Could the Jag Do Decent Ports of NeoGeo and CPS-2

[Zerosquare]

It's fine to admit you were mistaken and you got confused

Wut?

That's a valid summary for basically any thread JagChris is involved in. Edited December 9, 2017 by Zerosquare

[Lost Dragon]

@Jagchris:I appreciate your very passionate about the Jaguar and the whole area of what could of been achieved on it, from a technical level had things worked out very differently for it..

 

Which is in itself great.

 

As an owner at the time..i too would of loved to of seen the hardware used a lot more wisely by commercial coders at the time.

 

It's when you jump headlong into pure speculation things tend to go south real quick i find..

 

We never saw a written from the ground up version of Doom for the Jaguar, so we have no conclusive proof to what degrees Carmack could improve the lighting, frame rate and resolution over the version we saw.

 

Even Carmack himself was really just speculating what he would of hoped to of achieved.

 

That doesn't make the version we did see a quick and dirty port.

 

You got very carried away with the Voxel talk..citing games on PC and Jaguar that used them.

 

When i countered that with sources explaining to a layman like myself none of these were true Voxel engines..you try and convince me you meant height maps all along and you assumed everyone of course knew you meant these..

 

Sorry..but for myself it never read that way.

 

Seems bizzare this thread is about Jaguar's ability to handle 2D games feature on Capcom and SNK coin-op hardware..and yet it descended into Jaguar vs Falcon, 3D games and why we never saw Quake on it...

Edited December 9, 2017 by Lost Dragon

[JagChris]

LD... come in... Do you read me... you're breaking up..

[Lynxpro]

So much talk about Doom and Quake and yet I rather would've played Duke Nukem 3D on the Jag instead. Not to mention Ninja Golf 2000 and Midnight Mutants 2000.

[Zerosquare]

Seems bizzare this thread is about Jaguar's ability to handle 2D games feature on Capcom and SNK coin-op hardware..and yet it descended into Jaguar vs Falcon, 3D games and why we never saw Quake on it...

It's only strange if you think all those "Jaguar vs..." and "Atari should've..." and "What if..." topics are for serious discussion.

 

Spoiler: they're not. They're playgrounds for people with very little or no actual knowledge, who like to play make-believe games and think they're CEOs, engineers, developers, producers, etc.

 

Which explains why they always degenerate in the same way, and why I support madman's (semi-serious) suggestion to create a dedicated subforum for that stuff.

Actually it doesn't even need a subforum ; you could fuse all those topics into a giant one, and nothing valuable would be lost.

[JagChris]

You guys should really ignore these threads then if they are so terrible for you guys.

 

CJ is the one who first brought up Quake so go jump his case.

 

Someone brought up jag vs falcon DSP. And since some of us aren't engineers we have to rely on what other engineers have wrote.

 

And considering what one very skilled engineer wrote about working on the Falcon's DSP

 

For this to be efficient, you really need a RISC device with a multiply-accumulate and fast shifting capability. Or at the very least, a very fast multiplier and careful coding. Unfortunately the Falcon's DSP is terrible at shifting and does present some problems of its own here

And comparing that with the words of the Jags design engineers:

 

--The graphics processor corresponds to the accepted notion of a RISC Processor (Reduced Instruction Set Computer). This means that: most instructions execute in one tick all computational instructions involve registers memory transfers are performed by load/store instructions instructions are of a simple fixed format, with few addressing modes ...wealth of registers, and local high-speed memory ...features to give high computational powers, including: highly pipe-lined architecture one instruction per tick peak throughput internal program and data RAM register score-boarding sixty-four thirty-two bit registers ALU includes barrel shifter and parallel multiplier systolic matrix multiplication fast hardware divide unit high-speed interrupt response, including video object interrupts close coupling with the Blitter--

 

**The DSP is part of the Jerry chip in Jaguar, and is a variant of the GPU within Tom. It uses a very similar instruction set and programming model... The DSP performs two roles within Jaguar, its primary...

It contains several optimisations for sound processing when compared to the GPU, in particular higher precision multiply / accumulate operations, circular buffer management, audio wave tables in local ROM, additional local fast RAM, and audio output hardware within its internal address space. As many sound generation techniques will not require anything like the full power of the DSP, it may also be used as an additional graphics processor.**

 

Based on the words of these engineer's it sounds like the Falcon's DSP would have trouble running with the Jag's DSP even if they were on a level playing field concerning memory and bus access.

[+CyranoJ]

You guys should really ignore these threads then if they are so terrible for you guys.

 

CJ is the one who first brought up Quake so go jump his case.

 

 

"Oh, no! They caught me out talking uninformed nonsense (again!) F**k! Quick! Deflect! Deflect!"

[Zerosquare]

Yeah, I'm sure the Falcon programmers who have released actual software that uses the DSP to do audio effects, sound synthesis and MPEG 1 Layer 2/3 decoding, in realtime, are a bunch of idiots. Don't they know the Falcon DSP is a piece of crap?

 

 

"Captain, we can't deflect their shots! The ionic backpedaling shields are stalled!"

 

"Quick! Divert all the power to the random technical text copypasters!"

Edited December 11, 2017 by Zerosquare

[JagChris]

No one said it was a piece of crap.

 

And never said anywhere that it couldn't do those things.

[Zerosquare]

You basically said that the Falcon DSP was worse than the Jaguar one, based on quotations you don't understand, while ignoring the fact that the Falcon has actual software doing things that have never been done on the Jaguar.

 

You'd better fix those ionic backpedaling shields -- you're gonna use them soon

[VladR]

You basically said that the Falcon DSP was worse than the Jaguar one, based on quotations you don't understand

You totally misrepresent situation here. If anything, JagChris is always taking a stance that jag's DSP more powerful than falcon.

 

I've been arguing with JagChris last few weeks that if jag didn't have GPU, Falcon would be computationally much faster than jag, due to 68030 vs 68000, higher clocks on both motorola and DSP.

 

But that was before I found out in this thread that Falcon has only (WTF!) 8-bit port to transfer the data. So, while it'll crunch through computations faster than jag (sans bitshift), it's all going to basically evaporate due to the weakest link in the chain. And while the bandwidth might be enough for audio, 8-bit is not enough for 60-fps flatshaded graphics.

 

If anything, I WAS wrong, not JagChris!

[Zerosquare]

You basically said that the Falcon DSP was worse than the Jaguar one

You totally misrepresent situation here. If anything, JagChris is always taking a stance that jag's DSP more powerful than falcon.

So saying "A is worse than B" is totally misrepresenting "B is better than A"?

You have to forgive me, I'm having troubles with the axioms of fumes logic.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Zerosquare

[+CyranoJ]

I've been arguing with JagChris last few weeks

 

Pay per view Special Olympics event, streaming live.

[JagChris]

Wow

[+CyranoJ]

Wow

 

It's OK Chris, someone will put it on youtube so you can both accurately calculate how it went.

[Punisher5.0]