Why is the ST never mentioned in documentaries?

[atarian63]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have game sales numbers/figures for the years 1985 through, say 1987/88?

 

I'd be curious to see what platforms sold the best during those years.

St was dominant 85 to 88

[Foebane]

 

It probably was. For the most part, Amiga was dominant in the US, even in the major retail chains like Electronics Boutique.

 

Really?

 

All I see in the gaming press about retro gaming in the 1980s and 1990s is Nintendo THIS and Sega THAT and other Japanese crap.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

Really?

 

All I see in the gaming press about retro gaming in the 1980s and 1990s is Nintendo THIS and Sega THAT and other Japanese crap.

 

Don't take my comment out of context. That statement was in comparison to the ST. Obviously computer sales were in no way equivalent to console sales. The Sega Genesis/Mega Drive sold close to 35 million units when all was said and done, and the Super NES/Famicom even more.

[Keatah]

Sure, could be that I was unaware of them - but thought I had a good general awareness of these things, which is why I find it fascinating that living where I did, all these ST shops were elusive to me. So, what were the shop names and in what cities?

 

One of them was a mom'n'pop shop - Software Etc. In Streamwood or Hangover Park. They had a huge space shuttle mural on the wall. Another was a more pro-level place in a town that started with a V or G. Glenview maybe? There was also Aurora Computers in Aurora.

[Keatah]

St was dominant 85 to 88

 

I don't think the ST was ever dominant at any time.

[+save2600]

 

I don't think the ST was ever dominant at any time.

 

Oh boy, now you've done it. Prepare to feel the Atarian wrath... and this time, he's got a buddy to help pounce!

[+save2600]

One of them was a mom'n'pop shop - Software Etc. In Streamwood or Hangover Park. They had a huge space shuttle mural on the wall. Another was a more pro-level place in a town that started with a V or G. Glenview maybe? There was also Aurora Computers in Aurora.

That's cool... besides the occasional trip down to Chicago, never really had a reason to venture that far southwest (Streamwood or Hanover Park) for computer stuff. Don't remember an ST shop in Glenview, but could have missed it obviously. Did most all of my living a bit farther north, even though I covered quite a bit of territory thanks to my other hobbies.

 

Heh, I did run across a vintage business card today ...although I do not remember them selling ST or C64 stuff by the time I discovered them (late 80's/early 90's) but still... pretty cool! I frequented their Wheeling location much more and that's the place where they used an ST as their cash register. No other software in this particular store than Amiga and PC, but only later by the mid 90's.

 

[Keatah]

Ha ha! As much as I wanted to get one I couldn't afford it. Was working part time pumping gas and painting railings at the oil change shop. And the MAC was completely out of the question. All I remember of the ST and MAC were good times of seeing the future 10 years ahead of time.

 

In fact, all my comrades were still entrenched in the 8-bit environment. And we felt comfortable there - for better or worse.

 

My second bout would have been with the Amiga 500. At first I owned a 1000, but had the typical disappointment issues I've previously complained about. A few years (1987-91) later the 500 was somewhat better in that some software was available. I did learn a lot about GUI and paint programs via PhotonPaint and DigiView and Deluxe Paint.

 

But it still pissed me off because of limited storage space lack of speed and constant swapping the floppies. By the time I thought of accelerator upgrades and a hard disk I got whiff of the Xenix and the PC.

 

They had this one SAM's - Costco like warehouse, but it was all for computers. After working at the assembly line factory I would drive past the store, get out of the car, go in, and just stare in awe at the stack of 286 computers. Must have been a mile high! Being a pothead and everything I knew I'd never be able to afford that. So I stuck it out with my Amiga 500 till 1992, then life got good and I got a 486DX2-50. It was THE PERFECT gaming machine and yet I could conduct my electronic simulations for work-at-home. Far cry from pumping gas.

[Keatah]

..Farnsworth Computers (near oakbrook terrace) was where I got my Amiga 1000.

 

I got my 500 from some shitbox shop in Barrington. Somehow related to Protecto Enterprises? CDW maybe? I was even scared because I spent like $500 on it all and didn't know what to do with it. I just had to have it and that was that. Pffftthhhhtt! It's all so vague now and I'd have to revisit my TEXT FILE journals I so lovingly scribed on the Apple II. I do have the flyers and ads, but that's packed away in my long-term storage area and I don't feel like climbing over everything. Maybe this summer when we finish cleaning out the 3rd garage.

 

Prior to all that my favorite shops were Compu-Shop and Data-Domain. Data-Domain was cool because it was next door to PinPan Alley. Both were on the second story of the then-popular split-level strip malls. Those stores were coming of age just right after the single-board micro reached its maximum popularity. None of them lasted long enough to pick up the ST. Computerland did try a stint with the Amiga, but they sucked at it. They even threw me out for copying warez on the premises. Compu-Shop never did that!!

 

The 2nd best time I had in a computer store was indeed the Compu-Shop near those three white buildings on 72 just a few miles east of Woodfield. The guy with the 'fro taught me a lot about Flight Simulator and the Apple II. That was sometime back in 1979-1980. My deadbeat parents would drop me off there while they hung out at the unemployment office on Arlington Heights road not too far from there.

[mehguy]

I see this all the time. A lot of documentaries on computers focus mainly on IBM, Apple and Microsoft alone. It's really sad, cuz companies like Commodore and Sinclair get no mention in these documentaries and shows.

[Foebane]

I see this all the time. A lot of documentaries on computers focus mainly on IBM, Apple and Microsoft alone. It's really sad, cuz companies like Commodore and Sinclair get no mention in these documentaries and shows.

 

Are those docs from the USA, by any chance? Cos that's the status quo over there in Yankland, even then.

 

Over here in Europe, it was FAR more culturally diverse.

[atarian1]

Sure, could be that I was unaware of them - but thought I had a good general awareness of these things, which is why I find it fascinating that living where I did, all these ST shops were elusive to me. So, what were the shop names and in what cities?[/background]

 

Unfortunately, I wish I had a newsletter or something from the Chicago user groups, but I have never been to that city, so I can only go by memory of what I read in newsletters and magazines. Some browsing showed that there was a Lake County Atari Computer Enthusiasts user group too, so that's at least 3 users groups in the Chicago area. It would be silly not to have dealers advertise in the newsletters. I know my local Atari dealers always advertised in the user group newsletters since this is their major customer base. I wish these old user groups would put their newsletters online for all of us to reference.

 

As an aside and besides all the places I shopped in the 80's between Lake and Cook Counties, wife worked at Software Etc. at Lakehurst Mall that had zero ST software, but had Amiga. Would frequent Babbages at Northbrook Court & Hawthorn Mall - zero ST software, but had Amiga. Same with Electronics Boutique at Gurnee Mills and Randhurst. Had an Amiga computer store in Mundelein, one in Vernon Hills, one in Wheeling, DesPlaines, Arlington Heights and 2 in Niles. UFP Computers in Woodridge, MicroED in Chicago and PixelVision also in Chicago. Just to name a "few" but yeah, guess I never went outside.

WTF? This has nothing to do with the original point. We are talking about Atari dealers, yet you decide to change subject by listing Amiga dealers. What is it with Amiga fanboys and their insecurity to grandstand everything and then show their ignorance of anything that is not Amiga related? Whatever man, it's useless trying to have a good conversation with fanboys.

Edited February 14, 2016 by atarian1

[eccofonic]

That's cool... besides the occasional trip down to Chicago, never really had a reason to venture that far southwest (Streamwood or Hanover Park) for computer stuff. Don't remember an ST shop in Glenview, but could have missed it obviously. Did most all of my living a bit farther north, even though I covered quite a bit of territory thanks to my other hobbies.

 

Heh, I did run across a vintage business card today ...although I do not remember them selling ST or C64 stuff by the time I discovered them (late 80's/early 90's) but still... pretty cool! I frequented their Wheeling location much more and that's the place where they used an ST as their cash register. No other software in this particular store than Amiga and PC, but only later by the mid 90's.

 

IMG_1076.jpg

 

There was also Mars Merchandising in Lombard, IL. I remember going there around 1990 and besides having some ST stuff, they had all kinds of new-in-the-box 8-bit software from the early 80's (Synapse, Epyx, etc).

 

There was also a computer store... that I don't remember the name of... in the city of Chicago... it was fairly large and on one of the main streets just off 94 in the north part of the city, like Irving Park or Addison. I remember even in 1993 they had a huge wall lined with U.K. import games for the Atari ST.

[+save2600]

WTF? This has nothing to do with the original point. We are talking about Atari dealers, yet you decide to change subject by listing Amiga dealers. What is it with Amiga fanboys and their insecurity to grandstand everything and then show their ignorance of anything that is not Amiga related? Whatever man, it's useless trying to have a good conversation with fanboys.

Ha, the point consistently missed and the reason machines like the ST may not included in documentaries (pursuant to the op's observation) or in books where the Amiga is already covered, is for every ST shop that existed in a densely populated area such as Lake and Cook Counties, there were several times that in Amiga shops. If I were to hazard a guess, probably at least 3-4x Amiga to ST. That's not being a "fanboy". That's having a common sense awareness on the topic based on experience. And then how many more times that in PC shops? YMMV regionally, but then again, you didn't have national chains supporting the ST like you did the Amiga either. So what do you attribute that phenomenon to?

 

Look, I too think it sucks when machines such as Atari and Commodore are overlooked historically or worse yet, overlooked by "documentaries" or books that are trying to bring history to the forefront. But it is what it is and I've already tried to explain why these things happen. I'll just leave it at that.

[Bill Loguidice]

Ha, the point consistently missed and the reason machines like the ST may not included in documentaries (pursuant to the op's observation) or books where the Amiga is already covered, is for every ST shop that existed in a densely populated area such as Lake and Cook Counties, there were several times that in Amiga shops. If I were to hazard a guess, probably at least 3-4x Amiga to ST. That's not being a "fanboy". That's having a common sense awareness on the topic based on experience. And then how many more times that in PC shops? YMMV regionally, but then again, you didn't have national chains supporting the ST like you did the Amiga either. So what do you attribute that phenomenon to?

 

And again, it's essentially arguing over who had the best selling niche system. As we know from the sales figures, neither the Amiga nor the ST ever sold as much as the PC or Macintosh platforms, and sometimes didn't sell as much as the C-64. So while the Amiga platform clearly sold better than the ST platform, it's still not necessarily something to crow about, and is why neither platform is particularly well remembered outside of those of us into this stuff (and certainly the Amiga does fare a bit better in that regard).

[Keatah]

Well.. there has to be winners and losers.

 

In casual conversation with non-gaming people, everybody remembers the Commodore 64, the Apple II and IBM PC. Nothing for the ST, Amiga, or even Atari 8-bit machines.

 

For game consoles, pretty much only the VCS, NES, and N64 were broadly remembered. Vectrex, Astrocade, Intellivision, Colecovision and even the 1st PS-One, and all Sega stuff is basically unknown.

[+DarkLord]

I think it's also important to recognize when things happened. If system X eventually

outsold system Y, then that has to be acknowledged. But it also has to be accepted

that Y did not outsell X at first, for however long that time period was.

 

That system Y eventually bypassed X doesn't make X any less significant or take

away its contributions...

[kimchipenguin]

First, the ST probably did not sell 6-7 million units. The ST is mentioned and shown in music documentaries and I've also seen Midi Maze mentioned in a documentary about first person shooters.

 

Most retro documentaries are about games and the ST was never the most popular games machine, nor the computer with very distinctive games, other than Midi Maze. Most games were ported to the Amiga or later developed for the Commodore as the lead platform. So, in a book or documentary with limited space/length, it makes sense to include only references and concentrate on the Amiga instead.

 

For game consoles, pretty much only the VCS, NES, and N64 were broadly remembered. Vectrex, Astrocade, Intellivision, Colecovision and even the 1st PS-One, and all Sega stuff is basically unknown.

 

 

Lol, N64, seriously? A console that was - by Nintendo standards - a relative failure? I think you'd find more people remembering PS One, Super Nintendo and Sega Genesis/Mega Drive than N64.

[+DarkLord]

If you don't think that Dungeon Master was distinctive, then you're using that word

in a way I'm unfamiliar with.

[Bill Loguidice]

If you don't think that Dungeon Master was distinctive, then you're using that word

in a way I'm unfamiliar with.

 

Dungeon Master was indeed distinctive, although it's arguably better (better sound at least) in the Amiga version, and probably just as fondly remembered there, even as a port. There are certainly more than Dungeon Master and MIDI Maze to give ST owners the warm fuzzies, but again, even platforms that were considered true failures (which the ST was not) have their standout titles. I think it's a different type of argument that's taking place here.

[+DarkLord]

 

Dungeon Master was indeed distinctive, although it's arguably better (better sound at least) in the Amiga version, and probably just as fondly remembered there, even as a port. There are certainly more than Dungeon Master and MIDI Maze to give ST owners the warm fuzzies, but again, even platforms that were considered true failures (which the ST was not) have their standout titles. I think it's a different type of argument that's taking place here.

 

Bill, the post that I was responding too stated this:

 

"nor the computer with very distinctive games, other than Midi Maze"

 

I was simply pointing out that Midi Maze was not the only distinctive game on the Atari ST,

and DM was a perfect example to prove that point.

 

I also said nothing about which version was better or worse. Again, simply pointing out that

Dungeon Master was originally designed and released on the Atari ST - no matter how many

other platforms it was later ported too - or how good or bad those were, or how long they had

to wait to get them.

 

Thank you.

[Bill Loguidice]

I was simply pointing out that Midi Maze was not the only distinctive game on the Atari ST,

and DM was a perfect example to prove that point.

 

Understood. The point I was making is that Dungeon Master is beloved on the Amiga as well, so, despite originating on the ST, it's not necessarily best remembered on that platform (fair or unfair as that is). MIDI Maze was multi-platform as well, but I'd argue it's best remembered on the ST, particularly since it was designed for its unique (save for two Yamaha MSX 1 computers) port.

[+DarkLord]

This is probably going to be a bit subjective.

 

However, any google search on Dungeon Master clearly shows it's ST roots.

Any review of DM in any Amiga based magazine inevitably included a description

detailing its history. Also, considering the number of awards the game won in

notable gaming magazines, *before* it was released on the Amiga, it's hard to

imagine people were not aware.

 

I just can't imagine anyone who knows anything at all about DM not knowing

where it came from.

 

Again, I think this is going to be subjective...

 

<shrugs>

[atarian1]

Ha, the point consistently missed and the reason machines like the ST may not included in documentaries (pursuant to the op's observation) or in books where the Amiga is already covered, is for every ST shop that existed in a densely populated area such as Lake and Cook Counties, there were several times that in Amiga shops. If I were to hazard a guess, probably at least 3-4x Amiga to ST. That's not being a "fanboy". That's having a common sense awareness on the topic based on experience. And then how many more times that in PC shops? YMMV regionally, but then again, you didn't have national chains supporting the ST like you did the Amiga either. So what do you attribute that phenomenon to?

 

Look, I too think it sucks when machines such as Atari and Commodore are overlooked historically or worse yet, overlooked by "documentaries" or books that are trying to bring history to the forefront. But it is what it is and I've already tried to explain why these things happen. I'll just leave it at that.

 

 

What I was getting at was that you were saying or at least implying that you didn’t see any Atari dealers in the Chicago area, it must mean that Ataris didn’t sell. That is not a good metric because even you finally said that YMMV. I am sure there are places that there were more Atari dealers than Amiga dealers. It doesn’t necessarily mean that Atari sold more than Amiga either.

[chepe]

Companies which survived have rewritten history quite a bit so "non-standard" platforms tend to be forgotten. I remember how Microsoft used to claim (maybe still does) that they invented graphic user interfaces. Once I saw red when estabilished technical magazine celebrated IBM PC release anniversary, claiming how it was "revolutionary" and "for the first time, brought computers to people's homes."

 

In Europe, particularly on continent, ST was the prime gaming platform for more 'serious' games up until ~1990 when PC w/VGA started to become affordable. Strategy games and flight simulators were usually better on ST than on Amiga. This is why I thought Atari missed a beat when they didn't upgrade CPU with STE (in 'STE under the hood' -thread). These games were popular and suffered less from piracy than arcade type games. A more powerful CPU would have enabled the platform to stay competive with PC for few more years.