2

[+KaeruYojimbo]

I know I'm guilty of the the following, and I imagine many of the rest of you are as well. If I try an WIP and am really impressed with it, I will try to post something positive on the thread. If I don't like it, I just delete the ROM from my hard drive and move on. Thus you end up with development threads with only positive comments, and not many that say "This game isn't very good and here's why. And for Pete's sake, do us all a favor and don't releases it on a cart." There's definitely room for more constructive criticism on the development threads.

Edited November 15, 2015 by KaeruYojimbo

[Omegamatrix]

There's definitely room for more constructive criticism on the development threads.

Developers love this. Nothing is more agonizing then posting something and getting little to no feedback. I would much rather have someone tell me why they didn't find the game fun instead of choosing to ignore it.

 

 

It is hard sometimes to sort feedback. I would tend to listen more to people who play the game for more than 1 minute for things like controls, ramping of difficulty, re-playability, overall fun factor. The people that play it for only 1 minute give you the critical feedback on first impressions, nothing more.

[+thegoldenband]

There's definitely room for more constructive criticism on the development threads.

 

Developers love this.

 

Some do, maybe most. But -- unfortunately -- we've also had a few freakouts over relatively innocuous criticisms too, which tends to poison the well. A couple developers have made it clear that they don't welcome any criticism of any kind, because they write games only for themselves, and hearing negative comments makes them threaten to take their ball and go home.

 

It's a personality type that's present in almost every "scene", and unfortunately it sometimes includes some very talented people.

[GroovyBee]

Developers love this.

Some develoopers don't like feedback, which is a bit odd in my opinion. Sometimes if you make a comment about a developer's game you get dogpiled because you spoke out.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

Yes, Scramble gets a lot of positive feedback, people like it and they will play it. But how many will buy it, compared to the other type of game we are talking about? How much money will be spend to into Scramble? Compare the sales and money raised with a limited edition, bad game. Based on the work and talent invested, Scramble should sell 10 times better (at least!). But this will not happen.

 

Maybe the flash carts are part of the problem. Before people interested into the game would buy a loose cart. Great! Now many of them have stopped doing so, and so the collectors have taken control of the remaining sales. They have different requirements, the packaging and how rare something is, seems more important to them. But that's a different discussion...

 

 

I don't own a Harmony Cart, so I can't say how much owning one would change my buying habits, but I try pretty much any game I can find in Stella and if I like it, I will eventually buy the cart. I say "eventually" because I don't have the budget to buy all the homebrews I like and do other things I want to do, so I pick up a few here and there, knowing that games in the AtariAge store typically remain available. Good games made available over the long term will continue to sell as more discover them or find the extra money to buy them. Limited editions sell out in a day because people are buying the hype or the rarity or are just feeling the pressure of "well, I do kind of like this game and I don't want to regret not buying when I had the chance."

 

Scramble and Star Castle are both amazing, but they're games I don't honestly see myself buying for a couple of reasons. First, while I like both games, they aren't favorites. Second, as great as both ports are, they are ports. I can't justify spending 50 dollars or more on these games when I can play the original arcade game for free in MAME, or go to the barcade two miles from my house to play them on the original machines. I'm not saying I would never buy a new arcade port (I own Ladybug and Juno First, both awesome ports of games I love), but generally speaking, I prefer to buy games I can't play anywhere else.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Developers love this. Nothing is more agonizing then posting something and getting little to no feedback. I would much rather have someone tell me why they didn't find the game fun instead of choosing to ignore it.

This!

 

And if anyone feels bad about constructive feedback, he probably will never improve.

[Omegamatrix]

 

 

Some do, maybe most. But -- unfortunately -- we've also had a few freakouts over relatively innocuous criticisms too, which tends to poison the well. A couple developers have made it clear that they don't welcome any criticism of any kind, because they write games only for themselves, and hearing negative comments makes them threaten to take their ball and go home.

 

It's a personality type that's present in almost every "scene", and unfortunately it sometimes includes some very talented people.

 

 

Some develoopers don't like feedback, which is a bit odd in my opinion. Sometimes if you make a comment about a developer's game you get dogpiled because you spoke out.

Everyone is different. I guess you guys know who to avoid then. There is not much to say other than their choice really.

 

 

Just never be afraid to tell it like it is, please. You can tell me my games suck, but I will only take offence if you don't tell me why my games suck. Ultimately a game won't have every feature every person wants, but sometimes the best features come from feedback that causes a 90 degree turn in development.

[SIO2]

Well there is the PM option if you don't like something about a game. Maybe the developer will tell you go jump in a lake or maybe they will work on it behind the scenes or ask publicly if others feel the same. Not everything has to be a public free for all.

[+KaeruYojimbo]

Some develoopers don't like feedback, which is a bit odd in my opinion. Sometimes if you make a comment about a developer's game you get dogpiled because you spoke out.

 

I'm just a bB programmer, and I've only finished one game, but feedback from others helped that game become what it is. I think as a developer, often you're too close to the game to see the flaws. Maybe the control scheme you think is intuitive is only intuitive to you because you invented it. I know there are some comments that I didn't follow exactly, but they led me to think a different way, which led me to new ideas. And as a novice programmer, it's definitely nice to get technical tips from more experienced programmers.

 

But I have definitely encountered programmers with the "I'm awesome and therefore my game is awesome and you're wrong and stupid and mean to say it isn't" stance. There's a fine line between standing up for your ideas in the face of criticism and being an obstinate jerk.

Edited November 15, 2015 by KaeruYojimbo

[+KaeruYojimbo]

Not everything has to be a public free for all.

 

This, sir, is the internet. Everything must always be a public free for all. Otherwise it doesn't count.

[Mr SQL]

 

That's a great reply. There's a third option - find something else to love, and pour your heart into that.

Cheers

A

Andrew,

A fun next project for you and Tom might be building an Assembly Framework or a programming language implementation based on your awesome BoulderDash, a game construction kit.

 

Doesn't have to be BASIC, perhaps Forth if you prefer but I think BASIC is a lot of fun and has great density of code compared to other languages.

 

I wrote Atari Virtual World BASIC inspired by bB and BoulderDash with it's CAM and tile mapped characters:

 

A couple of programmers have Framework initiatives to harness the ARM processor for more power like Space Rocks which is also cool, but I'm of the same mindset to push retro technology using enhancements limited to the 80's for maximum retrotivity so that we can bring the games back in the DeLorean

[Thomas Jentzsch]

A fun next project for you and Tom might be building an Assembly Framework or a programming language implementation based on your awesome Boulder Dash, a game construction kit.

Actually we had that idea. But based on a better bank switching schema (the one we used in BD is very ineffective), which we first have to try out in practice.

[Philflound]

 

 

 

You know, it is attitude like yours that discourage game creation and participation. There are many things wrong with our respective communities, and most have to do with the way some people behave. However, the tools have nothing to do with it.

 

I've seen crap games in Assembly Language, just as I've seen brilliant ones in BASIC. It is a poor warrior who blames his weapons for missing his mark -- and a poorer one who blames his situation on others.

 

If there's a glut of crap games, there's one simple solution: help and encourage programmers to make better ones, and shame and ostracize those who promote or encourage bad behaviour.

 

 

I'm replying prior to reading all the posts after seeing DZ's reply. I haven't written a program in over 20 years in any language. I don't really have the time anymore, just like I don't write songs anymore. Ever since being with my wife back in 2001, my "alone" time for creation isn't there for much of anything short of my website, which keeps getting put on hold for one thing or another.

 

Anyway, my point is that it's tough to encourage programmers because any criticism given is taken negatively to the point where you become a bully. This day and age of political correctness has ruined criticism. In the old days, a critic of movies, restaurants, books, etc would rip into bad quality and it was usually accepted because the "critic" was a professional at what they did.

 

There are many people on here that I would qualify as "professional" game makers that have put out quality products and have the right to critique homebrews coming out. In fact, it would probably be a good idea to have a "panel" of these experts do critiques and give letter grades to new games that come out. Maybe have a vote of 5-8 users like an election to be on the panel, so anyone can't just say they are the expert, but is chosen by the community. Then when giving honest opinions, and even suggestions to the homebrew creator, there won't be a huff saying, "they're picking on me" and some serious quality games could be released and higher prices justified.

 

I can't say how many people have critiqued my songs over the years. When I was 10, my friends made fun of me because I played church songs. At 18, I was getting paid $15 for one mass while minimum wage was $3.35/hour. I spent maybe 5 hours earning $45 and enjoying what I was doing because of my love for music while my friends were flipping burgers or working in retail clothing stores.

 

I personally don't buy many homebrews anymore. In the very beginning I remember purchasing Edtris and Sound X. Over the years I purchased others that I thought were cool, related to movies that were in the proto stage, or other Atari games that AA released with limited boxed editions while they were still allowed to. I don't have the money to shell out so it has to be something I really want. I don't even test new demos. I'd rather work towards acquiring games I'm still missing from my collection than buy something new.

 

When reading all the posts prior to DZ, the thought crossed my mind about Ebay sellers. How everyone who sells on Ebay thinks they have the ability to do so. Ebay guides you through a listing now because they want money from many people. But I see people sell many items, not just video games, and act like they know what they are doing. Selling used to be an art. Quality photos, good descriptions, correct spelling even. But now you see a fuzzy picture with no description or a one liner that doesn't give much of anything. Someone gets some things from an aunt who passes away, or buys a house with junk in the basement or garage and *BOOM* they're now an Ebay seller.

 

So if you don't like a homebrew game, I still say give your opinion. Tell the creator you wouldn't buy it, but don't just say it's shit. Give good, definitive reasons why the game is not up to your liking. Or, if everyone likes my idea, create the panel.

 

Phil

Edited November 15, 2015 by Philflound

[+Nathan Strum]

Second, as great as both ports are, they are ports. I can't justify spending 50 dollars or more on these games when I can play the original arcade game for free in MAME, or go to the barcade two miles from my house to play them on the original machines.

 

A partial solution - don't buy a boxed copy and save $20-$25. I don't think people should have to buy a box to get a game. It should be optional.

 

But then, I'm not looking for shelf-candy either.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

As much as I like boxed releases, I agree here. The problem is, that boxes have to be produced and financed upfront in some quantity. With the lower sales of today, there is a risk to offer both versions in parallel.

[Rick Weis]

so much HATE! I wish we can ALL just get along and not worry about what others are doing! but to answer the question about a "crash" IF there is a crash, it will happen when all the collectors stop buying any home brew games! (I will say over the years it has crossed my mind a few times!) players will always buy games if there are games they like/love but IMO many players don't buy many games because of a limited budget. and with the price of games these days, it's not that cheap of a hobby anymore.

 

for me this hobby has ALWAYS been about the fun of it and the thrill of the hunt.

 

Rick

[+KaeruYojimbo]

 

A partial solution - don't buy a boxed copy and save $20-$25. I don't think people should have to buy a box to get a game. It should be optional.

 

But then, I'm not looking for shelf-candy either.

 

A lot of the new games are only sold boxed though. Whenever the option to buy cart and manual only exists, that's what I choose. In fact, none of the CIB games I own, homebrew or otherwise, are kept in the boxes. The boxes are all in a tub and the carts are in drawers, easy to access. Apart from the gatefold Ataris, most of those old boxes don't make good shelf candy anyway. And while a lot of the new boxes are nice, I have no interest in paying 25 dollars for them if I can avoid it.

 

Does anyone know if Albert plans to sell the new games loose, or will they be boxed only?

[Mr SQL]

Actually we had that idea. But based on a better bank switching schema (the one we used in BD is very ineffective), which we first have to try out in practice.

Awesome! Looking forward to seeing this - sounds like will you will be making the Framework fit a smaller memory footprint with Harmony compatibility.

[atari181]

Does anyone know if Albert plans to sell the new games loose, or will they be boxed only?

I believe now that the games that come with a box it is available as an upgrade option.

[Emehr]

Rather than having a box, I think a better alternative would be to have some nice glossy card-stock about the same dimensions as the manual that has a picture of the game's artwork. Why use up shelf space for the artwork when you can hang it?