NES Top Loader get! Upgrade? Kevtris?

[Osgeld]

 

I agree with the bold part above or at least the first part. The tips are still around they use the same tips as these https://www.ebay.com/itm/ECG-JT-103-NTE-45-WATT-TIP-REPLACEMENT-TIP-FOR-J-045-DS/201429545302?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 but I agree 100 percent the tips don't last long.

 

EDIT:

Fixed the underlined part above for you.

 

I used to file them down until the hole got too big or went out the side lol

[SignGuy81]

 

I used to file them down until the hole got too big or went out the side lol

 

I still do that to make the tip flat when they get bad instead of throwing them away and I use those for when I need a wider tip. It would be nice to find a good replacement tip for these that last, as it actually works very well while the tips are good.

[icemanxp300]

You removed it in a minute or two... with a $330+ tool. If this was meant to show us how easily and cheaply it could be done, then LOL!

 

 

No my comment was made in regards to this statement.

 

Even with a desoldering gun it's not a couple of minutes - thats for sure. But that is the hardest part / 95% of the install.

If these where socketed, most people wouldn't hesitate to do it themselves.

 

I do find it funny you have done you say 30 of these kits and choose to not to buy equipment that is best for the job. I know for a fact using bulb suckers and such is a high risk of popping traces and damaging chips. If I was forking out $125 for a kit to be installed on a $100 nes which was going to cost me $100+ in labor I would prefer the person use the appropriate tools for the job.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I really like that about the Hi-Def NES.

 

Thanks for confirming. I think the audio levels of the flash carts really needs to be addressed if possible.

 

I'm modding the NES for my brother in my video to use the correct levels for real carts. He already has Castlevania 3, Gimmick, Madara and Esper Dream 2. And Lagrange isn't too expensive. If I ever get a flash cart, I will avoid playing expansion audio games with it.

 

This thread suggests a 100k resistor and a 1uF capacitor and I thought I'd start there:

http://www.famicomworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=1860.0

Audio output on cart side goes to one end of a 10k audio taper pot. Ground the other end, and put the sweeper pole from the pot to the audio input. Keep the three leads as close as possible to prevent noise or buzzing. You can also add filter caps to the input and output of the pot to remove any DC bias. I have a big red knob on my NES exclusively for expansion audio and ot goes from silent to omg the expansion sound overpowers the internal sound. My audio taper pot sounds best cranked to 2/3 volume and playing my custom nes repro (inl pcb with ay soind chip) of mr gimmick the soundtrack is phenominal. But please don't limit yourself to a single inline resistor that can't be adjusted.

[Tanooki]

edit: forgot to mention. The hi def is going to be back in stock in a week or so. I ran out last year and couldn't get more made because I was deep in the super nt project, and couldn't spare the time to program/test them and get them produced. I received more boards a few weeks ago and programmed/tested a bunch so it's ready to go again. Hopefully I won't run out again next time and can order before that happens depending on what paid work/projects I have going.

 

If you're being trolled sorry to hear that. I thank you for that edit. I want to order that full kit but I'm guessing it is through game-tech and not yourself? I've got an offer to have the work done at a very reasonable rate which I really appreciate so I'd like to take a swing at it as soon as it's possible.

 

Just as I want to get this project going I just self inflicted something on myself from a freebie (see my other post from this evening) It's mostly there, just need to figure out an audio problem and find an appropriate screen for it too.

[DJ Clae]

Audio output on cart side goes to one end of a 10k audio taper pot. Ground the other end, and put the sweeper pole from the pot to the audio input. Keep the three leads as close as possible to prevent noise or buzzing. You can also add filter caps to the input and output of the pot to remove any DC bias. I have a big red knob on my NES exclusively for expansion audio and ot goes from silent to omg the expansion sound overpowers the internal sound. My audio taper pot sounds best cranked to 2/3 volume and playing my custom nes repro (inl pcb with ay soind chip) of mr gimmick the soundtrack is phenominal. But please don't limit yourself to a single inline resistor that can't be adjusted.

That's a solution people have done, but my whole point is it shouldn't be necessary.

 

Since I'm trying to make this NES operate like stock, and a real Famicom doesn't have a knob, I will not be adding one. My brother doesn't own a flash cart, nor would he be happy having to adjust it to get the correct audio level.

[mobiusstriptech]

I did not read this whole thing but I did see my name mentioned. I definitely do these installs. I charge $85 and replace the caps for free if you include them. With shipping in the continental US its $100.

 

I cut the slots as tight as I can get them, everything is socketed, you don't have to get the interposers presoldered but if you want to you can. I have plenty of pictures of installs I have done on these. All my equipment is Hakko and I do use a FR300 to remove the chips cleanly.

 

What makes the chip removal difficult for most is the ground plane and the heatsoak. It's worse on the front loaders than on the top loaders. Especially the 4 ground pins on the PPU that are next to each other. I just did one of these last week actually for a member on NA.

[kevtris]

 

I don't have a vendetta against you I just think these prices are absurd.

 

When you sell something to play 30 year old games for more than a brand new console cost that just shouts to me overpriced. However it is only my opinion. You obviously have people appreciate what you do, I'm just not one of them. Before I spend this kind of money I would keep playing on a CRT.

You're comparing something made in batches of 500 by a private individual vs. something made in 1 million or more quantities by a multinational organization which huge buying power. Unfortunately I am paying 5-10x more for parts and assembly than a sony or nintendo would and that is reflected in the price. I didn't think people would be so interested in the hi def, but I am glad they are and thank them for it.

 

You could say the same about certain NES carts that sell for $1000-$10K or more. They can be played on a flash cart, but people like collecting and will pay top dollar for the uber rare.

[icemanxp300]

You could say the same about certain NES carts that sell for $1000-$10K or more. They can be played on a flash cart, but people like collecting and will pay top dollar for the uber rare.

 

I do. Trust me it is nothing against you. Honestly I didn't even know you were the same person that did both this mod and the nt. I'm not paying $1000 for game just as I am not paying $1000 for a phone or $400 to play nes games. I personally view playing retro games on newer TV's inferior to CRT overall. I'm not trolling you, your products just don't appeal to me is all.

 

What would be more appealing to me is a new TV w/the capabilities to output all older systems perfectly and have light gun support. Spending $100's modding multiple consoles so they can partially work as intended on newer TV's is not my cup of tea.

[CZroe]

 

I do. Trust me it is nothing against you. Honestly I didn't even know you were the same person that did both this mod and the nt. I'm not paying $1000 for game just as I am not paying $1000 for a phone or $400 to play nes games. I personally view playing retro games on newer TV's inferior to CRT overall. I'm not trolling you, your products just don't appeal to me is all.

If only that were “all.” Instead you’re on some vendetta to insult everyone who doesn’t have the same “personal view” as you. Your view isn’t very “personal” when you are trying to force it on everyone. If you were actually trying to convince us then you would be telling us why it’s true and wouldn’t be calling it your “view.” Guess it changes moment to moment because you’ve been behaving that way too.

 

What would be more appealing to me is a new TV w/the capabilities to output all older systems perfectly and have light gun support. Spending $100's modding multiple consoles so they can partially work as intended on newer TV's is not my cup of tea.

What is this word-salad? You prefer an alternative that doesn’t exist? That’s... interesting.

 

 

No my comment was made in regards to this statement.

I know. That’s what we call “moving the goal post” when your argument shifts around like that.

 

I do find it funny you have done you say 30 of these kits and choose to not to buy equipment that is best for the job. I know for a fact using bulb suckers and such is a high risk of popping traces and damaging chips. If I was forking out $125 for a kit to be installed on a $100 nes which was going to cost me $100+ in labor I would prefer the person use the appropriate tools for the job.

I find it funny that you’re looking for ways to attack my professionalism and credibility by posturing over having presumably better/more appropriate tools. FYI, I have been saving for a Hakko FR300 for the work I do inside arcade machines but I will continue using my $150 desktop desoldering station with the frustratingly weak pump for Hi-Def NES installs. Why? Because *gasp* it is the more appropriate tool! How? Because I can set the temperature as needed. To imply that it’s inappropriate when it’s made for exactly this kind of work is laughable. I use the same station for installing UltraHDMI and it has served me well. I recently switched to genuine Hakko tips and it continues serving me well.

 

Oops! I don’t have a several thousand dollar PACE rework station in my home like I used to have at work. Guess I don’t know what I’m doing then. *rolleyes*

 

Actually, I have a question for you: How does 30 Hi-Def NES installs justify a $330 desoldering gun when I already have a more suitable one? Here’s another: If I had a Hakko FR303, what’s to stop someone with a several thousand dollar workstation from pulling the same crap? Are you suggesting that I be shamed out of the business either way?

 

Last year I had the Hakko FR303 in hand and was walking to the register with it at Fry’s Electronics when I came to my senses and said “Not yet.” Why? Because I couldn’t justify it yet. I already had a suitable tool, there were other important tools I still needed, it wasn’t useful for UltraHDMI (which is what paid the bills), and Hi-Def NES kits were out of stock for the foreseeable future. I finished up my last few with my Aoyue 701A++ and haven’t regretted my decision.

 

Seriously, dude. What are you trying to pull here? HDMI mods aren’t for you and you think they’re overpriced. We got it. Sorry we don’t care more about how you feel. Are you done stepping on everyone’s toes to tell us? Love how you put your foot in your mouth after figuring out that Kevtris engineered the NT Mini and the Hi-Def NES. FYI: Even the NESRGB (Ooh! Ohh! CRT!) and AVS likely owe their existence to Kevtris since he documented everything they are based on long ago.

 

FYI, I’m a fan of CRTs too. These three are right in front of me right now:

The left is an HS510. The right is an HS410. Too bad my XBR910 can’t be in the shot. I’m also bummed that Hi-Def NES and UltraHDMI don’t work on them even though they accept 720p signals. Well, Hi-Def NES does work in 480p but UltraHDMI doesn’t. Guess that HDMI signal analyzer that Kevtris and MarshalH used can’t guarantee 100% compatibility... even though it cost a pretty penny (speaking of expensive professional tools...).

 

Hopefully we’re done insulting each other. I honestly feel that your attack was a uncalled for. A low-blow like that is something you should be ashamed of, but there’s no reason why we can’t drop it and be civil. If you choose to continue senselessly digging for insults at the expense of your dignity then I have no choice but to continue defending myself. So far, your posturing doesn’t seem to be having the effect you intended, so I suggest that you bury the hatchet regardless.

Edited January 30, 2018 by CZroe

[SignGuy81]

 

Actually, I have a question for you: How does 30 Hi-Def NES installs justify a $330 desoldering gun when I already have a more suitable one? Here’s another: If I had a Hakko FR303, what’s to stop someone with a several thousand dollar workstation from pulling the same crap? Are you suggesting that I be shamed out of the business either way?

 

 

 

 

 

I use a crappy $150 desoldering station for the job and have installed about 30 kits. Those bulb-type desoldering irons need a new tip after nearly every job of this type and that’s a problem since Radio Shack isn’t around anymore. It’s also 45w and prone to cooking chips and burning off pads/traces. If someone is doing professional installs with that then their labor probably is worth hundreds!

 

 

 

 

So I guess the pot is calling the kettle black? I don't damage anything with a bulb desoldering iron but I guess it is because I know how to use one.

[CZroe]

 

 

 

 

 

So I guess the pot is calling the kettle black? I don't damage anything with a bulb desoldering iron but I guess it is because I know how to use one.

Excuse me? You don’t seem to be using that phrase correctly. If I were saying that he should not use a bulb desoldering iron or a Hakko FR300 in professional modwork in some misguided attempt to shame him, THEN “pot calling the kettle black” might apply. Fortunately, I don’t see any place where I said that.

 

His argument was that the price people were paying for labor was too high considering cost, difficulty, and time. I specifically pointed out that his primary tool was not cheap and another does not make it quick and effortless. That it also requires skill and “know how” to avoid damaging anything only furthers my argument. I implied that skill with the tool, such as yours, only further increases the value of the labor. Furthermore, I argued that the price is ultimately set by what people are willing to pay (not strictly our skills or tools). If it were truly “too high” and people continued to pay it then more installers would move into the market and the service would be available for less. Simple as that.

 

No need to posture about how good you are with it. That was never the point. Even Jason of GameTechUS sometimes lifts traces on NES RGB and Hi-Def NES installs with his Hakko 808. He even has an example of it right in his installation guide. I used the bulb desoldering iron on my personal Hi-Def NES from the very first DIY batch and I didn’t burn any pads or lift any traces either, so I was never claiming that it was totally inappropriate.

 

Are we done measuring ePeens? ...because I’d like you two to pull up your pants now.

Edited January 30, 2018 by CZroe

[SignGuy81]

Excuse me? You don’t seem to be using that phrase correctly. If I were saying that he should not use a bulb desoldering iron or a Hakko FR300 in professional modwork in some misguided attempt to shame him, THEN “pot calling the kettle black” might apply. Fortunately, I don’t see any place where I said that.

 

His argument was that the price people were paying for labor was too high considering cost, difficulty, and time. I specifically pointed out that his primary tool was not cheap and another does not make it quick and effortless. That it also requires skill and “know how” to avoid damaging anything only furthers my argument. Furthermore, I argued that the price is set by what people are willing to pay. If it were truly “too high” and people continued to pay it then more installers would move into the market and the service would be available for less.

 

No need to posture about how good you are with it. That was never the point. Even Jason of GameTechUS sometimes lifts traces on NES RGB and Hi-Def NES installs with his Hakko 808. He even has an example of it right in his installation guide.

 

Are we done measuring ePeens? ...because I’d like you two to pull up your pants now.

 

 

Excuse me? I used that phrase in the exact manner it should be used. You were upset because he said he had a $330+ iron and you only had $150 and that the one you have is perfect for the job, and he shouldn't dis it basically because if you bought his then someone with a higher value one could then dis it as well. Well, that is exactly what you were doing about the bulb type. Well I will tell you now the same about the bulb type you said about your $150 desoldering iron, and that the bulb type is perfect for the job, provided you know how to use one.

[CZroe]

 

 

Excuse me? I used that phrase in the exact manner it should be used. You were upset because he said he had a $330+ iron and you only had $150 and that the one you have is perfect for the job, and he shouldn't dis it basically because if you bought his then someone with a higher value one could then dis it as well. Well, that is exactly what you were doing about the bulb type. Well I will tell you now the same about the bulb type you said about your $150 desoldering iron, and that the bulb type is perfect for the job, provided you know how to use one.

LOL! Your reading comprehension needs work.

 

I used the bulb desoldering iron on my personal Hi-Def NES from the very first DIY batch (July 3rd 2016 preorder) and I didn’t burn any pads or lift any traces either. Obviously I was never claiming that it was totally inappropriate. It’s riskier and more difficult and takes more skill. He’s downplaying that because it runs counter to his argument. I’m spotlighting it.

 

I said that the tool was not as quick and easy as he implied. I never said a professional should not use one. I said that if we are paying based on skill and effort then a professional using one successfully deserves more money. Go read it again if you don’t believe me. Don’t say I didn’t set the superiority tone: I even called my own station “crappy.”

Edited January 30, 2018 by CZroe

[icemanxp300]

His argument was that the price people were paying for labor was too high

 

Annnnndddd folks this is half the problem. READING Comprehension.

 

 

 

How much do you pay someone for a couple minutes of work?

 

This statement was made soley in regard to removing the PPU and CPU chips NOT the entire install. KEEP Reading!

 

 

 

However this install is a bit more than just swapping two 40 pin chips.

 

SEE. Now this is the ONLY thing I was harping on over price.

 

 

 

What's more mind boggling to me is paying someone $125 for a pcb and kit that probably only cost about $5.

 

Ya ya his time to design and put it together. I know its worth a billion $$.

 

The kit NOT the install. I never said in this thread what anybody charges for labor was a high price.

[CZroe]

 

Annnnndddd folks this is half the problem. READING Comprehension.

 

 

 

This statement was made soley in regard to removing the PPU and CPU chips NOT the entire install. KEEP Reading!

 

 

 

SEE. Now this is the ONLY thing I was harping on over price.

 

 

 

The kit NOT the install. I never said in this thread what anybody charges for labor was a high price.

So, I guess I imagined all this back and forth you were having prior to me weighing in where you repeatedly insisted that the hardest part was quick and easy. Funny, because I quoted the very things I must have imagined.

 

Oh. You DID discuss those things? Great! Glad I wasn’t imagining things. That leaves you to explain how installation ease/difficulty is relevant to the price of the kit. Taking what the market is willing to pay for an installed kit and carving that up between installation and the price of the kit, easy installation only justifies a larger piece of that pie for the cost of the kit. Huh. It’s like you’re arguing against yourself!

 

Until Kevin and Jason are sitting on a pile of unsold kits, I’d say that the kit is UNDER priced. Simple economics, bro.

[SignGuy81]

LOL! Your reading comprehension needs work.

 

I used the bulb desoldering iron on my personal Hi-Def NES from the very first DIY batch (July 3rd 2016 preorder) and I didn’t burn any pads or lift any traces either. Obviously I was never claiming that it was totally inappropriate. It’s riskier and more difficult and takes more skill. He’s downplaying that because it runs counter to his argument. I’m spotlighting it.

 

I said that the tool was not as quick and easy as he implied. I never said a professional should not use one. I said that if we are paying based on skill and effort then a professional using one successfully deserves more money. Go read it again if you don’t believe me. Don’t say I didn’t set the superiority tone: I even called my own station “crappy.”

 

 

I'm the one that said that about the bulb type in response to someone originally, not you made it seem like doing it with any desoldering iron was the hardest thing in the world and no matter who does it they will damage traces/pads.

[CZroe]

 

 

I'm the one that said that about the bulb type in response to someone originally, not you made it seem like doing it with any desoldering iron was the hardest thing in the world and no matter who does it they will damage traces/pads.

Not at all. He’s being cautioned against telling everyone that it’s faster, easier, and cheaper to DIY than it really is and setting expectations such that people may overestimate their abilities. This can lead to expensive mistakes.

 

I think that mostly anyone who wonders whether or not they should DIY should evaluate that carefully. Anyone who has never done anything like this should probably shy away from it or practice first to develop reasonable expectations. It isn’t going to be fast and easy without a huge expense and it isn’t going to be cheap without practice, skill, time, and effort.

Edited January 31, 2018 by CZroe

[icemanxp300]

So, I guess I imagined all this back and forth you were having prior to me weighing in where you repeatedly insisted that the hardest part was quick and easy. Funny, because I quoted the very things I must have imagined.

 

Are on you drugs? Seriously how the hell does me arguing how easy it is to remove a couple chips have anything to do with what people charge for this install, which is more work than just desoldering a few chips?

[SignGuy81]

Not at all. He’s being cautioned against telling everyone that it’s faster, easier, and cheaper to DIY than it really is and setting expectations such that people may overestimate their abilities. This can lead to expensive mistakes.

 

I think that mostly anyone who wonders whether or not they should DIY should evaluate that carefully. Anyone who has never done anything like this should probably shy away from it or practice first to develop reasonable expectations. It isn’t going to be fast and easy without a huge expense and it isn’t going to be cheap without practice, skill, time, and effort.

 

Well here is my thing. EDIT: Edited out some of what I just typed here because will get accused of bragging probably but I was just explaining my experience to you would know I have an understanding of both types. The same problems you explain is going to happen with a bulb type can happen with any type if a newb doesn't know what they are doing. Most the time it is because of pushing the tip down on the board instead of hovering over slightly. If tools are used properly no matter what then most likely bad things will not happen, and it is also even worse in my opinion to make it almost seem that you need to have a powered sucker desoldering iron when a newb could save some money and actually practice with a tool that DOES work before they fork out money for something that is faster.

Edited January 31, 2018 by SignGuy81

[icemanxp300]

Not at all. He’s being cautioned against telling everyone that it’s faster, easier, and cheaper to DIY than it really is and setting expectations such that people may overestimate their abilities. This can lead to expensive mistakes.

 

I think that mostly anyone who wonders whether or not they should DIY should evaluate that carefully. Anyone who has never done anything like this should probably shy away from it or practice first to develop reasonable expectations. It isn’t going to be fast and easy without a huge expense and it isn’t going to be cheap without practice, skill, time, and effort.

 

Well hell why do I even reply. You put enough words in my mouth for me.

[SignGuy81]

Also I would like to just say as well that if I were to hand any type of desoldering iron to someone who has never used one before and told them exactly how to use, and even showed them as well and then asked them to remove an IC with straight pins and also to desolder a couple resistors with leads bent over flush to the board I'd be more worried about the pads at the resistors.

[CZroe]

 

Seriously how the hell does me arguing how easy it is to remove a couple chips have anything to do with what people charge for this install, which is more work than just desoldering a few chips?

You tell me. You’re the one behaving like it’s the easy part and arguing against every step of the process from engineering to component sourcing/costs to qualification, assembly, distribution, installation, etc.

 

Anyone can cut a hole and remove screws. Heck, they sell replacement 72pin connectors for end users to self-install everywhere. End users would have had to cut the shell to access the expansion port if Nintendo had ever utilized it... and the extra, unused, expansion audio pin that they went out of their way to include on the PCB for Castlevania III Dracula’s Curse indicates that they were still considering it that late in the console’s life. Something tells me that GameTech and Kevtris aren’t going to start bagging DIY Hi-Def NES kits for retail sale just because you claim items easy.

 

If anything will lower the price, it’s economies of scale and the demand at the current price already indicates that there is room for that.

 

 

Well here is my thing. EDIT: Edited out some of what I just typed here because will get accused of bragging probably but I was just explaining my experience to you would know I have an understanding of both types. The same problems you explain is going to happen with a bulb type can happen with any type if a newb doesn't know what they are doing. Most the time it is because of pushing the tip down on the board instead of hovering over slightly. If tools are used properly no matter what then most likely bad things will not happen, and it is also even worse in my opinion to make it almost seem that you need to have a powered sucker desoldering iron when a newb could save some money and actually practice with a tool that DOES work before they fork out money for something that is faster.

I acknowledged this when I said that neither the Hakko FR300 nor the 808 allow for setting temps. I reiterated it when I said that even Jason of GameTech occasionally damages traces with a Hakko 808. I routinely encourage people to DIY but I still caution against sugar-coating it. Heck, I even offered to do it for free in person while they wait/watch:

...and here’s where Ichinisan (my twin brother) and I previously discussed using the bulb on my first install:

Both are from this thread:

http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?StartRow=511&catid=22&threadid=138177

I also discuss ways that would allow more potential end users to stay within their comfort zones, such as “pre modding” a console by doing all or most of the solder/desolder work if Jason could add a simple pin header to the kit.

 

I’ve done my fair share of encouraging DIYers but I’ve also purchased three failed installations from people who attempted to DIY and ended up losing a good bit of money. It’s important to set reasonable expectations and I don’t believe I’ve misrepresented it at all.

 

Also I would like to just say as well that if I were to hand any type of desoldering iron to someone who has never used one before and told them exactly how to use, and even showed them as well and then asked them to remove an IC with straight pins and also to desolder a couple resistors with leads bent over flush to the board I'd be more worried about the pads at the resistors.

Definitely, but even when they master that they probably aren’t ready to deal with a heat sinking ground plane that connects four DIP pins in a row. A resistor can be replaced and jumpered easily but dealing with stubborn pins on two 40 pin DIPs could lead to a lot of jumpers and some dead chips that are quite a bit harder to replace. Edited January 31, 2018 by CZroe

[SignGuy81]

I acknowledged this when I said that neither the Hakko FR300 nor the 808 allow for setting temps. I reiterated it when I said that even Jason of GameTech occasionally damages traces with a Hakko 808. I routinely encourage people to DIY but I still caution against sugar-coating it. Heck, I even offered to do it for free in person while they wait/watch:

 

 

https://www.hakko.com/english/products/hakko_fr300.html

 

 

 

Took me longer to find this image as most of the pics of it are the other side of it but here

 

pdf manual

https://www.hakkousa.com/files/index/download/id/15588/

Edited January 31, 2018 by SignGuy81

[icemanxp300]

You tell me. You’re the one behaving like it’s the easy part and arguing against every step of the process from engineering to component sourcing/costs to qualification, assembly, distribution, installation, etc.

 

Yes desoldering 2 chips with a Hakko FR-300 IS EASY and if it is not easy for you w/that tool then well you kind of suck at what you do.

I'm not letting you put words in my mouth no matter how many times you try to regurgitate the same shit you keep spitting out.

 

Would it be easy for someone to remove ANY chip w/out proper tools, no and I never said it was. Don't come in a conversation where I disagree with someone that using a desoldering gun doesn't make quick work of removing chips when it damn well does! Then try and tell me I said the chips can be easily removed via any method because that is NOT what I said and you damn well know it.

 

So now what are you arguing?

 

Cost of Labor?

Cost of Kit?

 

Split it up buddy. I have different opinions on them all.

 

If you are telling someone you need $50 to remove two chips because it takes you an hour when it takes someone w/proper tools just a few minutes then I am NOT sorry for letting the cat out of the bag.