Lost potential of Jaguar/Jaguar II

[+rdemming]

Agreed, I'm happy we got the Falcon and Jaguar at all.

 

The Jaguar had the bad luck that it was in-between two "game type" generations. The Jaguar was the ultimate 2D sprite machine easily beating the SNES/Sega MegaDrive but it came a year or so too late because the game market was already moving to 3D. The Jaguar was just too weak in 3D. It could handle flat/shaded polygon type of games pretty well (easily handling ST/Amiga/StarFox type of polygon games but faster/more complex) but texture mapping is just too taxing for the Jaguar. With the introduction of the PlayStation, the transition to 3D texture mapped gaming was complete and game over for the Jaguar.

 

Atari had after 1993 not the resources to come up with a proper SDK for 3D gaming thus even if the Jaguar II chipset had been finished, the software developers would have found programming the chips directly too complex in comparison to the PlayStation that had a proper SDK.

 

Robert

[Guitari]

 

 

 

Jaguar is what it is.

 

Inhale...

 

Exhale...

 

Inhale...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfdCJ50dqW4

[sh3-rg]

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfdCJ50dqW4

 

we're all the victim.

[sd32]

Atari had after 1993 not the resources to come up with a proper SDK for 3D gaming thus even if the Jaguar II chipset had been finished, the software developers would have found programming the chips directly too complex in comparison to the PlayStation that had a proper SDK.

 

Robert

 

Yeah, if Atari somehow had gotten the Jaguar 2 finished and released, i think it would have done even worse than the original Jaguar on the market. But still, it would have been cool to see the hardware finished and some games running on it.

[+save2600]

 

Yeah, if Atari somehow had gotten the Jaguar 2 finished and released, i think it would have done even worse than the original Jaguar on the market. But still, it would have been cool to see the hardware finished and some games running on it.

 

Yeah, just imagine games like:

 

Highlander 2 - The VR Helmut Kohl Game (mammary truck required)

Checkered Frame Per Second - Bowling Ball Speed Simulator

Flip In!

Club Drive - The Golf Kart Simulator

Air Cards Solitaire

Green Lightning - The Catatonic Flight Non-Stimulator

Cybermorse Code

Ziggy Fartdust: The David Bowie Story feat. Minor Tom Thumb

Flash For Beads - Fight For Fat Tuesday

Hover Bovver Strike

SoSueMe Ninja: Kosher Club Night

Powerdrive Sally: The Dating Sim

Sucker Kid 2: Futball Spud Premier

Trevor McFur in the Croissant Gallery

Val 'erieBertinelli's Fasting & Feeding

Black Men Can't Bowl

World Tour Chinese Buffet

Total Blockage aka Microsurgeon II in Europe

Skywrench: Glitches In Me Britches Needs Fix'ins!

Ocean Dunce: Pulpito's Choice

Braindead Damon: The Boring Trilogy

Foster Cannon: Lager's Never Been So Much Fun!

Devolution: Barring Roseanne

Boobsy: Pardon Me Dolly!

Rogaines - Cousin 'It' Out Of Control

Hyper Farce: Super Large Sprite Edition (limited to 100 carts just because)

Jenny's Mother's Boyfriend's Cousin's Rescue On Fractalus

Battlespear - The Hunt For Seaman (made possible thanks to the awesome Sega/Atari deal made)

Sinhypocrite - Disorganized Crime Sim

Double Dutch VI - This Date Blows!

Happy Bodies: Hunting Skipping Clay T-Birds (Atari dark phasor req.)

Jagoff: Bum Squad

Pitfail: The Stained Adventure

Skycrapper: Wally World Carousel Of Crap

Protractor: Speculum Edition

Ruined It 2 - Pinball Nightmares

Super Burnout: 4:20

Flowers II: Flight Of The Daisy Pushing Old Geezer

Vid Grad: GED Simulator (VR Helmut req.)

Dime: The Penny Pinching Game feat. JagStink linkup

AvPvMe and Everything Else (another VR Helmut game)

MiST Demo: The Premiere AtariST Game Emulator (req. your ext. ST disk drive and quick before it breaks!)

Domestic Nonsensical Sucka: Brutal Troy Antman

 

...and be sure to look out for these long awaited 7800 crossovary sequels:

 

Homoxenophobe - feat. 3-player split scream action, oh boy AND how! (VR Helmut req.) aka Pole Position III in Europe

Basketcase Brawl: 20-30 Something's In Mom's Basement Still

Super Huey Lewis And The News - Uh Oh

Marry 'Yo Bro's: Baby Momma's Challenge

Scrapheap Doug

Barnyard Blaster: Splatter Outhouse Cleanup Ed.

Ninja Badmitten

Ballbreaker: AC/DC Diode Rectification vs. Tube Bottle

[Lynxpro]

Seriously, Super Huey and the News has to be made for the 7800 and stat!

 

Ninja Golf 64 would've been pimp.

 

Let us remember that had Atari Corp survived and brought the actual Jaguar 2 [Midsummer] to market, they would've had the licensing agreement in place with Atari Games again so a title like Primal Rage - or Area 51 - could've been the pack-in. Atari Corp and Atari Games were bickering over royalties during the development and initial release of the Jaguar to market which is why us Jaguar owners didn't get any Atari Games goodness unlike those of us who had the Lynx previously. It took Time Warner to get involved to settle the differences between the two parties which was amusing because Time Warner owned 22% to 25%+ of Atari Corp stock while wholly owning Atari Games at that point. [and as EGM pointed out then, Time Warner was distributing their magazine. EGM went sour on Atari Corp after the Tramiels allegedly rejected a buyout offer from Time Warner circa 1992].

 

The Jaguar 2 still would've needed Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter II - Your Mom Edition to be successful but it definitely would've helped matters if the Atari Games back catalog would've been available for it. Hell, the Jaguar itself would've done better had it had Atari Games titles - via Atari Games' Tengen sub brand - like the Sega Genesis [Mega Drive] enjoyed.

 

I suspect the Jaguar could've performed better had Atari Corp gone with a 68010 instead of a 68000. Sure, the 2MB RAM would've still been an issue but performance from games relying heavily upon the 68000 would've done better as witnessed from modded Sega Genesis consoles with a 68010 upgrade. Here's Atari Games/Tengen's own Hard Drivin' on a Genesis with a 68010 installed:

 

[sh3-rg]

 

Battlespear - The Hunt For Seaman (made possible thanks to the awesome Sega/Atari deal made)

Jagoff: Bum Squad

Super Huey Lewis And The News - Uh Oh

Scrapheap Doug

 

Add me to the pre-order list for these, 4 copies of each.

[+CyranoJ]

I would also love Super Huey and the News.

 

That sounds great!

[+madman]

I blame Edge Magazine for the Jag II not being released.

[phoenixdownita]

....

 

I suspect the Jaguar could've performed better had Atari Corp gone with a 68010 instead of a 68000. Sure, the 2MB RAM would've still been an issue but performance from games relying heavily upon the 68000 would've done better as witnessed from modded Sega Genesis consoles with a 68010 upgrade. Here's Atari Games/Tengen's own Hard Drivin' on a Genesis with a 68010 installed:

 

Nahhh, that speed up is mostly because of the 30% overclock (from 7.6Mhz to 10Mhz).

There's videos with overclock at 12+ Mhz as well to show even more improvement.

 

Yes the 68010 was tiny little more efficient (< 10%) and everything helps but that 30% clock boost accounts for the lion share:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_68010

 

The Jag needed a '020 at 25+MHz to make some difference, a '040 even better but the cost would have been prohibitive.

Also in the Jag design the 68K "should have been used only" as a generic controller and not to do the heavy lifting, that was left to Tom and Jerry, well that didn't quite turned out that way.

Edited February 10, 2016 by phoenixdownita

[+rdemming]

 

Yeah, just imagine games like:

 

... Long list of exciting titles.

 

 

You forgot "Rainman II: Atari Special Edition - This time not only limbs are missing".

[Atlantis]

I'm personally of the opinion that Atari should have waited, developed the Jaguar II as the Jaguar, then made the release. 750k polys and CD ROM support would surely have stolen any Thunder the PSX had

If it was stronger it would have been possible to do more 'impressive' stuff, that is logic nad we all understand that.

 

Compare the Hoverstrike cart edition with the Hoverstrike CD edition - its a remake - you see the 'lost potential' shown with a game improved; compare one rushed cart edition (or the limitations of cartridges if you like), and then one non-rushed CD edition: there you have it. The CD add-on gave more improvements to the game graphics, faster game play and more sounds/music and demo videos. If Jaguar 1 had any lost potential it was shown here with Hoverstrike end of story, without Hovestrike we would more be lost in the speculations, but since we have it it answers all "what if":s.

 

The only lost potential of Jaguar 1 is the VR helmet, as there was a prototype and all. Next to that the add-on gave the little extra in storage, graphics and so. Case is closed.

 

(I grew up on tons and tons of bad Amiga 500, so I have no trouble seeing some quality in old games. Next to the VR helmet Jaguar 1 could have gotten more and also better games, not necessary better garphics and so just better games game-wise as Mortal Kombat and more. To me I have all the good games on the system, give or take 2-3 games. The rest of the games are plain crap!)

 

Lost potential of Jaguar 2? The same with Jaguar 3, Jaguar 4 and Jaguar 5. Case is closed.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Atlantis

[Lynxpro]

 

This.

 

And given the specs of the hardware, it was already late by its 1993 soft-release - it was more geared up to be a SNES rival than something like the 3do that was aiming to be something of a generational leap than more of the same but a bit better.

 

But then you look at 1992 and there you have the release of the Falcon. Should they have scrapped that and gone all-in on Jaguar? Then how far back do you have to go to be in a possible Panther release window?

 

And where is the software going to come from? They struggled to release *anything at all* with the half-arsed tools, buggy hardware that comprised Jaguar. Add yet more complexity to that and you think that's going to make things easier? lolol.

 

I'm glad things played out as they did. We got the Falcon, an amazing machine that's gimped in a few areas (surprise!) then we got the Jaguar. That both actually happened is amazing in itself.

 

If they had sat back and waited for better and better versions of Jaguar until they finally had something truly amazing they'd have gone bump long before they actually did.

 

 

Sitting at the keyboard stating Atari Shudda Duns is the easiest thing in the world. Probably one of the most pointless and self-defeating.

 

Jaguar is what it is.

 

Inhale...

 

Exhale...

 

Inhale...

 

Well, Atari Corp blew it on several fronts over several years. Losing the North American rights to the Sega Genesis was major, followed by Michael Katz retiring then going to work for Sega. Then you have how long it took the STE to be released. Had the STE come out a few months after the Amiga 500 like it was supposed to have, Atari Corp wouldn't have been in dire straights with the ST platform. Releasing almost 2 years later lost them the lead in Europe. That's a lot of profit they ceded unnecessarily to Commodore. And the fact that the STE didn't multitask - even if that was basically a gimmick on systems lacking memory protection, didn't do VGA graphics, and didn't have a better CPU also contributed to a major loss of faith in Atari. Had that been shorn up, they would've been in a better financial situation even with the Federated debacle.

 

Combine that with not releasing the Panther led them to the Hail Mary pass that was the Jaguar. Had they released the Panther, that would've/could've bought them time to "perfect" the Jaguar. Would the Jag have been CD-based from the start? Who knows.

[Lynxpro]

Nahhh, that speed up is mostly because of the 30% overclock (from 7.6Mhz to 10Mhz).

There's videos with overclock at 12+ Mhz as well to show even more improvement.

 

Yes the 68010 was tiny little more efficient (< 10%) and everything helps but that 30% clock boost accounts for the lion share:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_68010

 

The Jag needed a '020 at 25+MHz to make some difference, a '040 even better but the cost would have been prohibitive.

Also in the Jag design the 68K "should have been used only" as a generic controller and not to do the heavy lifting, that was left to Tom and Jerry, well that didn't quite turned out that way.

 

I wonder how much a 68020 would've cost then. After all, a 68000 in 1985 was about $8 to manufacturers.

 

That's another thing. Atari Corp trash talked the 68020 once Amiga brought out a system with one. Atari Corp staff started telling people to wait for the TT with the 68030 instead which caused delay after delay in releasing it as well. Right before the STE was released, a lot of the ST community was still hoping it would come with a 68020 standard but nope, yet another 8Mhz 68000 instead. No soup for you!

 

A Jag with a 68020 would've at least been decent for the coders to fall back upon who didn't want to deal with the other complexities of the system.