Matej Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 Can small Atari achieve VOXEL game in 80x50 pixels? Something like this but more more simple??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunstar Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 (edited) If nothing else Atari, I bet the Jaguar could achieve something similar. It would be totally outrageously cool if it could be pulled off on an Atari 8-bit, maybe in a window using GTIA modes? Edited November 21, 2016 by Gunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelmischief Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 After seeing Project M, I believe damn near anything is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 A good number of demos, most prominent probably Numen and Asskicker use the VScrol trick to get the 80x50 mode. It's low on screen DMA and the required DLIs to create it don't take much so it leaves lots of CPU time for calculating and rendering. Common effects are bump-mapping, flat object rotation, multi-faced cube and solid object rotation as well as 3D first-person projections. But it's generally raycasting being used which is much less demanding than doing "proper" 3D where raytracing techniques are used. For raycasting, only one check sequence per horizontal pixel is needed when constructing the Z-buffer and deciding what object's texture is put in each place. Also, moving objects like monsters are plotted as simple 2D scaled sprites rather than being rendered as proper 3D objects. Think Wolf3D as compared to Doom, then the Quake games then modern shooters like CoD or Crysis - each iteration introduces more sophisticated rendering techniques and removes restrictions from previous ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 A mode 10 set to 80x50 could do the trick, and there's many ways to do it. One thought I had was Antic 5 using GTIA 10, and DLI's to change the character set about 4 times down the screen (or 3 times if you use narrow width screen) ... the screen is then addressed by writing to the character set memory, in the same fashion as the C=64 graphics modes. You get all 9 colors, you just aren't allowed PF2 and PM2 in the same char cell as PF3/PM3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 May I point out that above video is build of 3D voxels? And not 2.5 like Wolf etc. so this is basically "raymarching". Popmilo is heavy into it but that's why his game is not an mindcraft;) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Rybags... asskicker used the so called "Konop" mode as he invented first lower Dma mode... vscroll trick was first used in Numen and Fox found it out... First we had had 4f, adr 4f, adr 4f, adr 4f, adr ... Then 4f, adr 0 4f, adr 0 Then 4f, adr 0, 4f, adr 0 0f 0 4f, adr+32 0 ... And then Numen 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 (edited) Space Harrier plays at 160x100. Just look what's going on there... It's only the correct engine missing for some more 3D calculations at 80x50 Edited November 21, 2016 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 yup... but space harrier is 100% different to what you see at the above video 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 yup... but space harrier is 100% different to what you see at the above video The biggeest difference is about 30 years of computer history It would be nuts to expect complete 3d calculations for such a game on the A8. But a game with the right "look & feel" is still possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 You know this one: But the Atari has much more to offer for such games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I know this but that's a 2D game and not 3D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matej Posted November 21, 2016 Author Share Posted November 21, 2016 (edited) Maybe with 65c816 Rapidus+VBXE? Here is SNES Lawnmower Man with 3D game after 2d shooting part. Click 4:40... Its more like car engine or 2D pseudo 3D but effect is almost as minecraft hehe... Edited November 21, 2016 by Matej 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I know this but that's a 2D game and not 3D. You know: 2D is two axis (x,y) 3D is three axis (x,y,z) How would you manage that game with only changing x and y ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I guess you will find a lot on the internet and tutorials that actually wolfenstein like engines or not 3D or did you managed to look up/down? The map is 2D no height Informations etc... that's why I mentioned that the mindcraft like engines are true 3D with raycasting/marching a lot more than wolfenstejn... which only shoots rays in a 2D map etc... it's fooling and cheating a lot... same like the voxel flight engines but those have nothing in common with mindcraft voxels which are true voluminous pixels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 (edited) I guess you will find a lot on the internet and tutorials that actually wolfenstein like engines or not 3D or did you managed to look up/down? The map is 2D no height Informations etc... that's why I mentioned that the mindcraft like engines are true 3D with raycasting/marching a lot more than wolfenstejn... which only shoots rays in a 2D map etc... it's fooling and cheating a lot... same like the voxel flight engines but those have nothing in common with mindcraft voxels which are true voluminous pixels. What are you writing about? As I wrote above already : real 3D isn't possible on such slow computers. You'd have to "cheat and fool a lot" to get there. At the end is what you get in gameplay and look of the game. Which were the only relevant parts there. It's getting more and more ridiculous that no one is going to do such Stuff on the A8. The slow C64 has MOOD, Speccy has a working "Doom"... What the f... do people expect from the A8? On one hand , things have to run at 50fps (60fps) .... Project-M runs at 20 fps but never turned into a full playable "Wolf 3D" clone. Before that (on the other hand), in the Numen Demo, you see a "3D rendered" world, slow as hell. What stops people from doing a more tricky 3D engine with some less 3d calculations and some presentation tricks, and some less colours than Project-M, to have "enemies" added and some fluent gameplay? 40 Years A8? Unbelievable! Edited November 21, 2016 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I am just pointing to the original post with the 3D voxels 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popmilo Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 As others said - full 3d not possible in any decent frame rate. Some sort of fixed angle projection could work maybe. Like in Dungeon Master or other pseudo 3d games. Something like iso-3d is possible: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matej Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 (edited) @Popmilo: That isometric pseudo 3D Reminds me Cubic Castles game!!! https://www.cubiccastles.com/ @All: With Atari+Atari ethernet cartridge (client) and Raspberry PI (low watt server). We can have Atari voxel mmorpg! Or voxel metaverse or atari second life... On C64 they had habitat metaverse!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlLjB1Wa4L8 Edited November 22, 2016 by Matej Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormtrooper of Death Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Or this: a small playroom, that is totally pre-rendered in 3D. all pre-rendered 3D frames are then stored as char-sets. (use of lots of extra memory or fast harddrive space is needed on Atari). Then only little cpu-power is needed to move in the playroom. (its also cheating, but the result is good enough to have some fun in a 3D room). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthpopalooza Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 Or this: a small playroom, that is totally pre-rendered in 3D. all pre-rendered 3D frames are then stored as char-sets. (use of lots of extra memory or fast harddrive space is needed on Atari). Then only little cpu-power is needed to move in the playroom. (its also cheating, but the result is good enough to have some fun in a 3D room). Again, Antic 5 is your friend here ... either normal, or with the GTIA set into mode 10 to get 9 colors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matej Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 We need 64bit 6502 for 3D! http://www.6502.org/users/andre/65k/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 (edited) We need 64bit 6502 for 3D! http://www.6502.org/users/andre/65k/index.html All we need for that is a coder that is interested in porting such games to the A8. That's all. Problems seem to start where people think, the A8 is some PC or vice versa, don't start to create stuff, because the expectations were too low. It's just that only relevant parts have to be moved/turned ... whatever. For example: The ceiling/sky could be done by simple Antic Mode 2 with gr. 9 overlay. Move the sky content with char animations , to have the walking / turning impressions. Then place some lines in "80x50" resolution, to have them zoomable... and to form objects. Edited November 22, 2016 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matej Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 C64 construction kit: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matej Posted November 22, 2016 Author Share Posted November 22, 2016 DARK ZX spectrum - this is very nice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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