Wii U will reportedly cease production this year

[Schizophretard]

The number of PC gamers DOES matter though, as I think we've forgotten the topic. It's not, is the console scene going to crash. I'm not sure who shoe horned that in my mouth, but that wasn't my point in bringing up PC sales or PS4 sales.

I think it was me that shoe horned that in your mouth. The way I was understanding it is that hundreds of thousands and even millions are gravitating towards PC and therefore the number of console gamers are declining. Also, when you responded with,"How do you figure?" to Bill's claim that,"The console market doesn't need saving. At least not for the foreseeable future." I took you to mean that the console market does in fact need saving and, to my mind, a console market that needs saving but doesn't get saved is the very definition of a console crash.

 

The point was simply to show that most gamers in the console scene are gravitating towards one single console or the PC.

I don't see how that is an issue. Once most gamers gravitated towards the NES or computer games and Bill's claim would have been correct then that the console market doesn't need saving. Gravitating towards one console doesn't equate to a console market that needs saving. Once upon a time, the Atari 2600 was the one console gamers gravitated towards. Granted, a crash did happen. However, one of the reasons claimed for that was the introduction of other new consoles. In other words, there are times when one console holding a monopoly is a healthy console market and times when multiple consoles is a healthy console market. An unhealthy console market is when gamers aren't gravitating towards even one anymore.

 

The point in bringing up PC was simply to show that those gamers are coming from SOMEWHERE

Maybe the world population pretty much doubling since the beginning of consoles, developing nations and just the world population in general getting access to more advanced technology like computers, people not jumping ship from consoles but are brand new gamers that start on computers, many console gamers being counted twice and within the PC numbers representing that they are into both and not completely jumping ship, etc? In short, the answer to where they are all coming from could be that globally people are both gaming and fucking more.

 

Basically, since 2005 (Wii era) PC has gone from half a million games sold to becoming a market that sells one billion dollars more than all console games combined. Those users had to have come from somewhere.

Maybe all those babies born from all that fucking can use a computer now?

 

The number of PC gamers DOES matter though

I think the only number that matters is the number of console gamers. For an example, if there was a graph that showed the number of consoles gamers from the beginning of console gaming up to today. If the graph shows either an upward trend or is just sitting at a user base size that has been considered historically a healthy market then either would be a sign that the console market is still healthy. But if the graphed showed a dramatic downward trend then that would be a sign that the console market is unhealthy. It doesn't matter if the rest of the entire world population were PC gamers anymore than it would matter if the rest of the entire world population wasn't gamers at all because if there are just as many console gamers or more than there were then the size of the market is still the same. Here is an example of what I mean:

 

Let's say that the world population is 10 billion, 1 billion of them send letters in the mail, and the 9 billion of everyone else doesn't send letters at all. Then 20 years from now the pollution grows to 50 billion, 1 billion of them still send letters in the mail, and the 49 billion of everyone else now sends letters by email. In that hypothetical scenario there was obviously a dramatic change over 20 years but did it have an affect on the demand for postage stamps? I mean, there are still 1 billion people buying them just as there were 20 years ago and the market for sending letters through the mail is the same. The only things that changed was that the people that send letters in the mail became a lower percentage of the population while the rest of the population adopted email but it didn't change that there were and still are 1 billion people sending letters through the mail while producing the same demand to sell postage stamps.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I am honestly a bit surprised to hear reports that PC gaming is booming. The PC hardware market, especially in terms of performance, is hurting. There is a huge industry push towards mobile, and lighter, more efficient CPUs, whether x86 or ARM based. Excepting niche applications like Raspberry Pi, ARM devices in general are all walled gardens, and the PC market is obsessed with lighter, smaller, more efficient PCs, rather than more powerful.

 

I built an 8-core AMD bulldozer desktop in late 2011 for the purpose of fractal rendering, OC at 4.2Ghz. I later expanded it to 16Gb of dual channel 1867Mhz, and have no reason to upgrade. Where are our 16-core desktop processors? Short answer: they don't exist. Why? Most people don't need it.

 

Since most users only use PCs for web surfing, casual gaming, or office productivity apps, any marginally good PC of the last 5 years can still run everything they need it to, so why upgrade? The PC industry is hurting. Even Microsoft has to practically give their spyware laden Windoze 10 away for free to get people to use it. People aren't buying new PCs because they have an old one that still works, or are supplanting their online needs with mobile devices, and the "walled garden" app stores that come preinstalled on them.

 

So, forgive me if I sound naive, but I'm a bit shocked to hear that PC gaming is booming, when the desktop hardware industry is suffering badly.

[Schizophretard]

So, forgive me if I sound naive, but I'm a bit shocked to hear that PC gaming is booming, when the desktop hardware industry is suffering badly.

 

 

Maybe more games have been developed to run on "outdated" hardware?

[Bill Loguidice]

PC gaming is healthy with no signs of going in the opposite direction, but not necessarily booming. Hardware sales have definitely plateaued at best, but this may get a slight bump from VR upgraders before leveling off again. In any case, there are probably 80 - 100 million genuinely active PC gamers worldwide, which compares quite favorably with the number of active console users, which is probably in the same range. Of course, both those numbers have varying degrees of activity and usage, with obviously fewer of what are considered core gamers and more of what are considered casual gamers (not that I always agree with the delineation), but the fact remains both markets as a whole (and not picking out individual underperformers like the Wii U) are extremely healthy.

 

We've long since crossed the tipping point where there's any danger of any part of the industry crashing or big players not wanting their own piece of the pie. The reality is, only in comparison to smarpthones are any of the numbers for either side not that impressive. For a variety of reasons, the smartphone market has raised the bar for personal electronics.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Changing the subject slightly, but there is a quite substantial leak regarding the NX hardware. It has and ARM, rumored to be more powerful than PS4, and reads 25Gb single layer proprietary BluRay disc. The tablet controller has it's own dedicated CPU and uses a capacitive touch screen with real tactile buttons and sticks built into the screen.

http://gamingbolt.com/nintendo-nx-mega-leak-specs-controller-handheld-better-performance-than-ps4-and-more

[Bill Loguidice]

Changing the subject slightly, but there is a quite substantial leak regarding the NX hardware. It has and ARM, rumored to be more powerful than PS4, and reads 25Gb single layer proprietary BluRay disc. The tablet controller has it's own dedicated CPU and uses a capacitive touch screen with real tactile buttons and sticks built into the screen.

http://gamingbolt.com/nintendo-nx-mega-leak-specs-controller-handheld-better-performance-than-ps4-and-more

 

I don't put a lot of stock in this leak either, although some of it seems like it's a logical plan for Nintendo, so there's probably at least some truth to it by default. However, if it uses ARM it's going to be very difficult to be more powerful than PS4 or Xbox One unless you're using very specific metrics. That also doesn't bode well for porting, which we know has to be a goal of this platform, i.e., to handle the same types of games made for PS4/Xbox One/PC. So perhaps the main console has a "standard" CPU and the handheld portion is the one that uses ARM. I don't know how that would work though for running games between the two, unless of course Nintendo refines its core Wii U streaming technology and that's how the handheld plays its games. In that regard it wouldn't need a matching CPU, or even a CPU as powerful. That of course does present its own set of issues, including a handheld portion that would require a strong Internet connection to play most games outside of your own home.

[Gentlegamer]

Publishing on PC through Steam is easy and very few games push hardware limits like they did in the past.

 

Steam sales and Humble Bundles make it easy to acquire huge, cheap, good PC game "libraries" to play.

[Mord]

I don't see how that is an issue. Once most gamers gravitated towards the NES or computer games and Bill's claim would have been correct then that the console market doesn't need saving. Gravitating towards one console doesn't equate to a console market that needs saving.

 

The main difference between the 8-bit era and today is that a company that wants to have a non-laughable attempt at bringing a -successful- console to market has to have BILLIONS of dollars at it's disposal. That wasn't nearly as true back when the Atari 2600 or NES were launched. So yeah, having major console makers throw in the towel at this point is probably a bigger deal than it use to be. (Which is what would happen if everyone gravitated to a single console.) Luckily while Sony has a huge lead, it still isn't quite as one sided at it was under the 2600 or NES. The problem with having just one console and no choice is that it makes for a far less responsive console maker to consumer needs/expectations.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

The main difference between the 8-bit era and today is that a company that wants to have a non-laughable attempt at bringing a -successful- console to market has to have BILLIONS of dollars at it's disposal. That wasn't nearly as true back when the Atari 2600 or NES were launched. So yeah, having major console makers throw in the towel at this point is probably a bigger deal than it use to be. (Which is what would happen if everyone gravitated to a single console.) Luckily while Sony has a huge lead, it still isn't quite as one sided at it was under the 2600 or NES. The problem with having just one console and no choice is that it makes for a far less responsive console maker to consumer needs/expectations.

Another thing to remember, is that unlike Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony do not have all their eggs in a single basket. MS and Sony both have other corporate divisions (hardware, software, entertainment, etc) distributing their wealth, so can afford to trade huge short term losses for gradual long term gains. Nintendo has money in the bank from the Wii/DS era, but trodding along a couple years in the red in hopes that they will return to the black, as with Wii-U and 3DS, is a risky strategy as well as a turnoff to investors. Spending money over any amount of time without gains devalues the stock price. Investors demand short term gains as opposed to long term. Because a portion of this money stockpile lining Nintendo's coffers is owned by investors, they do have a say in how Nintendo spends it, hence the continued push towards mobile, despite the outcry of fans and potential damage to the long term viability of Nintendo as a company to survive in the console market. Diluting the brand would only make a hostile takeover by third party (Sony or MS buyout) or conversion to software only (ie "pulling a Sega"), a likely scenario should the NX fail, more likely.

 

As a diehard fan, I want to see Nintendo survive in the hardware business, providing an alternative to Sony/MS. As a third wheel in the console race, Nintendo has brought much innovation to the gaming ecosystem as a whole. Sony and MS seem hell bent on producing "supercomputer" consoles with total emphasis on HD and poly count. Neither Sony or Microsoft has truly innovated their controller design since the original PS1 Dual Shock or Xbox "Zero," and after all is said and done, aside from HD, online, and horsepower, there really isn't a huge difference between say a PS2 and PS4 game. This stagnation with the big two is likely to remain if Nintendo does not continue to play by their own rules. And the less said about mobile the better. Mobile gaming's "race to the bottom" is a parasite cancer that is highly toxic to the concept of traditional console gaming. Indie devs seem to be bringing us full circle back to gaming's simpler roots, but neither the indie movement, nor the retro gaming renaissance as a whole, are enough to neutralize this 9000 pound mammoth's devastating impact.

[Schizophretard]

The main difference between the 8-bit era and today is that a company that wants to have a non-laughable attempt at bringing a -successful- console to market has to have BILLIONS of dollars at it's disposal. That wasn't nearly as true back when the Atari 2600 or NES were launched.

To see that difference I would need to know how much money Warner Communications and Nintendo had at their disposal while also adjusting it for inflation.

[Schizophretard]

...there really isn't a huge difference between say a PS2 and PS4 game...

[Mord]

To see that difference I would need to know how much money Warner Communications and Nintendo had at their disposal while also adjusting it for inflation.

 

Just be sure to adjust the prices of all the materials used, wages paid, and available money from consumers back then for inflation as well while you're at it. Inflation only looks like it changes the argument when you adjust one portion of an economy while leaving everything else the same when you make your argument. You'll find consumers are poorer today despite having higher numbers on their paycheck. Materials are cheaper, despite having a heavier price tag, and far less is paid out value-wise in wages, despite it looking pretty hefty on paper.

[Schizophretard]

Just be sure to adjust the prices of all the materials used, wages paid, and available money from consumers back then for inflation as well while you're at it. Inflation only looks like it changes the argument when you adjust one portion of an economy while leaving everything else the same when you make your argument. You'll find consumers are poorer today despite having higher numbers on their paycheck. Materials are cheaper, despite having a heavier price tag, and far less is paid out value-wise in wages, despite it looking pretty hefty on paper.

But you used one portion of an economy while leaving everything else the same when you made your argument that it takes billions of dollars of disposable income in today's dollars to bring a successful console to market while comparing it to making the Atari 2600 and NES successes. Anyway, I wasn't making an argument in the first place. I was stating a fact that for me to see your point I need the numbers. Just stating that it takes billions of dollars now but not then is just providing the conclusion of a math problem without providing the math problem.

 

But then if I saw your point I would still need to see how console companies in the 8-bit era only needing millions of dollars equates to it being easier to make a console successful than today if it requires billions of dollars. I mean, if all the competitors are millionaires then the competition could be just as fierce and just as hard to be successful as if all the competitors were billionaires like today because all competitors would have similar economical advantages relative to each other. To use an analogy, in ancient times it only took swords to win a war while today it takes much more advanced weapons. But that doesn't equate to it being easier to win ancient wars just because it only took swords because everyone had swords and weren't going up against tanks.

[Flojomojo]

Plot thickens: http://www.cnet.com/news/nintendo-no-were-not-killing-off-the-wii-u/

 

Apparently the console shall live on with no plans to kill it off.

 

Bullshit misinformation spread by bullshit, lazy-ass 'journalists'. And I fell for it!

 

I hate feeling duped. Duped I tell you!

Of course they said that. That's exactly what they'd say, even if it were true! Also see: Osborne Effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect

 

Four years is not a terrible run (Xbox original did the same term), especially when it produced a bunch of good, unique games.

 

I think I'm aging out of TV-attached consoles, and I haven't played my 3DS as much as I'd like, but I'm curious to see what they do next.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

Just be sure to adjust the prices of all the materials used, wages paid, and available money from consumers back then for inflation as well while you're at it. Inflation only looks like it changes the argument when you adjust one portion of an economy while leaving everything else the same when you make your argument. You'll find consumers are poorer today despite having higher numbers on their paycheck. Materials are cheaper, despite having a heavier price tag, and far less is paid out value-wise in wages, despite it looking pretty hefty on paper.

 

From a practical standpoint, though, I'd say the collective we have more personal gadgets than ever and, even if what you say is true, that our collective incomes are relatively lower, the adjusted prices on these devices are clearly not more than said incomes can bear. In other words, whatever the adjustment may or may not be for lowered income, device prices are well within range of the average person these days.

[Tempest]

It doesn't really matter what Nintendo does with the Wii-U at this point, as far as the marketplace is concerned it's dead. The only people buying games for it right now are people who already own it and want to get some of the exclusives (I'm digging Bayonetta 2 right now). I don't see any new people buying it unless they really want to play something like Splatoon or Super Mario World 3D.

[Andromeda Stardust]

It doesn't really matter what Nintendo does with the Wii-U at this point, as far as the marketplace is concerned it's dead. The only people buying games for it right now are people who already own it and want to get some of the exclusives (I'm digging Bayonetta 2 right now). I don't see any new people buying it unless they really want to play something like Splatoon or Super Mario World 3D.

But new people are buying them. A couple of forum members admitted finally getting one for Christmas. Also Zelda U will sell a lot of consoles as well, assuming it releases before the NX. As a spiritual successor to OOT, it will be epic when released!

 

Kinda ironic people are claiming the Wii-U is dead when stores are still selling the Wii minis.

[Bill Loguidice]

But new people are buying them. A couple of forum members admitted finally getting one for Christmas. Also Zelda U will sell a lot of consoles as well, assuming it releases before the NX. As a spiritual successor to OOT, it will be epic when released!

 

Kinda ironic people are claiming the Wii-U is dead when stores are still selling the Wii minis.

 

We don't need to go through the numbers again, do we? It's selling in small quantities, yes, but it is effectively dead by most competitive metrics. Other big titles have given the Wii U a small boost, but nothing like what it ever truly needed in terms of game-changing (ahem) momentum. By the time Zelda comes out for the Wii U - and mostly likely simultaneously for the NX - it will probably sell the usual several million that the highest tier Nintendo titles sell to mostly people who already have the console. The reality is even this one last gasp AAA first party title for the Wii U likely won't be enough to push it very far past 15 million lifetime sales when all is said and done, i.e., the console is officially discontinued. It certainly doesn't help that the NX announcement in June (and likely holiday release) will further dampen enthusiasm for the Wii U even among the Nintendo faithful.

[Flojomojo]

Kinda ironic people are claiming the Wii-U is dead when stores are still selling the Wii minis.

 

They're stocking them, but selling them might be overstating the situation.

 

You know what freaks me out? Wii was 10 years ago, but still found in stores ... which would be like seeing an Atari VCS in 1989 alongside the Sega Genesis. I know that happened (ahh, Toys'R'Us) but WHOA I'm old.

[Atariboy]

Look deep into your local Wal-Mart's bargain. You'll likely find something like the GTA Trilogy for the PS2, a console that's now 16 years old. Even had a presence in Wal-Mart's Black Friday ad last November.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Atariboy

[+xucaen]

Does this mean their online store will be going away? I still have $20 on the Wii shop.

[Schizophretard]

Look deep into your local Wal-Mart's bargain. You'll likely find something like the GTA Trilogy for the PS2, a console that's now 16 years old. Even had a presence in Wal-Mart's Black Friday ad last November.

 

I saw that exact title the other day at Walmart. I also saw Wii, PS3, and XBOX 360 games.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Does this mean their online store will be going away? I still have $20 on the Wii shop.

I don't imagine any time soon. The online multiplayer servers for all Wii games have been pulled, but the Wii shop Channel still remains up for the time being, and is accessible to both Wii and Wii-U owners. You just can't use it on the Wii Minis because there's no wifi or USB. Nintendo was stupid for not including a wifi chip on those. Potential revenue on VC sales lost forever to the big N...

 

As long as someone out there is still buying items on the Wii Whop channel, the Shop server will likely remain up, and Nintendo will likely release a big public service announcement before it shuts down so people can download any last minute VC titles or WiiWare. Which reminds me, I still need to DL Neutopia I & II on Turbografx VC...

[Atariboy]

I really doubt that they lost more than they gained by eliminating wifi on those budget consoles. They were aimed at kids and Nintendo wanted to drive the price as low as possible. I'm confident just as Nintendo must've been that few would buy a system where digital distribution and other online capabilities were so unimportant at such a late date and proceed to delve into the online experience in a big way.

 

The puzzling bit is why the USB ethernet adapter wasn't at least supported. Would seem to have been a free addition that would've allowed a compromise for the minority interested in the feature on their brand new decade old game console (You can fit a fair number of VC/WiiWare games on the Wii's internal memory, Netflix works without SD card, etc.). That and the elimination of component video capabilities left me scratching my head a bit.

 

But no WiFi, continuing the lack of GCN compatibility, and no SD card slot made perfect sense for a very late budget revision of a console that largely was traditional with the focus even when it was new placed squarely on single and local multiplayer via software played off a physical disc.

 

It was all about getting the MSRP down to $99.99 (And for a while I thought that they'd take it even further, but they never did).

 

The online multiplayer servers for all Wii games have been pulled

 

Nope, some 3rd party titles remain online to this day like various Activision published shooters. I've played several Wii titles over online multiplayer just this year.

 

In fact there's been new additions to the Wii's online multiplayer roster since Nintendo pulled their own support for software like Mario Kart Wii when the changes happened over at GameSpy.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Atariboy

[cimerians]

Ugh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjwVr1pY9tc

 

 

Cimerians' personal thought of the day:

Sheesh....after logging into My Nintendo today I think they need to expand a bit like comic books, get a little grown up for chrissake. Its almost embarrassing hitting that site at work. They don't need to convert 100% but I think Marvel and DC does a pretty good job of showing their characters in traditional kid friendly form (especially in retail) as well as more young adult to adult (comics and movies) Not asking for a brooding megalomaniac Mario but they need to embrace more adults and adult content, I just don't think you can stick with McDonalds or childrens Disney ads and apps forever. Then again maybe that's there whole plan, its been that way for years now so why am I complaining?

 

Nevermind.