Retroblox

[Keatah]

Potentially I see:

 

roms -> sd card -> everdrive -> module -> main console = that's like 5 things you have to put together, plus the controllers and tv hookup. Not to mention populating the SD card..Lotta stuff to assemble. Lotta fail points.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Keatah

[Eltigro]

For what it's worth...

 

[Andromeda Stardust]

For what it's worth...

 

TL;DW: Verdict TBD. Wait for kickstarter for more info.

 

Honestly I'm glad to see Pat approaching this thing with a level head and not selling out the way RetroGamster81 or whatever his name was.

[Tusecsy]

TL;DW: Verdict TBD. Wait for kickstarter for more info.

 

Honestly I'm glad to see Pat approaching this thing with a level head and not selling out the way RetroGamster81 or whatever his name was.

 

 

to be fair to gamester81 i don't think he's selling out, I just think he's not that smart, and extremely gullible. i do feel bad for the people who watch him though and buy into the kickstarter because of him. you'd think he'd be a bit brighter after the CONeleon thing but I guess not.

[godslabrat]

 

 

to be fair to gamester81 i don't think he's selling out, I just think he's not that smart, and extremely gullible. i do feel bad for the people who watch him though and buy into the kickstarter because of him. you'd think he'd be a bit brighter after the CONeleon thing but I guess not.

He's literally making the exact same mistake on the exact same type of project. Less than a year later. If he's that gullible, we might have trouble convincing him that Clark Kent is Superman.

[philyso]

http://retroblox.com/forums/topic/so-software/#post-6271

 

I think HLE BIOS option exist for Playstation emulation (EPSXE had one afaik) but I have serious doubts about their claim when it comes to Sega CD emulation. Due to unique nature of Sega CD hardware (dual CPU system with BIOS parts running on the two sides) and how Sega CD software heavily relies on BIOS functions for many things, HLE BIOS for Sega CD would be a very hard task, hence why it has never been made or even attempted before.

 

Is there a video where they play Sega CD games btw?

 

On that one, in gamester81 video, we can see a Sega CD game booting with the official BIOS startup screen, which means that contrary to what they claim on their forum, they are using copyrighted BIOS file.

Edited February 20, 2017 by philyso

[elmer]

I found this interesting ...

 

http://retroblox.com/forums/topic/some-questions-from-a-very-interested-gamer/

 

2017-02-18 at 1:11 PM

X4N

 

...

2) You speak of anti piracy with carts, but what about Everdrives and backed up cds/dvds? Do you have a system in place for them? I would imagine there isnt much you can do against Everdrives. As for optical discs, can you replicate the protection that those systems provided?

...

 

 

2017-02-18 at 1:57 PM

RetroBlox

 

...

2) We cant stop people from using Everdrives since Hybrid Emulation will allow anything that can be used in a real console to be used on RetroBlox. However, you will not be able to install the games contained on the Everdrive to RetroBlox, it just plays now like it does on a real console.

...

 

I'm having trouble understanding how both of RetroBlox's statements can be true.

 

If the "Hybrid Emulation will allow anything that can be used in a real console to be used on RetroBlox", and they can't stop you running an image off of an Everdrive, then how can they stop you from installing the cart image on the console?

 

If they can detect that you're running an Everdrive and so choose not to allow you to install the cart image on the console ... then they can also detect the Everdrive and refuse to run the image in the first place.

 

 

I just can't see how they can have it both ways???

[godslabrat]

I found this interesting ...

 

http://retroblox.com/forums/topic/some-questions-from-a-very-interested-gamer/

 

 

 

I'm having trouble understanding how both of RetroBlox's statements can be true.

 

If the "Hybrid Emulation will allow anything that can be used in a real console to be used on RetroBlox", and they can't stop you running an image off of an Everdrive, then how can they stop you from installing the cart image on the console?

 

If they can detect that you're running an Everdrive and so choose not to allow you to install the cart image on the console ... then they can also detect the Everdrive and refuse to run the image in the first place.

 

 

I just can't see how they can have it both ways???

 

It's possible that this is like the NES Mini's "the USB port is for power only", where they claim something isn't possible just to save face when it actually happens.

 

It's also possible, and in this case I would argue more likely, that Retroblox is saying whatever sounds good, knowing they can walk it back anytime before they fully disclose their specs. And even after, depending on how slimy they want to play it.

[Keatah]

They can claim they don't support everdrives. But if it just so happens to work, then it just so happens to work.

 

If they really wanted to they could detect an everdrive. Something along the lines of a CRC or watching a scanline for part of the everdrive text display.

[keepdreamin]

yeah, stop people from inserting CD-R's that'll help sell your console.

 

and anyone who wants to stick everdrives in emulation machines deserves to have their money squandered.

[dj_convoy]

 

 

and anyone who wants to stick everdrives in emulation machines deserves to have their money squandered.

I don't get this attitude. My Retron, to name a name, lets me play games upscaled on my big screen in my living room, where it's convenient and encourages others to play. I can use it to play patches and translations, too. It would be useful to me if it worked with an Everdrive. It's not the end of the world for me, but it'd be nice.

 

Just 'cause YOU don't want it / like it doesn't mean someone else doesn't, you know?

[keepdreamin]

I don't get this attitude. My Retron, to name a name, lets me play games upscaled on my big screen in my living room, where it's convenient and encourages others to play. I can use it to play patches and translations, too. It would be useful to me if it worked with an Everdrive. It's not the end of the world for me, but it'd be nice.

 

Just 'cause YOU don't want it / like it doesn't mean someone else doesn't, you know?

 

Because the setup is asinine. If you want to run roms.. run roms. Using an everdrive with a Retron (if it was possible) would be like doing an oil change on your car, only you add the new oil to another car first, then drain it from that car and walk the drain pan over and add it to your car that needed the oil.

[Kismet]

I found this interesting ...

 

http://retroblox.com/forums/topic/some-questions-from-a-very-interested-gamer/

 

 

 

I'm having trouble understanding how both of RetroBlox's statements can be true.

 

If the "Hybrid Emulation will allow anything that can be used in a real console to be used on RetroBlox", and they can't stop you running an image off of an Everdrive, then how can they stop you from installing the cart image on the console?

 

If they can detect that you're running an Everdrive and so choose not to allow you to install the cart image on the console ... then they can also detect the Everdrive and refuse to run the image in the first place.

 

 

I just can't see how they can have it both ways???

 

I think this just means that the cartridge bus only emulates the minimum required to NOT identify a flash cart. When people use FPGA-based NES multi-carts the cart emulates some functionality of the cart, the address pins on the cartridge will only let it see the 64KB or whatever is mapped into the NES memory space. Hence it can't copy a game from a multi-cart because there is no way for the emulation device to bypass the cart-selection screen and select a cart directly as only one cart will ever be emulated. Likewise with any other system.

 

So it's not that they detect an Everdrive, but rather that the cartridge bus only ever shows the PRG and CHR to the device with a NES. That is a design mechanic often done using RAM on the flash cart, there is no way to address anything that is physically stored on the cart. Like in theory you could select the game on the everdrive, and then bring up the menu on the emulator and say "dump now" and it will make a half-assed attempt at dumping the game if the everdrive emulates the mapper correctly.

 

But in practice, "hybrid emulation" is not hybrid anything. It's simply yet another libretro thing, and the experience will not be any better than previous attempts like RetroFreak and Retron5

[Newsdee]

I'm with Kismet; I'm sure dumping a ROM from an Everdrive is probably more hassle than it's worth.

 

Also it shows their Hybrid Emulation might not be realtime access. For all we know they just detect the header or CRC and run the corresponding ROM. Which is what the Retro Freak does after dumping a cart.

[Tusecsy]

Ya I mean wtf cares about using an everdrive on an emulation box, completely defeats the purpose. Can't you hack those POS Retron toys and just run the roms directly? I have never looked into it but can almost guarantee you can.

 

The BlumpkinBox not being able to dump the rom from an everdrive is equally as pointless and irrelevant. And ya they can't do it because it would have to grab the entire everdrive and wouldn't know how to read individual roms, that part makes sense, even though everything about their FAQ reaks of misleading doublespeak BS.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Tusecsy

[keepdreamin]

Ya I mean wtf cares about using an everdrive on an emulation box, completely defeats the purpose. Can't you hack those POS Retron toys and just run the roms directly? I have never looked into it but can almost guarantee you can.

 

The BlumpkinBox not being able to dump the rom from an everdrive is equally as pointless and irrelevant. And ya they can't do it because it would have to grab the entire everdrive and wouldn't know how to read individual roms, that part makes sense, even though everything about their FAQ reaks of misleading doublespeak BS.

 

Let's see, just to run roms on gimped android emulators for a few consoles..

 

Retron 5: $140 + Everdrive N8 $120 + Mega Everdrive $160 + Super Everdrive $90 = $510

 

Raspberry Pi 3 canakit from amazon that can do those consoles AND more.. $75

 

I'll stand by my earlier statement, if you're clamoring to run everdrives on rom consoles..

[kevtris]

 

I think this just means that the cartridge bus only emulates the minimum required to NOT identify a flash cart. When people use FPGA-based NES multi-carts the cart emulates some functionality of the cart, the address pins on the cartridge will only let it see the 64KB or whatever is mapped into the NES memory space. Hence it can't copy a game from a multi-cart because there is no way for the emulation device to bypass the cart-selection screen and select a cart directly as only one cart will ever be emulated. Likewise with any other system.

 

So it's not that they detect an Everdrive, but rather that the cartridge bus only ever shows the PRG and CHR to the device with a NES. That is a design mechanic often done using RAM on the flash cart, there is no way to address anything that is physically stored on the cart. Like in theory you could select the game on the everdrive, and then bring up the menu on the emulator and say "dump now" and it will make a half-assed attempt at dumping the game if the everdrive emulates the mapper correctly.

 

But in practice, "hybrid emulation" is not hybrid anything. It's simply yet another libretro thing, and the experience will not be any better than previous attempts like RetroFreak and Retron5

Well, there's no way to just partially implement the NES cart bus. It's an all or nothing thing. I guess they could leave the write line and/or interrupt line off for the CPU, but if they did that it isn't going to run anything more modern than super mario bros. Write is required for anything with a mapper, and the interrupt line for many games that split the screen for a status bar (i.e Kirby's adventure or SMB3).

 

The real problem they will have with an everdrive is timing. If it's not absolutely perfect (and even if it is) that thing will fail. It's a super horrible problem. If the access to the cart drops for 1uS, then it will reset and crash your game. The clock comes in at 1.78MHz which is 560ns or so (602ns for PAL) so there's some margin but deviating even 10ns from the spec either way tends to make it unstable/crash. I am not holding out hope that this will run an everdrive.

 

Until I see proof that "hybrid emulation" works, I am going to assume this dumps carts and runs them just like a Retron. They might try to be a bit smarter than the Retron and "emulate" the game for say, a few hundred milliseonds NOT at full speed to see what kind of writes it does to the cart to figure out the mapper without having to rely on a straight CRC table like the Retron does. Even this can be tricky, though. They might have to have a CRC table and if it's not in the table do heuristics to figure out out.

 

I guess everything is speculation until more information is known.

[Keatah]

All these newfangled ways to play classic games. My head is spinning. All more complex than the games themselves. All different..

[Andromeda Stardust]

I found this interesting ...

 

http://retroblox.com/forums/topic/some-questions-from-a-very-interested-gamer/

 

 

 

I'm having trouble understanding how both of RetroBlox's statements can be true.

 

If the "Hybrid Emulation will allow anything that can be used in a real console to be used on RetroBlox", and they can't stop you running an image off of an Everdrive, then how can they stop you from installing the cart image on the console?

 

If they can detect that you're running an Everdrive and so choose not to allow you to install the cart image on the console ... then they can also detect the Everdrive and refuse to run the image in the first place.

 

 

I just can't see how they can have it both ways???

Meh. PowerPak in conjunction with AVS can play a game loaded into memory, then when submitting high scores to scoreboard, the AVS dumps and verifies the game to check if it is legit. On PowerPak menu, a short reset results in reloading the built in game, and a long reset results in loading the boot menu. Everdrive, I believe it is possible to change the behavior such that it resets to game and not to menu, allowing user to submit high scores for games he/she does not own to the scoreboard app on NintendoAge.

 

Whether or not it is possible to dump a game loaded into flash cart RAM will depend on the flash cart and specific way in which RetroBlox dumps game carts. It will be necessary for the game to be loaded and run first, then call up the RetroBlox menu in order to dump it. This may also require that the flash cart must be able to retain the game in RAM and not default to a menu upon being given a reset signal.

 

Assuming the "hybrid emulation" system works at all, the Retroblox needs to boot the flash cart, then the user select a ROM and back out of the game into the Retroblox menu without power cycling the cart or sending it a reset signal for systems which have reset option. If game can only be dumped upon initial boot and not after a game has been loaded, then dumping from flash cart will not work. If game can be dumped after a cart is booted and verified working, then dumping a flash cart will work.

 

And quite frankly, I don't see what the deal is. "Dumping" games off a flash cart would be a somewhat obtuse method for injecting ROMs into the Retroblox, and if a user seriously intends to dump backed up games from a flash cart for newly created backups, more power to them. But there are a million emulation boxes out there that cost way less than a flash cart, Raspberry Pi for instance. Might as well use one of those devices instead.

 

 

I'm with Kismet; I'm sure dumping a ROM from an Everdrive is probably more hassle than it's worth.

 

Also it shows their Hybrid Emulation might not be realtime access. For all we know they just detect the header or CRC and run the corresponding ROM. Which is what the Retro Freak does after dumping a cart.

I have a CopyNES enabled NES. Unfortunately, Everdrive is broken on CopyNES, but PowerPak works, and I am imagine plugging in the USB and selecting "Play cart" from the interface menu would emulate a short reset from the Power Pak's perspective, much as calling upon the AVS menu does. I'm about geeky enough to try this and see if it works. Dump an original game ROM with the CopyNES. Then load the dumped ROM on my PowerPak, and redump said ROM again. Compare the results in a hex editor and verify the ROM matches.

 

 

 

 

Retron 5: $140 + Everdrive N8 $120 + Mega Everdrive $160 + Super Everdrive $90 = $510

Well the SRT works:

 

And the Advance Retro Port also works with the Everdrive Advance too, so +1 GBA. Just produce a "system on a chip" that outputs HD natively and doesn't suck. Or one possible workaround is to produce a SOAC that outputs native pixel aspect digitally, then the ARM processes the signal and sends it to the GPU for lossless upscale?

 

Maybe Retroblox is planning some unforseen solution?

[philyso]

I found this interesting ...

 

http://retroblox.com/forums/topic/some-questions-from-a-very-interested-gamer/

 

 

 

I'm having trouble understanding how both of RetroBlox's statements can be true.

 

If the "Hybrid Emulation will allow anything that can be used in a real console to be used on RetroBlox", and they can't stop you running an image off of an Everdrive, then how can they stop you from installing the cart image on the console?

 

If they can detect that you're running an Everdrive and so choose not to allow you to install the cart image on the console ... then they can also detect the Everdrive and refuse to run the image in the first place.

 

 

I just can't see how they can have it both ways???

 

I think what they mean is that it won't be possible to dump the games that are on the Everdrive SD Card because likely, their dump process is aimed to run before even running emulation, which means the only thing accessible at this point would be the Everdrive OS ROM. Indeed, Everdrive always boot to OS ROM first and to either copy ROMs from SD to Flash Memory (or RAM for some Everdrive models) or run them directly (if ROM is already flashed), Everdrive OS program needs to be run first before that ROM can be accessible from the console (emulated or not). They likely simply won't allow dumping the cartridge content while emulation is running, that's all.

 

Then, assuming 'Hybrid Emulation' really works, nothing would indeed theoretically prevent the OS program that is running on emulated side to setup the Everdrive hardware in order to flash ROM from SD and run them. That's said, for reasons aforementioned by Kevtris (mainly getting precise read/write timings through GPIOs and simulating properly timed interrupt/clock signals inputs), I still think it's yet nothing more than an untested concept and they will sooner or later realize it's not as easy as they thought, if not impossible for some cartridge interfaces, to get it work.

Edited February 21, 2017 by philyso

[keepdreamin]

"Dumping" games off a flash cart would be a somewhat obtuse method for injecting ROMs into the Retroblox,

 

obtuse is too polite a word. It's definitely asinine. You'd be using a cheapo computer with the world's most expensive SD card adapter just to run roms.

[Andromeda Stardust]

 

obtuse is too polite a word. It's definitely asinine. You'd be using a cheapo computer with the world's most expensive SD card adapter just to run roms.

I merely offered proof that it can be done if the game is loaded prior to dumping. I have a suspicion that the CopyNES can dump loaded ROMs off a Powerpak, but haven't tested it. The AVS Scoreboard interface is capable of dumping a game ROM for verification before submitting scores, and this process works with flash carts. Assuming it is possible to back out of a game to the Retroblox system menu, and dump the game without disconnecting power to the cart (this feature could even be useful to verify the game cart is clean before dumping, as can also be done with CopyNES), then the PowerPak or Everdrive could be used for ROM injection.

 

This assumes the whole "hybrid" emulation is actually viable. I think they're cycle counters will start looking into it and quickly realize it just isn't feasible, and their bean counters will realize it isn't affordable to place an FPGA or custom SOAC in every module. At this point, the RetroBlox becomes nothing more than another dumper/emulator running stolen code, with a nice moneymaking scheme selling addons. It wouldn't even surprise me if the modular interface is dual USB plugs like the Retrofreak has.

 

That said, some people will buy it just for the CDROM, then get a couple add-ons. It may be worth the price for some just for that.

 

As for the Lythium, it's in similar territory, sans the CDROM drive and headaches for novice users who realise the unit is useless out of the box without downloading an update, because they can't have stuff preinstalled due to TOS. Oh, and more modules to buy.

 

Assuming the hybrid emulation fails, the RetroBlox may still be the better buy of the two. At least it isn't an outright scam like Mike Kennedy and posse.

 

I'm personally gonna wait for Kevtris to announce something. Oh wait, he already has...

[Newsdee]

Well the SRT works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lud4z0_NYFM

 

And the Advance Retro Port also works with the Everdrive Advance too, so +1 GBA. Just produce a "system on a chip" that outputs HD natively and doesn't suck. Or one possible workaround is to produce a SOAC that outputs native pixel aspect digitally, then the ARM processes the signal and sends it to the GPU for lossless upscale?

The SRT is not a software emulator but an ASIC / Famiclone kind of system, so it's closer to an FPGA machine. FPGAs are basically "make your own SoAC" kits, they can become something else everytime you boot it.

 

I don't think it would make sense to route the video through an ARM chip though. There are better and cheaper methods out there if all you need is to scale up an image into HDMI.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Newsdee

[elmer]

Assuming the "hybrid emulation" system works at all, the Retroblox needs to boot the flash cart, then the user select a ROM and back out of the game into the Retroblox menu without power cycling the cart or sending it a reset signal for systems which have reset option. If game can only be dumped upon initial boot and not after a game has been loaded, then dumping from flash cart will not work. If game can be dumped after a cart is booted and verified working, then dumping a flash cart will work.

I think what they mean is that it won't be possible to dump the games that are on the Everdrive SD Card because likely, their dump process is aimed to run before even running emulation, which means the only thing accessible at this point would be the Everdrive OS ROM.

Yep, good points guys ... all that they'd need to do to stop dumping on an Everdrive would be to hard-reset the cartridge port.

 

Silly me, I was thinking that they'd allow you to dump a cartridge at any time while playing, but I guess that doesn't make any sense.

 

Not that most of this makes much sense.

 

 

That's said, for reasons aforementioned by Kevtris (mainly getting precise read/write timings through GPIOs and simulating properly timed interrupt/clock signals inputs), I still think it's yet nothing more than an untested concept and they will sooner or later realize it's not as easy as they thought, if not impossible for some cartridge interfaces, to get it work.

Yep ... I'm going to want to see a video of this thing actually running a bunch of different physical carts, taken by some non-involved 3rd-party who can confirm that the cart images weren't pre-loaded, before I begin to believe RetroBlox's claims.

[Andromeda Stardust]

The SRT is not a software emulator but an ASIC / Famiclone kind of system, so it's closer to an FPGA machine. FPGAs are basically "make your own SoAC" kits, they can become something else everytime you boot it.

 

I don't think it would make sense to route the video through an ARM chip though. There are better and cheaper methods out there if all you need is to scale up an image into HDMI.

I know the difference between clone chips, emulation, and FPGA. What I was suggesting was the output of the system GPU be presented as native digital pixel format rather than composite, then digitally processed using a line tripler and frame buffer if necessary (if done properly, only adds maximum 16ms). The conversion to analog video then being upscaled to HD would be bypassed. The new Gamerztech HD clone uses a composite NOAC chip plus an off the shelf upscaler and it's awful.