Keatah Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Considering what "innovation" means these days maybe we don't want any. 2 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3787878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDTAY Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Well, I've had about ten possibilities shot down so far. Only about eight thousand to go before I solve the Ataribox mystery by process of elimination. Only problem is, I don't see Bill putting up with me for that long. Darnit, Atari, just spill the beans already and end both the suffering of me and those around me. 1 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3787880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+x=usr(1536) Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) Let's take a step back a moment. I was referring to it not being a streaming device when I said that unless something changed, this is not meant to stream games. That was obviously in reference to guesses that this would be a game streaming box/service (which is actually something of a challenge/cost prohibitive). By the very nature of this being a PC-based device, of course it should be able to run the usual suspects like Netflix and what-not. Whether it will, who knows? I realise that we're playing what-if here, but the mention of Netflix and similar streaming services brings the following scenario to mind: Atari announces the Ataribox. It slices, dices, mashes, dashes, and... Has Netflix. And Amazon Video. And Pandora. And <insert other video / audio streaming services here>. When I can look at my desk and see four devices (laptop, TV, phone, and tablet) in just that one location that all support each of those services, none of those services are a value-add for the Ataribox. Granted, those are my circumstances and others' may (and almost certainly will) vary. But in an era where even a $149 TV can do all of these things, that's really not enough to sustain a standalone device in the marketplace. Software is what sells hardware. The Ataribox needs software, and it needs to be software that can't be found elsewhere. It also needs launch titles that compel purchase of the hardware in order to drive software (physical or downloadable) sales. Angry Birds on one more platform isn't going to cut it. As I have said elsewhere, I'm really hoping that this isn't a repeat of past mistakes. I'd like to see this succeed. But to succeed in the modern marketplace, the Ataribox is going to need to have one hell of an ace up its sleeve to even make a splash let alone a wave. Edited June 19, 2017 by x=usr(1536) 2 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3787895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 https://www.forbes.com/sites/mitchwallace/2017/06/19/why-ataris-new-console-could-be-just-what-the-gaming-industry-needs/ Now this is an Ataribox opinion piece that I like. He says gamers could use more options. Hopefully when Ataribox outsells the iPhone, all the other old players will get back into the hardware game too. Just imagine a shiny new Intellivisionbox to go with your Game Developer Barbie. Awwww yeah. I am beginning to wonder if these "writers" creating these click bait articles aren't paid shills. The more they hype this device up, the more underwhelmed everyone will be when it finally drops. The more hype being generated, the more potential for a let-down.. YES, this. +1 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3787932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 So 1) Bushnell Atari 2) Warner Atari 3) Tramiel Atari 4) Atari Games 5) JTS Atari 6) Hasbro Atari 7) Infogrames Atari Ataribox Atari Did I miss any? AtariAge where the real Atari fans hang out! Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3787935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 They actually paired up with a company from Japan, and the new platform is a sexbot. This business strategy that might actually work to rebuild the brand. Sex sells! But then people will get the wrong impression and think the guys hanging out at AtariAge are a bunch of old perverts... Considering what "innovation" means these days maybe we don't want any. Yeah, like the good, old fashioned, reliable DPDT toggle switch slowing getting replaced by Smart Apps and the Internet of Things. If it ain't broke, don't fix it... 1 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3787939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 15) Chris (The Fun is Back) Cardillo Atari bought for $1 16) Nolan Bushnell buys back Atari with the resin in his Bong. Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3787947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 This business strategy that might actually work to rebuild the brand. Sex sells! Atari_Doll.jpg But then people will get the wrong impression and think the guys hanging out at AtariAge are a bunch of old perverts... Yeah, like the good, old fashioned, reliable DPDT toggle switch slowing getting replaced by Smart Apps and the Internet of Things. If it ain't broke, don't fix it... There is your Atari 'Box'. 2 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3787949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) Software is what sells hardware. The Ataribox needs software, and it needs to be software that can't be found elsewhere. It also needs launch titles that compel purchase of the hardware in order to drive software (physical or downloadable) sales. Angry Birds on one more platform isn't going to cut it. As I have said elsewhere, I'm really hoping that this isn't a repeat of past mistakes. I'd like to see this succeed. But to succeed in the modern marketplace, the Ataribox is going to need to have one hell of an ace up its sleeve to even make a splash let alone a wave. Well yes it does. And conversely, hardware presents the software, makes it work.. The classic chicken or the egg problem. Though common sense says the egg (or its functional equivalent came first). Anyhow - I believe most important "big-name" developers are too risk-averse to make custom software for this. And if they do, it will be a port or minimal-effort remake. As with all new devices, we ask, "What will this do for me? What problem will it solve? What interesting form of entertainment will it bring?" Now as classic gamers from the 1970's and 1980's who have many new and old devices already ask yourself, "where will it fit in and is there a need?" Remember all your consoles, computers, tvs, streaming boxes, emulators, NAS devices.. Still want Ataribox? Edited June 19, 2017 by Keatah Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3787959 Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 So I was just thinking... we know who the CEO is. But does Atari have any engineers (software/hardware) working for them that anyone knows about? They've just been a software publisher for so many years now, I'm not even sure if they do their own development. If we could find out who currently works for them, it'd give us a bigger hint at what they are planning. I still think it'd be great if they finally released the VR headset we were promised 20 years ago... who knows, maybe they finally paid their debt to Virtuality... haha! Netflix was mentioned. It's funny that SteamOS is the only gaming platform out there that doesn't really have it's own netflix/amazon/hbonow plugin. Yet it's definitely the closest to being a 'real computer' vs the xbone and ps4. But I'd agree that who cares? It's not like there aren't an abundance of smartTVs, Bluray players, etc that can't already play the streaming channels. All that crap costs licensing anyhow, unless they plan on having some sort of Android compatibility layer. Hell, this literally could be a platform for emulating all the old things that they still have rights to. Yar's Revenge HD/4k would be cool though... 1 Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3787969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 So I was just thinking... we know who the CEO is. But does Atari have any engineers (software/hardware) working for them that anyone knows about? They've just been a software publisher for so many years now, I'm not even sure if they do their own development. If we could find out who currently works for them, it'd give us a bigger hint at what they are planning. I still think it'd be great if they finally released the VR headset we were promised 20 years ago... who knows, maybe they finally paid their debt to Virtuality... haha! Netflix was mentioned. It's funny that SteamOS is the only gaming platform out there that doesn't really have it's own netflix/amazon/hbonow plugin. Yet it's definitely the closest to being a 'real computer' vs the xbone and ps4. But I'd agree that who cares? It's not like there aren't an abundance of smartTVs, Bluray players, etc that can't already play the streaming channels. All that crap costs licensing anyhow, unless they plan on having some sort of Android compatibility layer. Hell, this literally could be a platform for emulating all the old things that they still have rights to. Yar's Revenge HD/4k would be cool though... What, Netflix isn't supported on Linux? All you need is a good up to date web browser... https://www.engadget.com/2017/03/22/netflix-firefox-linux/ Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3787985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDTAY Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) Oh man, I have more speculation. Someone really should stage an intervention for me. But anyway, in another thread, someone very early on mentioned a possible partnership between Atari and FlashZero, a company that develops artificial intelligence. Someone later guessed in this thread that the Ataribox might use artificial intelligence and joked that Ataribox would play with itself. That was a couple pages before Bill said some guesses have been pretty close. I wonder, does Ataribox have a service that provides learning AI opponents for multiplayer games? Edited June 19, 2017 by JDTAY Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3787986 Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 What, Netflix isn't supported on Linux? All you need is a good up to date web browser... Ha, not exactly what I meant.. I meant within SteamOS's big picture interface. Yeah, I watch Netflix all the time on Linux. Still can't figure out why hbonow refuses to play (it used to work fine, I figure I have something funky cached somewhere, meh.). But yeah, Netflix/Amazon Video both work fine under Firefox. Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3787989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+x=usr(1536) Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) Netflix was mentioned. It's funny that SteamOS is the only gaming platform out there that doesn't really have it's own netflix/amazon/hbonow plugin. Yet it's definitely the closest to being a 'real computer' vs the xbone and ps4. But I'd agree that who cares? It's not like there aren't an abundance of smartTVs, Bluray players, etc that can't already play the streaming channels. All that crap costs licensing anyhow, unless they plan on having some sort of Android compatibility layer. From what I recall regarding Android and licensing: the userspace components are provided under a different FOSS license (Apache 2.0) to certain other components (mostly to do with the Linux-based parts of the core OS) which are GPLv2. There are also licenses that cover both commercial and non-commercial contributions to the codebase and ownership thereof. Android's only a free platform to develop for depending on the type of development taking place. Hell, this literally could be a platform for emulating all the old things that they still have rights to. Yar's Revenge HD/4k would be cool though... With modern broadband, delivery of most older titles could be literally instantaneous (or near enough as doesn't matter) into an emulation VM, or other architecture perhaps along pluggable lines a la retroarch. Stick a Netflix-alike or similar UI onto it, license game IP from multiple holders, and basically do exactly what you're proposing for back-catalogue titles. Ship with, say, the 2600 back catalogue thrown in for free, then pay for pluggable upgrades to allow running other emulated architectures. That would be unique, but given how things like this have worked out so far on existing platforms I'm dubious as to whether or not it would be enough to sustain a dedicated hardware platform. Thinking about it, though, UI could be the killer app (no pun intended) that makes this acceptable to the mass market. Hell, it worked for the iPhone and iPod - they weren't the first to do what they did, but they got the look and feel right, and that's where their success was really derived from. That said, I believe that the emulation station idea was somewhat mooted earlier in either this thread or one of the others. Not that that couldn't have changed, though. Edited June 19, 2017 by x=usr(1536) Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3787994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Streaming is a terrible idea for gaming. The lag is horrendous. Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3788001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 From what I recall regarding Android and licensing: the userspace components are provided under a different FOSS license (Apache 2.0) to certain other components (mostly to do with the Linux-based parts of the core OS) which are GPLv2. There are also licenses that cover both commercial and non-commercial contributions to the codebase and ownership thereof. Android's only a free platform to develop for depending on the type of development taking place. With modern broadband, delivery of most older titles could be literally instantaneous (or near enough as doesn't matter) into an emulation VM, or other architecture perhaps along pluggable lines a la retroarch. Stick a Netflix-alike or similar UI onto it, license game IP from multiple holders, and basically do exactly what you're proposing for back-catalogue titles. Ship with, say, the 2600 back catalogue thrown in for free, then pay for pluggable upgrades to allow running other emulated architectures. That would be unique, but given how things like this have worked out so far on existing platforms I'm dubious as to whether or not it would be enough to sustain a dedicated hardware platform. Thinking about it, though, UI could be the killer app (no pun intended) that makes this acceptable to the mass market. Hell, it worked for the iPhone and iPod - they weren't the first to do what they did, but they got the look and feel right, and that's where their success was really derived from. That said, I believe that the emulation station idea was somewhat mooted earlier in either this thread or one of the others. Not that that couldn't have changed, though. For licensing, I was talking more about how much Netflix pays. libhybris is the compatibility layer for Android apps I was talking about, and it's specifically Apache Licensed; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybris_(software) I'd agree with the streaming being near instant. 2600 in the cloud... My thinking of Yar's Revenge would be a 'reboot' since we all love those, right? Though a Yar's Revenge 2020 would be awesome... Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3788006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
leech Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Streaming is a terrible idea for gaming. The lag is horrendous. Ha, I have a Steam Link in my living room (stupidly they only included a 100Mb NIC on it) and I agree, it's pretty terrible. Oddly the control lag is pretty good on most games, but I do have the random time when it decides to make the audio off sync by about 10 seconds. Any sort of 'streaming' service would have to do a LOT of caching. Granted when you're talking older 8-bit on down stuff, you could cache the entire library in like a GB of space... Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3788007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerry32 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 the video didn't say too much but i'm very interested Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3788011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Streaming is a terrible idea for gaming. The lag is horrendous. I had a good experiences with various game streaming services, but yeah, when there's network congestion, it can be frustrating. It probably is the future, but not until we get much better Internet connections. Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3788021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 https://www.forbes.com/sites/mitchwallace/2017/06/19/why-ataris-new-console-could-be-just-what-the-gaming-industry-needs/ Now this is an Ataribox opinion piece that I like. He says gamers could use more options. Hopefully when Ataribox outsells the iPhone, all the other old players will get back into the hardware game too. Just imagine a shiny new Intellivisionbox to go with your Game Developer Barbie. Awwww yeah. Ridiculous. Ataribox will never ever outsell iPhone. And even more ridiculous - gamers don't need any more options! We don't even have time to fully enjoy what we have today. Sounds like fullashit paid clickbait style article. I'm not gonna read it. Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3788035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 So I was just thinking... we know who the CEO is. But does Atari have any engineers (software/hardware) working for them that anyone knows about? They've just been a software publisher for so many years now, I'm not even sure if they do their own development. If we could find out who currently works for them, it'd give us a bigger hint at what they are planning. I still think it'd be great if they finally released the VR headset we were promised 20 years ago... who knows, maybe they finally paid their debt to Virtuality... haha! We don't know if they have any engineers. Wouldn't be hard to find out however. And if they do it isn't gonna be like the pot filled hallways of the original 1970's Atari. Therefore creativity will be low. Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3788040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) Streaming is a terrible idea for gaming. The lag is horrendous. I had a good experiences with various game streaming services, but yeah, when there's network congestion, it can be frustrating. It probably is the future, but not until we get much better Internet connections. I don't care for streaming for any sort of action gaming. I prefer all my stuff be computed and rendered locally for best performance. Even with improved connections you're up against laws of physics and all that. Just the traffic routing takes time. And that will always be a part of the internet. Streaming for movies and music, that's ok. Streaming for digital delivery, that can be ok too. Edited June 20, 2017 by Keatah Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3788046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Thinking about it, though, UI could be the killer app (no pun intended) that makes this acceptable to the mass market. Hell, it worked for the iPhone and iPod - they weren't the first to do what they did, but they got the look and feel right, and that's where their success was really derived from. Quoted for all-time's sake! Apple got the hardware and software to play very nicely together. I remember getting the iPod right after the tech bubble exploded. It was the first portable music player whose infrastructure worked well, shown common sense, and didn't piss me off. Windows Media Player was such a tedious nightmare by comparison! Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3788060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) I'd agree with the streaming being near instant. 2600 in the cloud... My thinking of Yar's Revenge would be a 'reboot' since we all love those, right? Though a Yar's Revenge 2020 would be awesome... Kinda funny.. Streaming 4K bytes of "Game Program" in this day and age. Even funnier is that the entire VCS library wouldn't fill the cache on a modern microprocessor, let alone the buffers in the hard drive of a bargain bin PC. Nobody likes likes uber-modern remakes of the classic Atari games. The few that have been made, like Star Raiders, bombed. They dumbed it down with pop-up text boxes and cartoon bubbles. The gameplay dynamics which made the original Atari 400/800 version from 1979 so famous must have been lost in a different galaxy. I haven't heard one iota about the Battlezone remake from Activision in like 15-years. So.. yeh, no re-imaginings, no reboots, no remakes, no retro styling! Edited June 20, 2017 by Keatah Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3788084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andromeda Stardust Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 I had a good experiences with various game streaming services, but yeah, when there's network congestion, it can be frustrating. It probably is the future, but not until we get much better Internet connections. Latency is generally around 79ms on our ATT UVERSE broadband, and that is to geographically close servers. That is enough to make most games unplayable IMO, especially if it is located further away. Online games like Mario Kart work fairly well because of predictive AI, though occasionally a red shell misses if I'm following too closely behind the opponent. It doesn't matter even if everyone online had Gigabit fiber running to their houses, we would still have high latency based solely on the geographic path the signal has to travel (which rarely resembles line of sight) and the propagation delay of light-speed communication. So for instance a server in Los Angelos California, under best conditions, would have 2451 miles to travel to New York, or 13ms one way with the signal traveling in a straight line at light speed, and that is the way the plane flies. Upon return, the signal would have an additional 13ms delay for total 26ms. Real world fiber or copper signals travel slightly slower than the speed of light and the signal path is anything but a straight line, bouncing from server to server before arriving at the destination. Individual packets may travel through different networks and get reconnected at the destination. So the slowest packet will bottleneck the transmission. The less buffering, the more likely lost or dropped packets that do not reach the destination in time. Then the servers switching billions of packets that have to queue in before they can be transmitted and sent on their way. Latency is literally everywhere. So latency in the order of ~70ms is probably best case and not likely to improve much as broadband gets faster, In practice the propagation delay between controller input and onscreen movement is going to be longer than a simple ping to the server, considering all the bottlenecks, CPU, and everything else involved with the server processing the controller signals from thousands of gamers and translating this to streamable video codec, all in realtime. TL;DR: Internet latency and propigation delay is far too long to allow the streaming of game content from a distant online server to be practical, much less an enjoyable experience. The obvious workaround is to have the content stored and executed locally on the device. Link to comment https://forums.atariage.com/topic/266480-new-atari-console-that-ataribox/page/13/#findComment-3788121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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