GenetixJ Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Greetings, First, let me admit I reside often in an Ivory Tower (or I wish I do). I've watched the INTV groups come and go, games get released and skyrocket in value while at the same time new producers get into the market. New sets get released because the infrastructure is lower. While I love that smaller and 'Indy of the indy' people get involved, the amount of product created is increasing dramatically. Does anyone else see a similarity to the original crash? IP not being protected, anyone can produce a game, etc? DZ Jay might be able to relate to this, but when I was into collecting music one of the most important tools at my disposal was "the label". If I was on the fence about an album, but the label was very good with their choice of bands to back I would get it. If it was an unknown or disreputable label... well I would wait and buy it later. I write this to open the topic for discussion. Please contribute if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 My releases (IntellivisionRevolution) arent sales driven (but sales are important of course). So I don't see a looming crash headed for me. Can't speak for anyone else. I'll quit releasing games when one of the following things happens: 1. Die 2. Get Bored 3. Release all games on my wish list 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Dunno. But in the overall industry I'm seeing way too many titles being produced. Enough to hide any crash I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+BBWW Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I will let you know when I release another. i'm not profit driven, I don't expect to make money, I hope to break even not counting my labor. If I make a few bucks, It goes into the next project. Prices go up and down. If I had waited longer some games I could have gotten cheaper….that said, I don't think I hit close to the ceiling on any of them. I did a good bit of trading and trade plus cash to keep costs a bit below market for my collection. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-crew Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 As I mentioned this before, what in my view will happen is the fly byes solely in it for profit or greed.(releasing games or Farkles just for $$$$) Will disappear(because the community will catch on with their tactics) and like rev/bbww have said ones that are not solely sales or profit levels driven(profit and $$$ is good, exploiting a community solely for profit is not, in my opinion) and have a passion for the intellivision will be around for a long time.. As the past has shown.. Cheers 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 As far as I know, the Famicom did not have any lock out chip so most anyone could release games for it. A lot was good, a lot was WTF? (at least for westerners) but it had more than 10 years of commercial life. Thus I doubt a large selection is what kills the market, at least not on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr_me Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Carlsson is partly correct. In 1983 its not that people stopped buying games; it was that the stores stopped selling games. Yes there was a glut of product that filled retailers' inventory and that prevented new games, quality games getting to customers. That can never happen today. Software and music went to electronic file distribution a long time ago. I don't understand why so much time and energy is put into making boxes; and now even cartridges are unnecessary. But I understand some people enjoy making and having them. People mention the excitement of opening a box when they were a child. For me the excitement was when I turned the Intellivision on with a new game. I did the same thing with an emulator and games that I never had in the 1980s, now you can do it with a multi-cart. Unfortunately some homebrew games are only available on cartridge, sold out, and not everyone can play them. I guess people have to try and get every dollar to recover their investment in making boxes and cartridges. Doesn't LTO Flash do DRM? The music industry got rid of copy protection; they know some will pirate but more will buy. Having a pirated game is one thing and selling them is another. LockNchase 8k, for example, is a game that I've had for years and anyone can play today. That LnC replica box could of at least have original graphics on it. And those non-gatefold boxes are a pain in the ass. In 1983 when I got BumpNjump it was my only non-gatefold box. I hated that box, getting at the cartridge and instructions and overlays and putting them back was frustrating. The old Mattel LnC box is superior and cheaper to the new copy that some people are upset about. In the 1980s, I never would have thought to buy every Intellivision cartridge. I only wanted to have good games I liked to play in my collection. With music, if I liked a song I heard on the radio I might get it. Videogames might have been a little tougher to evaluate, but even before the internet there was lots of information. Screenshots and descriptions helped to some extent, there were magazine reviews, we rented games to evaluate them, talked to friends. We even returned games to the store we felt weren't good enough. I get a little confused when I see people lining up to buy copies of Hotel Bunny. So if some people stop buying games because their collection is incomplete that's their problem. It won't stop games like Hotel Bunny from getting programmed (and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from programming games like Hotel Bunny). Internet forums are great but they are in no way representative of the community. In any internet discussion group there are always a small percentage of people that dominate the posts. They are still a great tool to share information. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Dunno. But in the overall industry I'm seeing way too many titles being produced. Enough to hide any crash I think. People are doing it for the love of it. Unlike in '82 when everyone rushed in only to make a quick buck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) As far as I know, the Famicom did not have any lock out chip so most anyone could release games for it. A lot was good, a lot was WTF? (at least for westerners) but it had more than 10 years of commercial life. Thus I doubt a large selection is what kills the market, at least not on its own. I believe you are correct. . PC has no such lock out and has a very large software library, and the "huge" software library that allegedly killed the 2600 is tiny compared to other systems. I think the real problem was the videogame market was immature at the time, and retailers didn't have enough information to properly discriminate between the fly-by-nights and the major players- they thought they could sell anything videogame. And for awhile they could. Today we have indie-tier and major publisher. Stores with limited shelf space, know which titles they need to stock and which won't sell enough. We have digital markets where there is no physical inventory that can take chances on smaller indies. "Too many titles" will hurt some publishers and cause the to leave, but not take down the entire market. Edited February 22, 2017 by zzip 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Even look at C64 collectors. It's almost impossible to be completionists on that, contemporary format despite very few homebrews are released CIB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 One game I update/buy every coupla years comes shipped to me in a brown box with bubblewrap inside. It has just as much personality as any "big-time" commercial or homebrew box does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+JasonlikesINTV Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I don't necessarily see a crash from game flooding, but it is changing the scene. It's much more difficult to be a completist today that say 2011. Some completists will quit but most will adjust whether by increasing spending, buying less copies, or even by ending their completism. Nothing wrong with being picky and passing on a few titles here and there. As long as there are decent games being produced and there are still communities, I think we'll be fine. If anything causes a crash, I think it will be the loss of interested communities. Collectors and gamers come and go, but I fear that people transitioning out of the scene may eventually outpace potential newer fans, who are less incentivized by the Intellivision nostalgia factor. Some of our growth is due to opportunists looking to profit. That will always happen, but if a majority of new growth are flippers vs fans we can expect the flippers to jump ship when games don't reliably appreciate. Hopefully we can maintain enough fans to sustain the scene. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Look at game collecting like prison sentences. You have lifers and then short term sentences. People leaving and people coming. People dying. And lots of gay sex. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Tarzilla Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 One advantage of a larger number of releases is we can add some more categories to the GOTY: Worst Game Shortest Game Worst Graphics And the "Revolutionika Memorial Award" for Biggest Box Slut. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 One advantage of a larger number of releases is we can add some more categories to the GOTY: Worst Game Shortest Game Worst Graphics And the "Revolutionika Memorial Award" for Biggest Box Slut. That's what I call a win/win combination! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 One advantage of a larger number of releases is we can add some more categories to the GOTY: Worst Game Shortest Game Worst Graphics And the "Revolutionika Memorial Award" for Biggest Box Slut. I predict tears/"taking their ball home"/bitching/moaning from the whiners of the first 3 categories. As for the last category, is it fair for Rev to award the prize to himself perpetually? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I like big boxes and I can not lie You other brothers can't deny That when a person walks in with an big pretty box and a square thing in your face You get sprung, want to pull up paypal 'Cause you notice that box was stuffed Deep with stuff im swearing I'm hooked and I can't stop staring Oh baby, I want to get wit'cha And take your picture My homeboys tried to warn me But with that box you got makes me so horny. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Tarzilla Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I predict tears/"taking their ball home"/bitching/moaning from the whiners of the first 3 categories. As for the last category, is it fair for Rev to award the prize to himself perpetually? Whiners...or winners? I think it would be an ongoing battle between Rev and Cmart for the last category Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Whiners...or winners? There are no typos in my reply I think it would be an ongoing battle between Rev and Cmart for the last category Hmmmmmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+BBWW Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Electronic distribution is soulless. I think every release at some point should have a ROM release but from an old guy who grew up with vinyl L.P.'s. I love reading and looking at the covers. The same for the boxes. From the reaction I got releasing a cart only…I think that is the minimum that a majority of what Buyers want. This could change but after all this is RETRO gaming. The PlayCable was not a success. LOL Any one can still release a ROM only, it is the programmers choice. DRM can be an issue as well. Don't get me started. And any ROM release can be put to cart…or so I hear. I HATE digital distribution of music. I no longer do it, except on my website where I can control everything. Even with that I hate it. It's funny I prefer digital movies. I can't tell you how much music I ripped from CD's only to lose with weird issues and "iTunes" failures. I have everything backed up…but if I don't go through the hassle of "finding the files" when I notice them gone…they remain gone until the next time…and the next. I hated Digital Distribution. Long life the CIB. Cart Only is my next favorite. I do have a Cuttle Cart and an Ultimate Intellivision as well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byte Knight Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 This is a hobbyist market and there will always be someone creating games for the challenge and fun. Nobody's in this to make big bucks. Also, a big part of the original crash was that people moved on from consoles to home computers for gaming. That's obviously not an issue now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+cmart604 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I like big boxes and I can not lie You other brothers can't deny That when a person walks in with an big pretty box and a square thing in your face You get sprung, want to pull up paypal 'Cause you notice that box was stuffed Deep with stuff im swearing I'm hooked and I can't stop staring Oh baby, I want to get wit'cha And take your picture My homeboys tried to warn me But with that box you got makes me so horny. Lol! You're a musical genius! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+cmart604 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Whiners...or winners? I think it would be an ongoing battle between Rev and Cmart for the last category That's probably a fair assessment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+the1hatman Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 To address mr_me and the part of his post about boxes: I agree that gatefold boxes are far superior. I simply do not have the ability to make them as I am limited by the size of stock I can print to. 12x18 is the max I can do. Even then, I cannot print them as one piece as the cart retention won't fit so I have to do that as a separate piece and put it together by hand after. It's like I said to the Completionists in the Lock 'N' Chase thread, not everything can be done as CIB by everyone. Some of us are limited by what we have access to or by our varying skillsets. So we make and release what we can. I also agree about the poor performance of the INTV size/style of box. The cart retention was poor and the manual and overlays always fell out of the bottom. Since I am limited to that size, I came up with a manual pocket that holds the instructions and overlays in place and keeps them from getting beat up by moving around or by the cart. You can see the inside of the LNC box in that thread for an example. It's nothing great but the best I can do. I also use extra card stock strips to reinforce the sides to reduce the chance of crushing that plagues that style in the original releases. My hope is someone comes along that can do gatefolds and makes one for every later release and 3rd party game that never had one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Tarzilla Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 That's what I call a win/win combination! Box this up, bee-atch [Click to Animate] Featuring unlockable "Kage Match Konflaguration" level! Coming soon... 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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