carlsson Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 Surely when POKEY is configured as two 16-bit channels, its frequency resolution is comparable to the SID? The problem with being detuned happens when you're using two or more 8-bit channels, as the resolution is not quite enough. Careful selection of music key and frequency table might overcome some of this but it takes a bit of math to figure out which "phase" has the least calculated frequency errors as well as the ones the human ear can overlook or not. Over the past 20 years I've spent some time trying to do this with the VIC-20 that only has 7 bit frequency resolution, though arranged in three voices one octave apart. The SN76489 chip has a 10-bit resolution but is usually clocked so high that it can't hit the bass notes, while the AY chip with 12-bit resolution is relatively sufficient both in the low and high range. So yes, if you want to freely compose music with three note polyphony in any key and are more interested in that it sounds in tune than the timbre, you'd probably swap the POKEY for a SID any day. If you prefer the character of the sound and can overlook that it sometimes sounds like a badly tuned middle school orchestra, you might pay those $1000 to keep your POKEY chip (which does more than sound, but so does the SID to be honest). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) Okay, the SID has flaws. But POKEY does not? I mean, what doesn't have flaws? Put the two together and have a chip with lesser flaws Here some examples of POKEY's sound variations. While each SID revision sounds always the same... Siddy... NESsy... 4 channel "music" ... full of modulation.... some with 3 channels, some with 4 channels... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOmbZ8FXZk0 (real recording) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcDBomy-Pd8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_n0O9ClIlY some 16 bit modulations... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sIyANu35co https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZZUkIQuMh4 .... Edited June 27, 2017 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujidude Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 That's the POINT. Well, I don't think those were the best tunes, but it shows "always the same" sounding, but those tunes have been done with ease. Doing the same on the A8, even "the god of SID" Rob Hubbard struggled hard using POKEY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 If someone asked me about "best SIDs" for example... But the quality changes from SID revision to SID revision.... At the end it sounds mostly in tune, but pressed through a sausage skin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 27, 2017 Share Posted June 27, 2017 The real interesting questions were: How would a real POKEY version of the SID tune sound? What would happen, if POKEY was supported with all it's features and without thinking around "100" corners by software... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Hmmm... no reactions to the "Electric City" tune? Or has the time been too short for this post ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) Well I think it's alright, but.... I think it would lend itself quite well to the pokey actually - it's mostly short notes, and you can tie 2 channels together to have more stable tuning for the longer lead sounds. I keep meaning to give it a try Edited June 28, 2017 by sack-c0s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) Well I think it's alright, but.... I think it would lend itself quite well to the pokey actually - it's mostly short notes, and you can tie 2 channels together to have more stable tuning for the longer lead sounds. I keep meaning to give it a try No complaint for the tune itself. It's just the clamped sound of SID that ruines relevant parts of the tune. Hmm.... as GOAT Tracker isn't really sticky to SID. I wonder if it was possible to create a POKEY library there... just a finetuning tool and the POKEY emulation. POKEY could do sound variations ... playing a tune for over 10 hours.... and then switch from 64kHz to 15kHz, 1.79MHz... mixing them additionally... With some optimized tune, such message from the intro "above", could have been better based Edited June 28, 2017 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 The SID stuff seems to be heavily tied in to the code, so it's not as nicely separated as RMT seems to be. I've got a C++ class (that I wrote to export to another SID editor) which can extract all the data from a goattracker file, so maybe I can repack the pattern data in a RMT file and build the instruments again. A quick google shows that there's a dump of the RMT format layout here on the forum someplace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Boy we're off topic. Isn't anyone going to implement the world's best copy protection in BASIC? I originally thought this thread was going to be about modifying Sid Meier's Pirates! game, which never came out on the A8. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Boy we're off topic. Isn't anyone going to implement the world's best copy protection in BASIC? I originally thought this thread was going to be about modifying Sid Meier's Pirates! game, which never came out on the A8. 2 Options 1. Make a program that boring, no one wants it, so it won't get pirated 2. Make a program that is that great, people adore it, and like to spend money for it. The 2nd point is actually the most spreading way today. Make it freeware, people copy it themselves and, if they like it, they send some money back... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 ^^^^ This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujidude Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Boy we're off topic. Isn't anyone going to implement the world's best copy protection in BASIC? I originally thought this thread was going to be about modifying Sid Meier's Pirates! game, which never came out on the A8. :lol: Actually, almost anything else people get to chatting about is more interesting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 The SID stuff seems to be heavily tied in to the code, so it's not as nicely separated as RMT seems to be. I've got a C++ class (that I wrote to export to another SID editor) which can extract all the data from a goattracker file, so maybe I can repack the pattern data in a RMT file and build the instruments again. A quick google shows that there's a dump of the RMT format layout here on the forum someplace Do you think it is too complex, to just convert GOAT Tracker to RMT? Unclear notations could be converted to a "separate" instrument, with some remark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Surely when POKEY is configured as two 16-bit channels, its frequency resolution is comparable to the SID? Actually, 16 bit POKEY is more precise than the SID notes. The problem with being detuned happens when you're using two or more 8-bit channels, as the resolution is not quite enough. Careful selection of music key and frequency table might overcome some of this but it takes a bit of math to figure out which "phase" has the least calculated frequency errors as well as the ones the human ear can overlook or not. Depending on the tune, you can get up to 3 channels with 16 bit resolution, using POKEY, as the combination of channels clocks the base frequency "in tune" , you just have to find that. It allows also 4 channels at 16 bit precision. But, at the end ... the taste in music counts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted June 28, 2017 Share Posted June 28, 2017 Cool! That is beyond the capacities I've read up on with the POKEY, but perhaps most sources just quote the most common configurations and you're demonstrating a bit more complex variants. So that is what you're trying to convey, to find a generic music player and ideally also an editor capable of doing four channel music of that kind? Is it more CPU intensive than it would be otherwise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fujidude Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 Actually, 16 bit POKEY is more precise than the SID notes. That's cool to know that, but again, it doesn't make me forget which chip sounds better to my ears despite that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 That's cool to know that, but again, it doesn't make me forget which chip sounds better to my ears despite that.That's the argue, nothing can change it... for sure. It's still funny to see how people claim "SID" can do real guitar sounds. My hold against it is the fact that I never liked E-Guitar sounds, but can listen to many SIDs Some of them sound really impressive... musicwise ... It's also the FX. If you compare the dull FX in many games (Silkworm for example ) you know, where the problems of SID start. That's also a cause for having most C64 games playing a tune inside a game and no FX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 Is it more CPU intensive than it would be otherwise? In most cases it takes not more CPU. Sometimes a timing compensation would be needed. Mostly at the start of a played note. The creation needs more time, as the registers have to be set sometimes "off tune" to get a real note. For music creation this would make a frequency calculator (indicator) necessary. Even the best musicians struggle with POKEY music by the problem of "repeating" and equalizing the content. One day it sounds perfect, the next day "there is something wrong" AS POKEY is a RAW chip, the unexpected is everywhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 Jesus wept, how is this thread still going, I liked the start for the laugh and sarcasm etc but wooooow, has it wandered and lastly, those Best Sid tunes were nothing like it, the video maker pushing the tune because of the game and not how it sounds. Outrun is laughable.. Oh darn it, I've joined in the off topic myself...(no stunner there) If you want an uncrackable program then the only way is not to write anything, that can't be cracked but everything elsle will be eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 Cool! That is beyond the capacities I've read up on with the POKEY, but perhaps most sources just quote the most common configurations and you're demonstrating a bit more complex variants. So that is what you're trying to convey, to find a generic music player and ideally also an editor capable of doing four channel music of that kind? Is it more CPU intensive than it would be otherwise? It seems like everything about the Atari is layered. It was designed by guys who were used to getting complex results from simple but clever circuits. On most systems, the features are spelled out and if they don't meet your needs you hit the wall pretty quickly. On the Atari there's always something else you can try. You may decide something is impossible and a year later someone else is doing it by cramming weird values into everything. Pokey is still mysterious. I'm sure it's designers didn't know what it could produce since it's based on a combination of complex sequencing circuits and doesn't take the wavetable style approach that SID does. Of course, SID is textbook easy to use and good Pokey sounds must usually be found empirically. One of the great masters of Pokey was Bill Williams. Listen to the sounds in Alley Cat and Necromancer. There's no book that tells you how do that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted June 29, 2017 Share Posted June 29, 2017 (edited) One of the great masters of Pokey was Bill Williams. Listen to the sounds in Alley Cat and Necromancer. There's no book that tells you how do that. Rick Dangerous (fitting) programmed sound is such a thing I also wonder if people realize what they hear in this tune... https://youtu.be/XzkwF4Giuiw?t=6m20s Driller really is a candidate that I miss on the Atari, because it can run at a playable speed. And a fitting Soundtrack is there .... 4 channels were used (everytime) , 64kHz plus a 16 bit channel, 1vbi Speed, the low one plays the basses, the high one plays the needed fx. Some of the sounds were based on 16 bit plus filter... creating the LFO modulated bass line. At the end playing a long soundtrack , dark, with musical parts and unexpected fx... Edited June 29, 2017 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Yeah. Alley Cat "samples" are ace and once a while I always go into the code and peek around how the hell he did those sounds. Anybody ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sack-c0s Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Do you think it is too complex, to just convert GOAT Tracker to RMT? Unclear notations could be converted to a "separate" instrument, with some remark. I think I can get notation, instrument assignments and arpeggios out of the tables. Everything else is either painful to map across (such as slides), or SID-specific so it doesn't matter (like ADSR and waveforms). That said, ADSR timings are constant hardcoded values in silicon so I could just generate volume envelopes that match. If I'm honest I probably wouldn't though, because for me the one annoyance of the SID is the ADSR envelope. I'd have been happier with a pokey/YM-style per-channel volume control that you handled yourself in software because I find that more flexible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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