Atari 7800 and Vanilla NES: Similar machines with opposite Strengths?

[JaguarVision]

One thing about release dates, Atari was already prototyping and exploring options for the "Panther" in 88. Reaching actual running applications in 1990. It seems Atari Corp was just stalling for time.

 

Ironically assuming some of the games in the Jaguars first couple years involved a lot of moved over panther games Atari should have released the Panther in 90-91 and then saved the Jaguar for 95 or so.

[zzip]

One thing about release dates, Atari was already prototyping and exploring options for the "Panther" in 88. Reaching actual running applications in 1990. It seems Atari Corp was just stalling for time.

And there's one of the problems. The Tramiel team built the ST in an amazingly short amount of time, but every promised hardware project after that seemed to get delayed and slow coming.

[JaguarVision]

From what I understand they threw the business toward the ST. Even gave games away for free that pissed if some devs.

 

It's interesting they cut all additional revenues and put it all on the Jaguar when they knew they didn't have enough money to develop contracts with developers, mass market, and mass produce.

 

As for the other machines that were delayed it seems Atari panicked when slightly new developments in tech occurred and scrapped projects that would have held up.

 

Assuming half the first two years of Jaguar software involved panther move-in it would have been hype if released in 1990.

[Noah98]

Maybe, If you take a look at the Atari games on the NES, like Joust and namco's Ms. Pacman. I think the 7800 faired better. Could Robotron even be done well on the NES? And at first during Nintendo's black box era 7800 might have pulled it off, but they really needed that pokey chip in all there games and some amazing arcade ports. The sad thing is Atari had the games to do it. Gauntlet, Rolling Thunder, Super Sprint. Once Super Mario Bros. and Castlevania landed, it was over.

 

 

This isn't really a fair comparison. Comparing a bad port on one system to a good port on another doesn't tell much about the system, just the skill of the programmers and the commitment of the company. Joust is a bad port on the nes, and a good one on the Atari 7800. The nes could have easily handled a much better version. Also, comparing the Namco version of Ms. Pacman on the nes to the Atari 7800 is unfair considering the nes has the superior Tengen version. Many people actually prefer the Tengen version of Ms. Pac Man to the Atari 7800 version. Although, personal preference could sway that evaluation either way.

 

Both consoles have strengths and weaknesses, good ports and bad ports. For example:

 

Games that are better on the nes: Galaga, Double Dragon, Karateka, Kung Fu Master

 

Games that could go either way (personal preference): Xevious, Ikari Warriors, Commando, Choplifter, Tower Toppler, Winter Games

 

Games that are better on the 7800: Rampage, Dig Dug, Ballblazer, Xenophobe

 

Games that have awful sound on the 7800, but good sound on the nes (gameplay and graphics are subjective here): Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr., Mario Brothers

 

As far as the Robotron debate goes, the nes does have the homebrew Spook-O-Tron and a conversion of Smash TV, so it could do a port of Robotron. It would probably still be better on 7800, but who knows considering the mapper chips and the skill of the programmers.

 

Just my two cents. I don't think the 7800 could have competed on arcade ports alone, because it didn't have a clear advantage over the nes when it comes to arcade ports. It just had some better ones, some about the same, and some worse. You are right though, as soon as Super Mario Brothers, Zelda, Castlevania, etc. landed, it was all over. I think there are a lot of amazing homebrews for the 7800 right now, and it shows how great arcade ports could have been. However, I haven't seen anything that compares with some of the nes heavy hitters like Mario 3, Kirby's Dreamland, Shatterhand, Megaman 2, Contra, Double Dragon II, Ninja Gaiden, Metroid, Duck Tales, etc. Until we see games like that on the 7800, it's hard to conceive a scenario where it could have competed with the nes, especially without the Pokey chip in every game.

 

It doesn't make much sense to compare vanilla nes to the 7800 because the nes was meant to be expandable through cartridge, just like the 7800 was meant to have decent sound through cartridge. An nes game with an MMC3 mapper chip can look amazing. An Atari 7800 game with a Pokey chip can sound amazing. We can only look at what was possible on the 7800 (because of the short shelf life and lack of support) and what was actual on the nes throughout it's lifespan.

 

Maybe a better question would be, could the 7800 have done any of the advanced mapper nes games? Was it possible to expand 7800 cartridges in similar fashion, or was sound the only enhancement possible? Bentley Bear is the one homebrew that really shows off what the Atari 7800 can do. I'm not sure if 7800 games can look much better than that.

 

Anyway, fun to debate and ponder to be sure!

Edited November 2, 2017 by Noah98

[JaguarVision]

Hmm considering a good chunk of NES best sellers were arcade style games I believe a 7800 with higher production, more retail presence, and more advertising from Jack would have held up to the NES with arcade ports and unique titles sprinkled in.

 

Atari had access to some top hits and had games like ball Blazer and the F18 hornet to wow players with spectacle 3D graphics.

[mbd30]

The 7800 could have been a contender if the controllers didn't suck and had gotten major third party support somehow. It wasn't happening. The console's biggest draw was its backwards compatibility with the 2600.

[JaguarVision]

I think all they really had to do is bring the PC/Real computer developers over. In fact they would have changed the industry that way as we saw when Xbox came out.

[Bill Loguidice]

I think all they really had to do is bring the PC/Real computer developers over. In fact they would have changed the industry that way as we saw when Xbox came out.

The NES, and to a lesser degree, the SMS, had computer game ports. I don't think it would have made much of a difference for the 7800 other than increasing the library size, which is always important. The hot games were the ones coming out of Japan at the time that were expressly made with consoles in mind.

[empsolo]

I think all they really had to do is bring the PC/Real computer developers over. In fact they would have changed the industry that way as we saw when Xbox came out.

Except Atari did that with a big-ish marketing push with the XEGS. They did commercials where they had the CEOs of some of the big computer software firms extolling the virtues of the XEGS and highlighting big computer titles for the system. It did absolutely nothing here in the US and Atari Corp ended up axing the system a year or two later.

 

 

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[JaguarVision]

Eh biggish? The Xegs was handled with a bit more effort by the tramiels but not by much than the 7800.

 

The big issue with the Xegs is the newer computer games and the just released computer games (that could run on the system0 were not there, and it relied mainly on "BC" and wasn't advertised much in NA.

 

The Xegs ran till 91-92 where did the axe year or two later came from> The thing sold out all it's produced units at launch.

 

If Atari had actually got PC devs into the Xegs library, or rather, the Atari 7800 library, to pad out it's lack of third-party support, could have caused a big ruckus. but form what I understand devs were pissed at Atari for their St from giving away games for free/low price to just other relationship problems.

[CatPix]

From what I read from French developers, relationship with Atari (tho,most likely Atari-France/Europe) were terrible.

 

For example dev tools and instruction given with the Jaguar (what I remember is form the later years) were incomplete, mediocre, and they even contained bugs. Bugs so obvious that some developers found them day one.

Several French developers were eager to develop for the Falcon 040, but Atari only handed units to the larger developers... Larger developers that were switching to IBM-PC and consoles and already gave up on the Atari computers.

Some developers remember sending patched developing kits for the Jaguar, including a file system for the Jaguar CD, and Atari reaction wa to scold them and told them that they were here to code games, not development tools.

Of course, as I said, it could be a local issue.

[pacman000]

Ouch. That's really bad.

 

From what I've read 3DO's development system was rather nice. It came with a library of images, videos, and sounds developers could use in their games royalty free. I knew the Jaguar's documentation had some errors, but I never knew that Atari Corp. was so pig headed they rejected fixes. That's both pathetic and sad.

[CatPix]

As I said, it was probably Atari France, not Atari Corp. But being that their biggest market for computers was in Europe, that was a bad move to do.

And yeah, the 3DO development kit was apparently more friendly and well done. Tho, the 3DO was using a software layer rather than giving the developers full access to the hardware, and Atari was the opposite with the Jaguar requiring to code in assembleur

[JaguarVision]

As I said, it was probably Atari France, not Atari Corp. But being that their biggest market for computers was in Europe, that was a bad move to do.

And yeah, the 3DO development kit was apparently more friendly and well done. Tho, the 3DO was using a software layer rather than giving the developers full access to the hardware, and Atari was the opposite with the Jaguar requiring to code in assembleur

Atari was likely pissed a $700 console was outselling them 5:1

[Osgeld]

I wanted a 3D0 so bad when it first hit the market, if that price tag was not soooooo steep it could have been a real contender, the jag just felt like all sega's mistakes happening over again, launch with a 3 button controller, add-on's direct out of the gate, and the only thing impressive was AvP, it didnt warrant a second look in my book

[tschak909]

I tried purchasing a Jag development kit from Atari. They refused to do so, as I did not have a CV with a history of game development.

 

I said quite simply, "Really? Are people beating down your door to get development kits? ... they hung up."

 

But quite frankly, they were rude to me, even before I said such a statement.

 

-Thom