Do You Think A Price Crash Is Coming?

[cybercylon]

I'm seriously considering stocking up on some everdrives and comparing playability. If I like them I could easily see myself dumping my collection and that would take a very long time. While I do like the massive wall of games they do take up way too much space. I would rather have a few pinball machines or room for my foosballs tables and such.

 

How does one dump their own carts these days? I would probably play these games more if I didn't have to drag out a system to play them on.

[Cynicaster]

Agreed with almost everything you said, however Kirby is NOT a B-List game!!!

Alright, B+ list then.

[icemanxp300]

 

How does one dump their own carts these days? I would probably play these games more if I didn't have to drag out a system to play them on.

LOL. First off when I said "dumping" I meant selling.

 

2nd you can dump your games if they are cartridge by removing the roms off the pcb and reading them in an eprom programmer. There may be methods to read them w/out removing them, not sure. If a disc game you simply just make an image of it.

 

3rd dumping your games is pointless as practically every game is already available in forms of roms or disc images all over the internet. Simply go download them.

[Flojomojo]

Downloaded ROMs are going to be 100% identical to anything you can dump yourself, but there's a little slice of people who think that if you make your own copy of your own cartridges, that's more legal than downloading a copy from someone else. I can see the philosophical difference, but these are digital bits, ones and zeroes, and they'll be exactly the same, much more so than say ripping a CD to a downsampled file.

[phoenixdownita]

Downloaded ROMs are going to be 100% identical to anything you can dump yourself, but there's a little slice of people who think that if you make your own copy of your own cartridges, that's more legal than downloading a copy from someone else. I can see the philosophical difference, but these are digital bits, ones and zeroes, and they'll be exactly the same, much more so than say ripping a CD to a downsampled file.

Yeah, I don't see the judge buying it:

 

Dude: " ...... but but but, your honor, I dumped them myself, it's gotta count for something!"

Judge:" .... so you cannot even say you downloaded them by mistake .... I see!!!"

[Flojomojo]

Heh heh, yeah.

Not that this would ever get to a judge, of course.

Thank goodness.

[Keatah]

How does one dump their own carts these days? I would probably play these games more if I didn't have to drag out a system to play them on.

 

You use an EPROM programmer. You can connect the ROM in question to the programmer by using an IC test clip. This way you don't have to unsolder the chip. One row of pins lines up, the other needs a set of jumper wires.

There are other options like In Circuit Emulator connectors and other fixtures to get it all connected too.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Keatah

[Schizophretard]

Downloaded ROMs are going to be 100% identical to anything you can dump yourself, but there's a little slice of people who think that if you make your own copy of your own cartridges, that's more legal than downloading a copy from someone else. I can see the philosophical difference, but these are digital bits, ones and zeroes, and they'll be exactly the same, much more so than say ripping a CD to a downsampled file.

 

To keep it legal you would have to keep the originals anyway. So, if you are going to sell them then it makes dumping your own even more pointless. Anyway, I suspect that the government's reasoning for there being a difference is that it is illegal to make them available online and therefore downloading them even if you own them encourages illegal activity.

[Keatah]

So what happens where there the originals are lost-stolen-destroyed and no compensation is recovered through an insurance claim? Then can you have romz?

[icemanxp300]

So what happens where there the originals are lost-stolen-destroyed and no compensation is recovered through an insurance claim? Then can you have romz?

 

Nope, you no longer own the original lol.

[Keatah]

I have started donating various mint and sealed items of my collection to The Strong in Rochester, NY for future generations to study and enjoy. One thing that turns collectors stomachs is they do break the shrink-wrap on sealed items due to off-gassing from the plastics and the warping effects of tension. I know nothing about the technical aspects of the off-gassing effect on paper boxes, but I know they take preservation of physical copy video games dead seriously. I figure in 50 years there are not going to be many mint copies of 20th century video games which means all that amazing box art lost due to mishandling and negligence. Their collection has many gaps and you can view it online.

 

http://www.museumofplay.org/online-collections/

 

I totally agree here and that removing the wrap is a good thing compared to the alternative.

 

As a NIB CIB MIB item ages, some types of wrap continue shrinking and eventually cause the box to warp and bend. It's relentless! And it doesn't rip or tear or develop holes through which the outgassings from the plastic cartridge can escape.

 

Other types of wrap becomes brittle and rips, but doesn't warp or bend the box. And the offgassings can escape.

 

When I get something SW'ed I'll usually cut it to relieve stress. Or place it in a baggie once it's all de-gassed. Or perhaps just leave it partly wrapped.

 

And removed shrinkwrap is no big deal. It can be re-applied in the future should the collector so desire.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Keatah

[Keatah]

On the other hand. I would imagine some collectors are total completists to the extreme and want to preserve the smell and gassings that are inside the box. Take that away and the item is now invalid!

 

I speak from experience, there's a couple of Apple II items that smelled like those old computer stores and circuit boards. And keeping that odor is as important as the item itself.

 

I've even at one time sealed two items in a glass container. One that was "fresh" and "rich" in smell, and the other one which was totally odorless that I picked up at a computer festival. I was hoping to get some transference and diffusion of the smell molecules from one board to the other. It's a slow process and can take years. And must be done in totally darkness, never sunlight. Because sunlight eliminates odors through UV sterilization and ionizing radiation.

 

There are other ways of restoring the original smell, too. Most involve the proximity transference method. But you can just go to BigBox and get various items made of the appropriate PVC and use those. Wrapping things in inflatables also works!

 

On the flipside - the fastest way to degas something is to put it in the sun, but be aware of color fade. Either that or seal it an aquarium with one of those IonicBreeze units from The Sharper Image. Repeated heating and cooling cycles in the garage followed up with desiccant or anything hygroscopic is helpful.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Keatah

[Keatah]

Nope, you no longer own the original lol.

 

What if you have the bill of sale and a report from the insurance company?

Isn't that proof enough that only one instance of the material has been maintained?

[Andromeda Stardust]

Downloaded ROMs are going to be 100% identical to anything you can dump yourself, but there's a little slice of people who think that if you make your own copy of your own cartridges, that's more legal than downloading a copy from someone else. I can see the philosophical difference, but these are digital bits, ones and zeroes, and they'll be exactly the same, much more so than say ripping a CD to a downsampled file.

 

How does one dump their own carts these days? I would probably play these games more if I didn't have to drag out a system to play them on.

Retrode II (SNES, Genesis, N64, SMS, GB/C/A):

http://www.retrode.org/

 

CopyNES (piggyback add on for NES CPU - dumps NES games to USB):

http://www.retrousb.com/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=36

 

Kazzo (USB NES dumper and NES/SNES programmer):

http://www.infiniteneslives.com/kazzo.php

 

I have a Retrode with GB and N64 add-ons myself, and a CopyNES dumper installed on my NES. Nothing commercially available for dumping Atari games, I'm afraid.

 

 

You use an EPROM programmer. You can connect the ROM in question to the programmer by using an IC test clip. This way you don't have to unsolder the chip. One row of pins lines up, the other needs a set of jumper wires.

clip16.jpg

There are other options like In Circuit Emulator connectors and other fixtures to get it all connected too.

Sometimes these don't always work right if the cartridge has on-board mapper hardware. The mapper circuit will typically drive the MSB address pins low or high. In order to dump the game data without desoldering, you need to send signal to the mapper circuit to make different banks within the Mask or EPROM available and dump each bank separately to reconstruct the ROM. This is why there is no Retrode add-on for NES games, because identifying the mapper of unknown game is a nightmare. Retron5 / Retro Freak uses a ROM database to dump NES and Famicom games, which is why new modern homebrew with fancy pants flash mappers will never work.

 

 

I totally agree here and that removing the wrap is a good thing compared to the alternative.

 

As a NIB CIB MIB item ages, some types of wrap continue shrinking and eventually cause the box to warp and bend. It's relentless! And it doesn't rip or tear or develop holes through which the outgassings from the plastic cartridge can escape.

 

Other types of wrap becomes brittle and rips, but doesn't warp or bend the box. And the offgassings can escape.

 

When I get something SW'ed I'll usually cut it to relieve stress. Or place it in a baggie once it's all de-gassed. Or perhaps just leave it partly wrapped.

 

And removed shrinkwrap is no big deal. It can be re-applied in the future should the collector so desire.

Sealed NES games have vent holes in the wrapper so it's really a non-issue. I have a sealed NES Wario's Woods and GBA Mario Pinball Land that I keep stored in acrylic CGA cases.

 

Alright, B+ list then.

Agree to disagree...

[Schizophretard]

So what happens where there the originals are lost-stolen-destroyed and no compensation is recovered through an insurance claim? Then can you have romz?

 

I'm guessing yes because the whole point of a legal back up is to have a back up from a loss. I don't see why you would have to have evidence of a loss because the burden of proof is on them to provide evidence that it isn't a back up of your game. I don't know though because intellectual property laws are confusing and the reason they are so confusing is because they are laws about an imaginary property that doesn't even exist. Every time I hear something like,"Copying is like going to a store to shoplift a game." it sounds something like,"Taking the morning after pill is like going to a kindergarten to shoot a kid."

 

I wouldn't be surprised if someday when we have desktop nano-factories that can 3D print anything that there will be intellectual property rights for things that exist now that aren't intellectual property. For an example, I may pay to print out an apple but if I start to copy it to sell the copies for cheaper than I paid for the first to add some competition and prevent a monopoly or just give them away to people who are starving then someone would claim that I'm stealing their apples because they own a patent on that process of producing apples and they also own the copyright to the software that produces apples. But it is my matter used as building material(apples) and grown on my tree(desktop nano-factory) and the person claiming intellectual property still has their version of the same stuff. I just don't see how them coming up with the idea first would give them a right to have a monopoly on producing apples this way or a monopoly on selling all apples because they would clearly put everyone out of business that grows them the old fashion way.

 

Anyway, ROM's. I say copy them because the originals would still be owned and therefore not stolen. To copy and emulate what others are doing to create competitive prices and choices to the consumers is what free markets are all about. They aren't even producing new copies for these old retro consoles anyway so they aren't even providing the option to buy new copies.

[cybercylon]

I guess I opened the flood gates with a curiosity question!

[phoenixdownita]

 

I'm guessing yes because the whole point of a legal back up is to have a back up from a loss. I don't see why you would have to have evidence of a loss because the burden of proof is on them to provide evidence that it isn't a back up of your game. I....

So I guess we've all been robbed of the tens of thousands of games we "bought" somewhere, sometime!!!!

 

Dude:" .... but but but, your Honor, I've been robbed"

Judge:" ... so you say you owned 20K unique games which you bought during the last 20Y and that would take a small warehouse to host, small warehouse you do not have?"

Dude:" ... that's what I say."

Judge:" .... you do realize that is like buying more than 2.5 games every day for 20Y straight, rain or shine, thru thick and thin, till death ....."

Dude:" .... but but but, it is possible!"

Judge:" .. Next!!!" (in the same tone of voice of Gaia in Toshinden 1 after he handed over your ass for the nth time)

[Skippy B. Coyote]

This thread has gotten way off topic, but for what it's worth I suppose I'll chime in on the new current topic of ROM usage. To put it simply, if you're worried about the legal ramifications of being in possession of ROMs that you don't own the original cartridges for then just don't download them. Personally I can't see any government entity going after people downloading and playing several decade old games that companies aren't trying to make a profit off of anymore, but if that is something you're concerned about then it's easy enough to just stick to playing games off their original cartridges or disks.

 

For me ROMs have been great because they let me try games before I buy them. Just in the last month I've bought the original cartridges for 6 games that I know I wouldn't have bought had I not tried them out via emulation first and found out that they were great little hidden gems. They were all really good games, but I had never seen anyone talk about them before so I had no idea whether or not they'd be worth spending money on them until I downloaded the ROMs and tried them out for myself. I think for me the biggest risk that comes with playing ROMs of games I don't own is the risk of going over budget by feeling the need to run out and buy every game that I try the ROMs of and like.

 

That said, there are some systems that I do have full ROM libraries for and know that I'll never buy physical copies of the games to go with them. Systems that I enjoy playing but just have no desire to collect for. But again, I'm not too worried about it. I may be proven wrong some day but I'm pretty sure that the government has more important things to do than go after people downloading decades old games that aren't being sold at retail anymore.

[Schizophretard]

So I guess we've all been robbed of the tens of thousands of games we "bought" somewhere, sometime!!!!

 

Dude:" .... but but but, your Honor, I've been robbed"

Judge:" ... so you say you owned 20K unique games which you bought during the last 20Y and that would take a small warehouse to host, small warehouse you do not have?"

Dude:" ... that's what I say."

Judge:" .... you do realize that is like buying more than 2.5 games every day for 20Y straight, rain or shine, thru thick and thin, till death ....."

Dude:" .... but but but, it is possible!"

Judge:" .. Next!!!" (in the same tone of voice of Gaia in Toshinden 1 after he handed over your ass for the nth time)

 

I think that would qualify as them meeting their burden of proof against you. For an example, if you have a complete ROM set for MAME then with tax records and properties you have owned they could show that you were never a billionaire that owned the biggest and greatest arcade ever. On the other hand, if they just find ROM's for a few consoles and instead of complete ROM sets they find only your top 50 favorite games for them then it may be harder for them to provide evidence that you didn't once get robbed of them because it is reasonably possible that you could have. In other words, with the second scenario it is harder to show that you got the ROM's illegally beyond a reasonable doubt but with the first scenario it would be easy for them to show that.

[Andromeda Stardust]

For me ROMs have been great because they let me try games before I buy them. Just in the last month I've bought the original cartridges for 6 games that I know I wouldn't have bought had I not tried them out via emulation first and found out that they were great little hidden gems. They were all really good games, but I had never seen anyone talk about them before so I had no idea whether or not they'd be worth spending money on them until I downloaded the ROMs and tried them out for myself. I think for me the biggest risk that comes with playing ROMs of games I don't own is the risk of going over budget by feeling the need to run out and buy every game that I try the ROMs of and like.

 

You and I are a lot alike. I have hunted down more game carts recently because I played them repeatedly on my flash carts. And if the US version is too expensive, I import the Japanese variant. Then they sit on my shelf after I've acquired them because I got bored and moved onto something else...

 

¯\_(ッ)_/¯

 

As far as possession of copyrighted or illegally downloaded files, they generally only prosecute the guys distributing stuff. Be wary of bit torrents since you are uploading file fragments to other users as you download them. If you directly download from a server somewhere for private use or entertainment, and do not redistribute the files you download, you are generally safe.

[Skippy B. Coyote]

You and I are a lot alike. I have hunted down more game carts recently because I played them repeatedly on my flash carts. And if the US version is too expensive, I import the Japanese variant. Then they sit on my shelf after I've acquired them because I got bored and moved onto something else...

¯\_(ッ)_/¯

 

Nice! I don't mind getting import titles either if the US version is expensive, as long as the game is in English and I can read all the text (or at least any text relevant to playing the game or understanding it's story) I'm fine with saving a few dollars to get copies from other regions.

 

Once I have the physical game in my hands I usually play through it once right away before it goes on the shelf or in the game drawer. I say "usually" because if it's something that will take me more than an hour or two to play through and beat (like RPGs and such) then it usually goes straight to the drawer, with a mental note to play it at some point during the winter when it's too cold to go outside or do anything else other than sit indoors playing video games.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Nice! I don't mind getting import titles either if the US version is expensive, as long as the game is in English and I can read all the text (or at least any text relevant to playing the game or understanding it's story) I'm fine with saving a few dollars to get copies from other regions.

 

Once I have the physical game in my hands I usually play though it once rifht away before it goes on the shelf or in the game drawer. I say "usually" because if it's something that will take me more than an hour or two to play through and beat (like RPGs and such) they usually go straight to the drawer, with a mental note to play them at some point during the winter when it's too cold to go outside and do anything else other than sit indoors playing video games.

Winter last year 2015-2016 was a joke. Record high 82 degrees Christmas Eve in Shreveport, Louisiana. I think we had more T-shirt days than we did jacket days. Got frost like once or twice at most.

 

It snowed hard the year before though so you never know. FYI, snow is incredibly rare in Louisiana.

[Schizophretard]

So far I only have the Harmony Cart. I don't use it in this try before you buy way so much because I want it all anyway. My behavior is more like when someone buys a movie that includes the Blu-ray, DVD, and digital copy. Then they prefer to leave it on the shelf and just use the digital copy. It is something like that. I can still admire the art and read through the manuals but use the Harmony Cart to play them on.

[Flojomojo]

The judge scenarios are fun, but I can't imagine any state or federal government taking time and energy to do something so frivolous, at least not without a complaint from a rights holder. If you were doing damage to Exidy or Coleco, they're unlikely to come after you nowadays, because they're dead. Of all the game companies still in operation, only Nintendo seems to actively chase after infringing websites. From what I've seen, they don't sue anyone, they just send threatening legal letters telling you to take down the Mario ROMs.

[Professor Gull]

So in the end will ROM's help dump the prices? Ok we all know there are thousands of systems out there floating about in peoples collections and closets and storage. And after time there will be failures mechanical and electrical happening on them leaving the need for either fixing or sending to the trash heap. So ROM's and image files will they be able to off set the pricing as they might become more idealistic in a world where more computers can handle the emulation rather than trying to keep a piece of old hardware working?